phillipmike
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- Oct 27, 2009
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Blue Jays Discussion: post-deadline, back-at-home edition
- Thread starter The Nemesis
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Suntouchable13
Registered User
Why do so many people hate Buck Martinez, would you prefer to go back to Jim Hughson and Fergie Olver back from the 80s.
Suntouchable13
Registered User
Hate him? No, I just don’t like him as a play by play guy. Besides, my post was more about how surprised I am that Axford was somehow Jays property. I thought somebody posted a tweet from 2018 for some reason.
metafour
Registered User
- Apr 6, 2008
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Updated (Midseason) Baseball America Jays Top 30:
1) Gabriel Moreno
2) Alek Manoah
3) Nate Pearson
4) Orelvis Martinez
5) Jordan Groshans
6) Alejandro Kirk
7) Gunnar Hoglund
8) Otto Lopez
9) Miguel Hiraldo
10) Adam Kloffenstein
11) Manuel Beltre
12) Estiven Machado
13) Victor Mesia
14) Yhoangel Aponte
15) Luis Garcia (I'm 99% sure it's Luis Garcia, I just see "Garcia" on the Tweet)
16) Sem Robberse
17) Ricky Tiedemann
18) Irv Carter
19) Kevin Smith
20) CJ Van Eyk
21) Eric Pardinho
22) Thomas Hatch
23) Chad Dallas
24) Patrick Murphy
25) Samad Taylor
26) Leo Jimenez
27) Tanner Morris?
28) Rikelbin De Castro
29) Josh Palacios
30) Will Robertson
Super-heavy flavour of IFA signees, with Mesia, Aponte, and Garcia being big "up-arrow" guys from last year's signing class. I'm kind of shocked that they have Kevin Smith at just #19.
1) Gabriel Moreno
2) Alek Manoah
3) Nate Pearson
4) Orelvis Martinez
5) Jordan Groshans
6) Alejandro Kirk
7) Gunnar Hoglund
8) Otto Lopez
9) Miguel Hiraldo
10) Adam Kloffenstein
11) Manuel Beltre
12) Estiven Machado
13) Victor Mesia
14) Yhoangel Aponte
15) Luis Garcia (I'm 99% sure it's Luis Garcia, I just see "Garcia" on the Tweet)
16) Sem Robberse
17) Ricky Tiedemann
18) Irv Carter
19) Kevin Smith
20) CJ Van Eyk
21) Eric Pardinho
22) Thomas Hatch
23) Chad Dallas
24) Patrick Murphy
25) Samad Taylor
26) Leo Jimenez
27) Tanner Morris?
28) Rikelbin De Castro
29) Josh Palacios
30) Will Robertson
Super-heavy flavour of IFA signees, with Mesia, Aponte, and Garcia being big "up-arrow" guys from last year's signing class. I'm kind of shocked that they have Kevin Smith at just #19.
Given that his drop was based on one bad season as opposed to regular decline or something, and that now he's hitting better than ever, I would probably have Smith around Lopez/Hiraldo at the back end of the top 10. He's a bit older - just turned 25 - and he's probably a utility guy who can hit a little and play some SS, which is just fine. But he's been one of the best players in AAA this year, so there's probably still impact player upside there.
Pretty sure Manoah lost his prospect status.
Also not feeling so bad about Martin anymore since learning he apparently had some throwing issues and never really had the arm for the outfield. Still lots of interesting offensive infielders in the system.
This is the internet. We hate everybody. It's like our mantra or something.
And while Buck does has his moments, it's no worse than anyone else (no worse than other senior commentators, anyway), and a lot of the criticism you see directed at Buck has to do with matters of differing baseball philosophies more than anything else. I've seen other commentators make WAY more dumb comments.
The simple fact of the matter is, on the internet, the grass is always, ALWAYS greener on the other side.
If you've ever seen Buck do interviews away from TV, like on the radio or with Bob McCown, he's actually very critical of the team and does a much better job of explaining his opinion when he's not under the gun as team Yes-man. Certainly better than the armchair GMs around here who scream "STATS!" and think they've actually provided some kind of meaningful insight.
Also not feeling so bad about Martin anymore since learning he apparently had some throwing issues and never really had the arm for the outfield. Still lots of interesting offensive infielders in the system.
This is the internet. We hate everybody. It's like our mantra or something.
And while Buck does has his moments, it's no worse than anyone else (no worse than other senior commentators, anyway), and a lot of the criticism you see directed at Buck has to do with matters of differing baseball philosophies more than anything else. I've seen other commentators make WAY more dumb comments.
The simple fact of the matter is, on the internet, the grass is always, ALWAYS greener on the other side.
If you've ever seen Buck do interviews away from TV, like on the radio or with Bob McCown, he's actually very critical of the team and does a much better job of explaining his opinion when he's not under the gun as team Yes-man. Certainly better than the armchair GMs around here who scream "STATS!" and think they've actually provided some kind of meaningful insight.
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I dislike him because he rants about things he doesn't understand or is willing to understand.
A Shulman Siddle duo would be awesome.
Buck is losing the ability to track the ball and constantly harps about newer ideas that he disagrees with. It is very distracting when he ignores the current play to talk about his opinions or to start story time.
The thing is that no one disagrees that you can't effectively block a baseball on one knee.
Catchers don't use the stance for blocking.
No one wants to hear about George Brett randomly during games.
No one wants to hear why advanced stats suck (especially not from someone who has no fundamental understanding of how they work)
Catchers don't use the stance for blocking.
No one wants to hear about George Brett randomly during games.
No one wants to hear why advanced stats suck (especially not from someone who has no fundamental understanding of how they work)
Yeah, Smith is the ranking that stands out there.
