News Article: Possibly Kronwall's Last Season in the NHL

[newfy]

He was no where near a real #1, he was still meh defensively (he never was a stalwart), and his points never made up for it. He was a fine stopgap, but on a good team he was always a #2 or #3.

Disagree. He finished 10th, 13th and 14th in Norris voting 3 years in a row. He was never a top of the league number 1 like a Weber or Doughty back then but he was legit all siutations number 1 dman. Put up 40-50 points and despite what you might say was still very solid defensively. Wings fans were just spoiled by a top 5 all time dman for 20 years before him, there werent many dmen better than Kronwall in the league. He was at worst top 25 but usually voted on here in the late teens or very early 20s

If he was your number 2 dman your defense was absolutely elite (like the wings in 08). He was definitely not a #3, thats outrageous

 

[Shaman464]

Disagree. He finished 10th, 13th and 14th in Norris voting 3 years in a row. He was never a top of the league number 1 like a Weber or Doughty back then but he was legit all siutations number 1 dman. Put up 40-50 points and despite what you might say was still very solid defensively. Wings fans were just spoiled by a top 5 all time dman for 20 years before him, there werent many dmen better than Kronwall in the league. He was at worst top 25 but usually voted on here in the late teens or very early 20s

If he was your number 2 dman your defense was absolutely elite (like the wings in 08). He was definitely not a #3, thats outrageous

Anything below top 8 or 9 in Norris voting are usually a single vote, usually third place. Over those three years you mention his peak was 1.85% of the vote and a combined 1 first place vote.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Anything below top 8 or 9 in Norris voting are usually a single vote, usually third place. Over those three years you mention his peak was 1.85% of the vote and a combined 1 first place vote.

So he wasn't a Norris caliber D-man... That isn't the same thing as a #1.

Kronwall was a top 15 D-man in the league for several years, he was a #1 D-man relied on to do all aspects of the game and did a good job doing it. #1 D-man and Norris or supremely elite D-man are different things for several people... He was a top pairing level D-man in the league for nearly a decade, played a #1 role well in the immediate aftermath of Lidstrom. Kronwall a lot like Osgood in my opinion is really underrated in terms of how Wings fans treat them in my opinion.

 

[ChelisChiliBar]

Kronner was most certainly a #1 defenseman in his prime. The only thing about him that was second-pairing level was his cap hit.

 

[SCD]

Kronwall a lot like Osgood in my opinion is really underrated in terms of how Wings fans treat them in my opinion.

Agreed

It is tough to look good when the bar is set by Lidstrom.

 

[Goalie guy]

It's sad to see our old core getting old. Thanks for all the hits happy he was here, It's time to move on.

 

[Snuggs]

If we are out of the playoffs around the deadline and Kronwall agrees to a move I wonder what he could fetch at the TDL? I’d be very pleased with a conditional 3rd.

Yeah I think that's generous honestly. He'll get a Robbie Russo like return... Conditional 6th or 7th round pick if he's even moved at all. Kronwall will only be moved if he wants to basically, I can almost guarantee that Holland wouldn't move him without his consent, or to a team that's barely in the playoff picture. An even still teams will likely pay up for Trevor Daley vs getting an injury riddled Kronwall. I can't see real contenders like the Lighting/Toronto/Penguins/Sharks/Nashville I mean... Idk I just can't see them wanting Kronwall real bad vs other players available and I doubt we trade him to a fringe playoff team like Carolina/Florida Panthers.

I like the telegraph... Fans will be able to give him his just do for the season.

 

[Henkka]

Yeah I think that's generous honestly. He'll get a Robbie Russo like return... Conditional 6th or 7th round pick if he's even moved at all. Kronwall will only be moved if he wants to basically, I can almost guarantee that Holland wouldn't move him without his consent, or to a team that's barely in the playoff picture. An even still teams will likely pay up for Trevor Daley vs getting an injury riddled Kronwall. I can't see real contenders like the Lighting/Toronto/Penguins/Sharks/Nashville I mean... Idk I just can't see them wanting Kronwall real bad vs other players available and I doubt we trade him to a fringe playoff team like Carolina/Florida Panthers.

I like the telegraph... Fans will be able to give him his just do for the season.

