Possible return of the Quebec Nordiques?

[kdb209]

The issue isn't that Winninpeg and QC don't "deserve" NHL teams -- we're explaining to the Maple-Leaf waving, flag-draped Canadians the economic realities of why they won't be the next cities to get relocated teams... and what we get in response is "nyah nyah nyah, I can't HEEEEARRRR you because Canada's hockey knowledge is 1337 yo".

The economics of the situation (a relocated team, a ready-made arena with suitable capacity, and the potential to make money) dictate that Winnipeg is #4 on the relocation list (#5 if and when QC were to ever get a suitably sized arena), and QC is completely and totally out of the running until they get an arena... and then they'll still have missed out on opportunities #1 and #2 -- because by then, any owner selling or moving will have taken the opportunities offered by the already-built arena in Houston, and the arena in KC that will be built several years before the first layer of ice could be dreamed of in QC. Portland, I'm iffy on -- Allen has been really quiet of late, and the Rose Garden might be a good facility, but the arena ownership/lease situation still strikes me as a bit hinky. But with brand-new arenas and motivated interest, Houston and KC, with their larger capacities and corporate bases, will beat Winnipeg hands down, every single time, because it is GUARANTEED that a team there will be in the bottom third in the league in attendance.

IF, by some thunderstroke, no team has relocated by the time a mythical QC arena were to be constructed, then that situation could be revisited... but not UNTIL THEN.

You don't have to like it. You can curse Bettman and Southern expansion all you like. But these are simple, cold, hard, economic facts. Alexander is not going to buy a team to put in Winnipeg. Anschutz is not going to enable Baldwin or some other owner to buy a team and put them in QC.

How much clearer can it be made to you people? Money talks. Period. And right now, it's promises and dreams in QC, and an impossibility in Winnipeg. Within five years, one or both of KC and Houston will have teams -- and unless both of them already have them, Winnipeg will still be stuck with the AHL.

Very well put.

To clarify the Portland situation - Paul Allen is out of the picture, which is actually good news, since he was the single biggest impediment to expansion/relocation to Portland. He had publically stated an antipathy to the NHL, and as long as he controlled the Rose Garden, you weren't going to see the NHL in Portland.

This past January, Paul Allen gave up control of the Rose Garden through bankruptcy. The company he set up to finance, build, and operate the Rose Garden declared bankruptcy to get out from onerous construction debt. Control of the Rose Garden passed to the creditors/bond holders who hired a subsidiary of Comcast/SMG to operate the arena (and to look for more tenants and to fill more dates) - yes the same Comcast/SMG that owns the Flyers, operates the <whatever the new Spectrum is called these days>, and owns OLN. Paul Allen's Trailblazers are now just tenants in the Rose Garden, with potentially the worst lease in professional sports - all of the Luxury Box, Advertising, Parking, and most other non-gate revenues passed to the new arena owners/operator.

I had Portland handicapped as the #1 in the relocation derby until Les Alexander (owner of the Houston Rockets and primary leaseholder of the new Toyota Center) stepped up as a potential owner - a bigger market with an owner who already controls a building. Houston jumped to the top of my list.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

It's great to hear about how hockey is taking a foothold in Dallas as a solid sport for the region. I'm guessing the Stars organization has a lot to do with this, especially with building arena complexes.

Are other teams in non-traditional hockey markets doing something similar, or is Dallas an anomally?

PS. 1/10 of Houston's population would probably be economically equal to the entire QC population. NHL needs 36 teams for there to be teams in QC and the Peg. That's too bad, I really liked the Nords, they were a fun team to watch, and the fans passionate.

I don't believe the Canes are doing it to the extent the Stars are (and anybody who's lived in the Raleigh area longer than I have, feel free to chime in), but they are sponsoring youth leagues - for instance the pee-wee team I mentioned earlier was sponsored by the Hurricanes and they do a good job of encouraging local teams by having youth matches in between periods of the games. And, as previously stated, I know NC State, UNC, and Duke all have club teams (don't know if Wake Forest has one or not.

 

[Troy McClure]

Are other teams in non-traditional hockey markets doing something similar, or is Dallas an anomally?

I don't really know. I hope so. I know Phoenix has started copying the Stars model.

 

[baston]

I am 100% with you that if we don't build a new arena in Quebec, there is absolutely no chance we'll ever see another NHL team.