Also, is there really that much difference between Otto Lopez and Samad Taylor? Same age, playing the same positions (2b-OF) at AA, and Taylor has an OPS 50 points higher.
saska sault
Registered User
I like Buck, hes old school sure but Id rather here baseball stories than advanced stats. I don't watch the game to hear how stats will make decisions for ball clubs rather than the old fashion eye test and scouting.
Suntouchable13
Registered User
It’s not even that, he is not a play by play guy. If you listen to Dan then Buck, you can tell there is a huge difference in quality. Hey man, I like him in the “watching a baseball game with your grandpa” kinda way.
There is nothing wrong with using the eye test to see what advanced stats don't. There are plenty of gaps in them (especially when it comes to fielding and defense)
I dont think that the broadcast should cram stats down your throat, but I want to hear about THIS team, not the Reds and Royals teams of yesteryear.
barilko05
NHL FAN
- Jan 28, 2011
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Agreed. PBP has never been Buck's strength. Shulman should be our full time guy with Buck on commentary. But I don't think he wants to go back on the road. Moved back home for family (I believe) and I'm sure that's not going to change soon. As for Tabler...I'm sure he is a nice guy, but he's about as "colourful" as a polar bear in a snowstorm. Him and Buck together...that is yawnfest of the highest order. I think Buck might be better to take as a PBP if the "colour" guy had a bit more of a modern take, as a contrast, and had a bit of personality too.
Buck is ok. Shulman, is great. Those 2 should do the broadcasts. 3-person crews are a bit much. Tabler?...Dim-witted, relies on Buck to soft toss questions his way. I like Sidell but i prefer his in-studio critique where it is now. Don't want to complain too much, cuz I realize how it could be after that youtube broadcast.
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
After he started doing the studio work for the Jays he ended up getting the call from Baseball Canada to pitch some of their Olympic qualifying games and by most accounts did really well. So the Jays signed him to a minor league deal to see if he could make the comeback all the way to MLB. That deal had a clause or understanding that though the Jays signed him, they wouldn't stand in the way of another MLB team came looking and offering him a path back to the bigs. Apparently the Brewers did that and so the Jays facilitated the move to Milwaukee for him for minimal compensation just so the deal could go through. And that's when he got hurt in his first outing like the tweet I posted mentioned.
There are several reasons. Though I don't think people "hate" Buck specifically/personally. Just dislike him as a significant broadcast voice for the team.
But the why comes down to
1) He seems increasingly disengaged with what's happening in the games. The long, tangential discussions while play is going on are a big part of this, as is the fact that he often seems to get fooled or confused by how plays unfold. Not just calling HRs on balls that die 20 feet before the wall, but he will lock himself into descriptions of how plays unfold that are simply patently untrue (calling guys out when they're safe, suggesting someone was/wasn't in a position to make a play when the opposite is true, even the basic physical elements of the play, such as him repeatedly discussing Vladdy's HR on Monday as if it was just barely fair when really it went over the wall closer to CF than to the LF foul pole. He's even hit the point where he will repeatedly misidentify players on the Blue Jays) When your job as the play-by-play is to call the game, being able to call it accurately should be the highest priority.
Some of this feels like it's because he came up as a broadcaster and spent the bulk of his career as color commentator. He's been trained/bred for that role and as a play-by-play man he tends to lapse quite hard into color man tendencies when given the opportunity.
2) The repeated rants about things that stick in his craw. One-knee catcher stances, shifting, a lack of small ball, strikeouts, pitch counts, closer mythologizing... There's a long list of things that Buck is extremely passionate about to the extent that he will launch into diatribes about them at ANY given opportunity. And now after several years of that it's getting old hearing every single game about how awful it is that catchers catch on one knee now or how batters today are idiots because they don't just hit it away from the shift (the "it's just that easy!" implications always seem a bit disingenuous coming from a career .225 hitter). It's fine if he says his piece once or twice over a season when it's really important. But we're almost to the point where literally every single passed ball a catcher surrenders because of a one-knee catching stance launches Buck into the same rant with the same ferocity as if it was the very first time he was seeing it happen.
3) The anti-stats bent. I get it. advanced stats and fancier analytics are not for everyone. He doesn't have to use them in the broadcast to any significant degree if he doesn't wish to. That's fine. But where it becomes troublesome is that even if he dislikes using the stats, he should not be arguing so vociferously against them or mocking/putting down their value to the audience that either a)likes those things or b) hasn't learned about them yet but should probably not be biased against them by someone who shows their complete lack of understanding every time they open their mouth on the subject. The fact that he can scoff at WAR or OPS or whatnot then turns around and talks about how valuable pitcher wins or RBIs are as a measure and predictor of judging player skill/performance is a huge strike against him. As it is when he brushes off statistical arguments with appeals to vague junk like intangibles or "the will to win" in a way that pretty much boils down to "these things let me paint the narrative however I want, so they're great!"
The Nemesis
Semper Tyrannus
So maybe if this has been bothering him most of the year that would explain why he's struggled so much
Clark4Ever
What we do in hockey echoes in eternity...
Man Bear Pig
Registered User
When he came back he seemed like he was hitting again. That didnt last long. I'm guessing this is gonna be something that doesnt go away this season.
dredeye
BJ Elitist/Hipster
- Mar 3, 2008
- 27,110
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I was thinking this might finally be the chance for Smith but I forgot Dickerson was up yesterday.
I understand what biggio is going through. Back and pain never really goes away. I have been dealing with that most of my life
Oh, for sure that's a knock on him but the lack of power is a knock on Lopez.
Not saying Lopez isn't better but it seems like they should be 8th and 14th or something, not 8th and 25th.
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