That's a total underestimation for an experienced vet like Kronwall. Those are more valuable at the deadline.

Different question is, does he want to move.

 

[Bondurant]

I don't care how Kronwall compares to others. Dude is a legitimate Red Wings legend.

 

[newfy]

Anything below top 8 or 9 in Norris voting are usually a single vote, usually third place. Over those three years you mention his peak was 1.85% of the vote and a combined 1 first place vote.

The year he finished 10th he had 2 second place votes, 1 third place vote, 3 fourth place votes and 5 fifth place votes. Playing at a 50 point pace, finished 7th in defensive scoring, led the defense in ice time by over 3 mins a game (played over 24 a game which was good for top 20 in the league), played the second most on the team short handed, the most on the PP and the most at even strength. Not sure what more you could ask for out of a number 1 dman. Better defense I guess but if you got that out of Kronwall he would be a legit norris contender. He wasnt Lidstrom but he was very solid

So no thats more than just one vote. He had 11 total votes in the top 5 so he was obviously doing something to garner attention around the league. Like I said, he was never a Norris calibre guy, but he was a legit number 1 for a few years after Lidstrom left. He was closer to being a norris guy than a number 3 dman thats for sure

 

[Henkka]

10th best in total points 3 seasons combined after Lidström retired (2012-13, 2013-14, 2014-15). Best example how good he was and proved how he just wasn't "carried" by Lidström. He had 3 great seasons on his own.

Kronner was TOP10 defenceman on that time and probably before, not just at #1D duty. On Lidström's final seasons, Kronwall-Stuart was already playing a shut-down role and Lidström got easier secondary matchups. That did eat Kronner's point total for Lidström's favor. But that way team was constructed better.

Versus his caphit, on many seasons Kronwall was one of the best bargains on last decade.

Knees have been hurting on latest season, but it's still fun to find some advanced stats and see how he is still clearly the best passer from our back end. Hands and hockey-IQ are working, if legs are not.

I think Kronwall is definitely worth of his actual salary, which is 1.75M for this last season. Great vet to have in 3rd pair.

 

[Shaman464]

10th best in total points 3 seasons combined after Lidström retired (2012-13, 2013-14, 2014-15).

He was TOP10 defenceman on that time and proably before, not just at #1D duty.

Versus his caphit, on many seasons Kronwall was one of the best bargains on last decade.

I would agree he was a bargain player, but that doesn't make him a number one D-man. His defense was never that good and it was worse when he stopped playing physically. This is backed up by the advanced stats that show he was never a great driver of possession, and played very sheltered minutes (54% O-zone starts career, and very stable seasons to season).

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I would be curious to see what 30 defensemen were considered better than Kronwall during his best seasons.

 

[Henkka]

NHL.com - Stats

16th most in Total points from 2007-08 season to 2015-16.

 

[newfy]

NHL.com - Stats

16th most in Total points from 2007-08 season to 2015-16.

Yep, and about 5 of those guys were worse defensively that are ahead of him. Kronwall was absolutely a number one guy for at least about 3 seasons. If he didnt play a lot of his prime with Lidstrom he would've been viewed as one for even longer than that

 

[HIFE]

One of my favorite patented Kronwall plays was his short, back handed sauce passes on the PP. Datsyuk would circle up toward the point, Kronwall would make a small move to his right against a defender and then "bop", the nicest most level backhand aerial pass you've ever seen. It worked like a charm every time, even multiple times a game.

It's sad how quickly Kronner regressed but I'm glad fans can remember how great he was in his prime.

 

[SCD]

This is backed up by the advanced stats that show he was never a great driver of possession, and played very sheltered minutes (54% O-zone starts career, and very stable seasons to season).

This is where using advanced stats to try to support an indefensible position is ridiculous. Sheltered minutes.....please.
The offensive zone starts have more to do with creating offense, like starting the power play in the offensive zone.
Who was always on the ice at the end of a game when they were trying to protect a lead?

 

[Snuggs]

That's a total underestimation for an experienced vet like Kronwall. Those are more valuable at the deadline.

Different question is, does he want to move.

I mean he's not exactly healthy. They're buying damaged goods, if you're the other team.