As long as Winnipeg is concerned, I always thought that their new arena was too small, but I think they could make it bigger if an NHL team was to move.

Winnipeg people, correct me if I'm wrong.

Anyways, about Pittsburgh, where is Cuban? He's from the area right? Didn't he want to buy the Pengs? He's got the pockets to do it, and with Crosby, this team is probably the most valuable on the market.

 

[jamiebez]

I am 100% with you that if we don't build a new arena in Quebec, there is absolutely no chance we'll ever see another NHL team.

As long as Winnipeg is concerned, I always thought that their new arena was too small, but I think they could make it bigger if an NHL team was to move.

Winnipeg people, correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, since you asked .....

The existing structure could probably squeeze in more luxury boxes (perhaps another 20) as "skyboxes" in the rafters, on the side opposite the press boxes. Capacity could also be increased by allowing more people in the existing suites (Ottawa has done this starting this year). There is no room for any more seating in the existing bowl - upper or lower - and the back of the upper bowl goes right to the wall, so there's no real room for standing room. Long story short, you could get another 500-1000 people in there, tops, with the existing structure.

Having said that, raising the roof of the building and expanding out is an option. This would easily allow 17000+, but it would take:
a) time - you'd likely cut into the beginning of the season for at least a month or two.
b) space - the city would have to look at annexing at least part of Hargrave or Graham
c) money - a similar idea was estimated at around $60M for the old Winnipeg Arena.

Also (since I'm posting anyway) there are actually the equivalent of 50 luxury suites in the building - there are 2 double sized "party suites" that can be configured as 2 "boxes" each if so desired.

 

[HansH]

That's interesting information, jamiebez -- thanks for sharing it. If that expansion were to take place, Winnipeg might move up in the relo derby handicapping, but I would argue that it would have to be done BEFORE a team came -- or at the very least have the financing signed, sealed, and delivered (without NHL team involvement), before they moved into the top three. JMO, of course.

 

[Troy McClure]

Anyways, about Pittsburgh, where is Cuban? He's from the area right? Didn't he want to buy the Pengs? He's got the pockets to do it, and with Crosby, this team is probably the most valuable on the market.

He owns the Dallas Mavericks and puts all of his time into them. I don't think he wants to own another team in another city.

 

[DaveG]

He owns the Dallas Mavericks and puts all of his time into them. I don't think he wants to own another team in another city.

kindof OT but he has expressed interest in buying the Pittsburgh Pirates. The real question is, is Cuban a hockey fan?

 

[baston]

Well, Cuban is a hockey fan. In fact, he already tried to buy the Pens a couple of years ago and said, like, 2 or 3 months ago on off the record that he's still interested in getting a team in his hometown. Now, with Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, maybe Kesler, that team really, really is interesting .


http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1171860/bio

"Attempted to buy the Pittsburgh Penguins hockey club in the late 1990s."

 

[baston]

Also, http://www.tsn.ca/nba/news_story.asp?id=142326

Cuban also attempted to buy into a Pittsburgh sports team before purchasing the Mavericks, talking with Mario Lemieux's ownership group as it was buying the NHL's then-bankrupt Pittsburgh Penguins in 1999. But the group wanted Lemieux to be the face and voice of the organization, and was unwilling to allow Cuban to play an active role in the team's day-to-day operations.

 

[jamiebez]

That's interesting information, jamiebez -- thanks for sharing it. If that expansion were to take place, Winnipeg might move up in the relo derby handicapping, but I would argue that it would have to be done BEFORE a team came -- or at the very least have the financing signed, sealed, and delivered (without NHL team involvement), before they moved into the top three. JMO, of course.

I don't know that it would need to be done before... I mean Ottawa got an expansion team knowing they'd have to play in the 10,000 seat Civic Centre for almost 3 years. I think the question is: how fast could it be done? If you can do the construction in an off-season (June-October is about 4 months), then I don't think it would be an obstruction at all.

Having said that, I doubt it happens at all... I think they'll get creative and shoehorn another 500-1000 people in there.

One comment on your earlier post: I don't disagree with ranking Winnipeg #4 on your list, but referring to it as "an impossibility" in a is a bit over the top for me. I just don't think that's a fair statement. I don't want to go into it in too much detail (for risk of hijacking this thread even further), but I believe there are a lot factors that make Winnipeg a prime relocation destination for economic reasons, not just emotional ones.

