Possible cheap partial solution to defense

[CanadianFlyer88]

Mitchell and Scuderi wer both deemed so superfluous they were practically thrown away by Nucks and Pens. How good are they, really??

Thrown away? The Canucks were worried about both Micthell's age combined with his concussion history, so they weren't willing to pay him $3.5M/year. Scuderi became unafforadable for the Penguins because he was looking for a serious raise (ended up getting 5x his previous salary with the Kings) coming off an invaluable performance in Pittsburgh's Cup run.

OK let's get specific. How much better are Mitchell are Scuderi than Schenn and Grossman?

All four seem to slot into the same category and skill level: defensively responsible stay at home guys .

The only difference being the first two get to play with superstar Doughty (not saying they play on the same pairing, but on the same team), while our two get to play with Meszaros and Coburn.

Mitchell and Scuderi are both significantly more consistent than Grossmann and Schenn. The advantage that Grossmann and Schenn have is youth, so they have time to become the players that Mitchell and Scuderi are now.

Mitchell and Scuderi both had league-wide respect for their abilities long before they wore the same uniform as Doughty. Grossmann and Schenn certainly aren't there yet.

 

[feedingschennzy]

I've brought this up a few times without much response but I'm just curious as to why as we consider various young stud RFA defensemen, Michael Del Zotto's name hasn't come up. It seems, in my opinion to make perfect sense to the flyers, as contract talks seem to have stalled and he could fill an important void for us going forward. A young defensive pairing of Schenn-Del Z may not be anything legendary, but will be sufficient in years to come, and I think we should think about an offer sheet for the following reasons:

1) The Rangers have a lot of money tied up in Richards and Nash, nearly 20% of their payroll in a 63 million dollar cap next year will go to two players. Money may not be tight yet for them but it certainly is getting close.
2) In the 2014 and 2015 off seasons, New York will see a plethora of star players looking for new contracts.

2014: Stepan, Hagelin, and McDonagh are all slated to become RFA's and will be commanding more money than their current contracts.

2015: Krieder will be an RFA, while Gaborik, Callahan, Boyle, Girardi, and most importantly Lundqvist are all slated to become UFA's. While I could surely see Gaborik walking or taking a massive pay-cut, those other names will all be receiving contracts that are at least as much if not more (Krieder, Girardi, Callahan) than they currently make.

Essentially what it comes down to is do the Rangers value Del Zotto enough to risk losing McDonagh or Krieder? I'm not entirely sure.

2) The convention around the league is that offer sheets create bad blood between GM's and teams, and that they are frowned upon. But as the flyers, why should we owe it to help out the Rangers when our prime need is sitting in their office with stalled negotiations? If it were another team I may hesitate, but arguably our largest rival? I don't see why not.

3) Given their financial issues, an offer sheet may not have to be even that substantial for them to relinquish him to us. Something like 4 years at 4.5 a year could actually get the job done, and if it doesn't and they sign him, thats a large chunk of cash that they cannot spend on their other free agents.

So while the odds of this happening are slim, for me, an offer sheet to New York is at least worth thinking about instead of Kulikov or Subban.

 

[Snotbubbles]

How about Wade Redden if NYR eat half the salary?

 

[FlyersFan61290]

How about Wade Redden if NYR eat half the salary?

think he's got 2 yrs left. they'd have to eat more then half imo for the flyers to take him for 2 yrs.

if the flyers really need the help i would look elsewhere.

 

[JoeLassister]

What do you guys think will the pairing look like this season ?

 

[OrangeAndBlackMetal]

what would you guys think about Kent Huskins on a 1 year deal?

 

[Flyman]

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/01/10/sports/doc50ef9bc073b41302670243.txt

Looks like the Flyers are having an interest in UFA defenseman Kurtis Foster....Not sure it's the kind of puck mover we are looking to. Hard shot but quite lacks the required mobility since injured a leg back in 2008 I think.

 

[FlyersFan61290]

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/01/10/sports/doc50ef9bc073b41302670243.txt

Looks like the Flyers are having an interest in UFA defenseman Kurtis Foster....Not sure it's the kind of puck mover we are looking to. Hard shot but quite lacks the required mobility since injured a leg back in 2008 I think.

Yeah there a thread for this I think but it was just a rumor. Ths is the first that I've actually seen it written down (other then HFboards of course).

 

[rban*]

If Flyers dont go for a stud Dman, the type of Dman they need to target is someone with significant offensive ability. Timo is really the only one that has that now and he'll be retiring or declining.

Meszaros and Coburn have some offensive ability but not consisitently.

Most of our dman seem to fit the profile of big strong hard hitting and stay at home defensiveyl responsible. Thinking mostly of Grossman and Schenn here.

If we're not gonna nab a total stud (and i dont see one abaialble now) we need someone with great offensive skills. Or at least very good offensive skills. Edler would be nice.

Given the Rags contract situations coming up, might make sense to target the most offensively gifted of that defense group they have, I dont know enough about them to know who fits that bill tho....

 

[flyersfan187]

If Flyers dont go for a stud Dman, the type of Dman they need to target is someone with significant offensive ability. Timo is really the only one that has that now and he'll be retiring or declining.