An yeah I pointed that out kinda but totally agree with your question. Would he want to leave, doubt it, but even if he did he's likely to have a list... I don't think this team will or would trade away a Red Wings legend during the 25 year playoff run; Unless he wants a shot at a cup and we're not in playoff contention at all.

 

[Frk It]

I would agree he was a bargain player, but that doesn't make him a number one D-man. His defense was never that good and it was worse when he stopped playing physically. This is backed up by the advanced stats that show he was never a great driver of possession, and played very sheltered minutes (54% O-zone starts career, and very stable seasons to season).

If you watched some of the top defenseman in the league you would see most of them have their nights like that too. Playing 25 min a night for 82 games is rough. I live in Pittsburgh, and I think Letang is a damn good defenseman, but he has his nights where he’s just brutal.

Honestly a lot of the offensive guys in the league are like that. And the guys who aren’t like that (Suter, Pieterangelo, etc) never get their dues (IMO).

 

[Shaman464]

This is where using advanced stats to try to support an indefensible position is ridiculous. Sheltered minutes.....please.
The offensive zone starts have more to do with creating offense, like starting the power play in the offensive zone.
Who was always on the ice at the end of a game when they were trying to protect a lead?

For most of Kronwalls peak? Lidstrom. And funny how when Kronwall became top D there was only one season the team didn't have a higher goals for than against. And the advance stats say that his best season were the ones where he was playing behind Lidstrom. All but one of his worst have come since moving to the top position.

 

[Hatter of the Beach]

Past few years of Kronwall have been hard to watch. Much like Cleary, I think his last few seasons will make a lot of people and common fans forget how good he was at one point. Probably peaked as a top 20 D in the league

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

For most of Kronwalls peak? Lidstrom. And funny how when Kronwall became top D there was only one season the team didn't have a higher goals for than against. And the advance stats say that his best season were the ones where he was playing behind Lidstrom. All but one of his worst have come since moving to the top position.

Again I guess it depends on how you are using the terms. When Fedorov played #1C did you say Yzerman wasn't one? Was the fact that Zetterberg was our most trusted defensive center drawing Toews, Getzlaf, Crosby and whatever the actual #1 center was on the other team make Datsyuk a #2 C? My guess is that is a no. For almost a decade Kronwall was a #1D talent and he was deployed in that role for a decent stretch. List whatever caveat you want to downgrade it, just don't expect many to agree with it.

 

[Shaman464]

Again I guess it depends on how you are using the terms. When Fedorov played #1C did you say Yzerman wasn't one? Was the fact that Zetterberg was our most trusted defensive center drawing Toews, Getzlaf, Crosby and whatever the actual #1 center was on the other team make Datsyuk a #2 C? My guess is that is a no. For almost a decade Kronwall was a #1D talent and he was deployed in that role for a decent stretch. List whatever caveat you want to downgrade it, just don't expect many to agree with it.

And I disagree because he, as a middle pairing D-man played sheltered minutes. And when he did play in the top role he put up some of his worst possession and defensive stats. Playing behind a Lidstrom really gave him a lot more room for error. In the end my argument is, and always will be that he was a #2 guy pushed into a number #1 position, and never really excelled at it. And the team stats, and advanced stats both point to this being the case.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

What were these sheltered minutes? You talked about his oZS% being over 50%, but what was that compared to his teammates?

From 2012-2013 to 2015-2016 he was 18th, 22nd, 23rd, and 15th among all skaters. 6th, 5th, 4th, and 3rd among defensemen who actually played a good chunk of each season.

I think if you want to argue him being sheltered, you have to provide something substantive to demonstrate it.

 

[newfy]

And I disagree because he, as a middle pairing D-man played sheltered minutes. And when he did play in the top role he put up some of his worst possession and defensive stats. Playing behind a Lidstrom really gave him a lot more room for error. In the end my argument is, and always will be that he was a #2 guy pushed into a number #1 position, and never really excelled at it. And the team stats, and advanced stats both point to this being the case.

So when the really good player goes from the number 2 dman to the number 1 dman and has to pick up Lidstroms slack with a much worse supporting cast than Lidstrom, he put up some of his worst stats? Thats somehow not surprising to me at all