 

[baston]

Well, in Québec, we got "Le Colisée" that can do the job while we build a brand new arena

 

[Troy McClure]

Even if Mark Cuban bought the team, he probably wouldn't keep them there without a new arena.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

the next city to get a team will be houston.

houston has a fine history in hockey and is somewhat an international city. it's also a tremendous live gate/ corporate ticket market. and it has the best stadium around.



bank on it- it will be houston.

The only reason Houston isn't in the NHL now is the Aeros already exist and Alexander has the audacity to not allow that team to play in Houston if he so desired since he technically owns the lease to allow the Aeros to play in Houston nor does Les own the Aeros either and Alexander is a pawn/thorn in the AHL's side cause the Aeros have to submit to choice of dates @ Toyota Center after Les' teams have their pick

 

[puckhead103*]

Unfortunately you're right...I so much want to see the return of the Nordiques, or the Jets, but the reality is that money hungry NHL owners will move to where the money is, and that is in Houston or Kansas City It sucks to say it IMO, but there is little chance we'll be seeing the Quebec Nordiques once Pittsburgh moves

i hate to say it but with the salary cap increasing every year with increased revenues...i'll bet the flames and the oil may relocate in another 5 years......

 

[Bucky_Hoyt]

I've been reading these posts for a while now and finally decided to sign up.

As for the case of the Penguins relocating (even if this is about Quebec city getting a team - which would likely be the Pens over any other) I don't get the logic in moving to a market where they would still have to build a new arena. The Pens are already losing money at home with their outdated building why would they want to continue losing money in a different city while they are still waiting for a new building? Wouldn't they end up just losing more since they'd have to pay to move the team on top of the annual losses they are already incurring?

Kansas City, Houston, Portland, Oklahoma City, New Orleans, and Cleveland either have new - or are in the process of building new - arenas that can seat at least 17,000 for Hockey plus have luxury suites. They are also all CMA's of over 1 million - well New Orleans might not be now - in population and in today's sports market CMA's matter just as much as the facilities and TV contracts do.

I don't think a lot of people want to see a team like the Pens leave but if they did, I think Quebec would place about 10th on the NHLBG's priority list regardless of the potential for sell-outs. They might not move teams but they do approve/veto the final transactions. Do I know the NHLBG members on a personal basis, no I don't, but judging from how franchises have moved or have been awarded in the last 10 years the NHL won't go to any city under 1 million in pop. or to a building under 17,000.

 

[Tokyo Bucks]

I don't get it. How did Cuban fail to buy the Pens? He certainly could afford it (especially in the bubbly late 90s), and the Pens were always in financial trouble, no?

 

[AdmiralPred]

I don't get it. How did Cuban fail to buy the Pens? He certainly could afford it (especially in the bubbly late 90s), and the Pens were always in financial trouble, no?

Maybe he figured it was a bad investment. Besides, given his personality and the times, the NBA was a good fit.

The only reason Houston isn't in the NHL now is the Aeros already exist and Alexander has the audacity to not allow that team to play in Houston if he so desired since he technically owns the lease to allow the Aeros to play in Houston nor does Les own the Aeros either and Alexander is a pawn/thorn in the AHL's side cause the Aeros have to submit to choice of dates @ Toyota Center after Les' teams have their pick

I'm sure that that isn't THE only reason Houston isn't in the NHL now. Given the NBA's status compared to the AHL, I am sure the NBA and any major concert event is going to trump the AHL in terms of scheduling. To an extent, the same happens at the Bradley Center in Milwaukee with the NBA's Bucks, NCAA Marquette, and the Admirals of the AHL. It's just a pecking order, something I am sure the AHL can live with since their franchises aren't the prime tenants of those facilities.

 

[Transported Upstater]

Do you still keep one shirt for special occasions?

LOL!!!!


Nah, I think NASCAR is the dumbest thing in the history of humanity, so I wear shirts

Which is a good thing, because with my frailty, I'm not going to be on the cover of any magazine any time soon...

 

[Squiddy*]

lol.. yeah right... the quebec nordiques? you poor quebecers are getting sucked in by the media. They aren't comming back, but I bet you'll read the beat writers next article.

 

[rwilson99]

lol.. yeah right... the quebec nordiques? you poor quebecers are getting sucked in by the media. They aren't comming back, but I bet you'll read the beat writers next article.

That's the real story here. With nothing else but the Moose to write about what's a writer to do... find facts... or fuel nonsensical speculation.