Meszaros and Coburn have some offensive ability but not consisitently.

Most of our dman seem to fit the profile of big strong hard hitting and stay at home defensiveyl responsible. Thinking mostly of Grossman and Schenn here.

If we're not gonna nab a total stud (and i dont see one abaialble now) we need someone with great offensive skills. Or at least very good offensive skills. Edler would be nice.

Given the Rags contract situations coming up, might make sense to target the most offensively gifted of that defense group they have, I dont know enough about them to know who fits that bill tho....

Which is what is surprising to me. You would think Homer would want to build a team around Lavy's system right? His system requires a lot of mobility in the d-men and youth (because they take a pounding). I honestly think this team is going to miss Carle. The guy played solid minutes for us and was rarely ever out of position.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

If Flyers dont go for a stud Dman, the type of Dman they need to target is someone with significant offensive ability. Timo is really the only one that has that now and he'll be retiring or declining.

Meszaros and Coburn have some offensive ability but not consisitently.

Most of our dman seem to fit the profile of big strong hard hitting and stay at home defensiveyl responsible. Thinking mostly of Grossman and Schenn here.

If we're not gonna nab a total stud (and i dont see one abaialble now) we need someone with great offensive skills. Or at least very good offensive skills. Edler would be nice.

Given the Rags contract situations coming up, might make sense to target the most offensively gifted of that defense group they have, I dont know enough about them to know who fits that bill tho....

I think you are underestimating L. Schenn here. His numbers, particularly his advanced stats, would have you believe that he's actually been a bit better offensively than defensively over the last couple of years. He is certainly every bit as offensively gifted as Coburn imho.

Overall though, a guy like Edler next offseason makes a ton of sense. A pairing of Edler and Coburn would be incredibly balanced.... as would potential Mez - Schenn and Grossmann - Gustafsson pairings.

 

[flyersfan187]

I think you are underestimating L. Schenn here. His numbers, particularly his advanced stats, would have you believe that he's actually been a bit better offensively than defensively over the last couple of years. He is certainly every bit as offensively gifted as Coburn imho.

Overall though, a guy like Edler next offseason makes a ton of sense. A pairing of Edler and Coburn would be incredibly balanced.... as would potential Mez - Schenn and Grossmann - Gustafsson pairings.

The other two pairings look good but that pairing screams a disaster. Both Mez and Schenn like to take themselves out of plays with big hits. And Mez likes to pinch on the offensive end even if he doesn't get the puck a lot of times and the odd man rush starts.

 

[CootaRoo]

I've brought this up a few times without much response but I'm just curious as to why as we consider various young stud RFA defensemen, Michael Del Zotto's name hasn't come up. It seems, in my opinion to make perfect sense to the flyers, as contract talks seem to have stalled and he could fill an important void for us going forward. A young defensive pairing of Schenn-Del Z may not be anything legendary, but will be sufficient in years to come, and I think we should think about an offer sheet for the following reasons:

1) The Rangers have a lot of money tied up in Richards and Nash, nearly 20% of their payroll in a 63 million dollar cap next year will go to two players. Money may not be tight yet for them but it certainly is getting close.
2) In the 2014 and 2015 off seasons, New York will see a plethora of star players looking for new contracts.

2014: Stepan, Hagelin, and McDonagh are all slated to become RFA's and will be commanding more money than their current contracts.

2015: Krieder will be an RFA, while Gaborik, Callahan, Boyle, Girardi, and most importantly Lundqvist are all slated to become UFA's. While I could surely see Gaborik walking or taking a massive pay-cut, those other names will all be receiving contracts that are at least as much if not more (Krieder, Girardi, Callahan) than they currently make.

Essentially what it comes down to is do the Rangers value Del Zotto enough to risk losing McDonagh or Krieder? I'm not entirely sure.

2) The convention around the league is that offer sheets create bad blood between GM's and teams, and that they are frowned upon. But as the flyers, why should we owe it to help out the Rangers when our prime need is sitting in their office with stalled negotiations? If it were another team I may hesitate, but arguably our largest rival? I don't see why not.

3) Given their financial issues, an offer sheet may not have to be even that substantial for them to relinquish him to us. Something like 4 years at 4.5 a year could actually get the job done, and if it doesn't and they sign him, thats a large chunk of cash that they cannot spend on their other free agents.

So while the odds of this happening are slim, for me, an offer sheet to New York is at least worth thinking about instead of Kulikov or Subban.

I agree on Del Zotto. I really don't see anyway the Rangers can match an offer sheet for him. Even if they manage for this upcoming season, the ripple effects for the foreseeable future will be hard felt. On the flip side, I think Montreal matches anything for Subban and Florida would have to be really bullied dollar-wise (to the point that it may not make sense anymore for the Flyers) to not match for Kulikov.

 

[dingbathero]

Which is what is surprising to me. You would think Homer would want to build a team around Lavy's system right? His system requires a lot of mobility in the d-men and youth (because they take a pounding). I honestly think this team is going to miss Carle. The guy played solid minutes for us and was rarely ever out of position.

 

[Broad Street Elite]

The other two pairings look good but that pairing screams a disaster. Both Mez and Schenn like to take themselves out of plays with big hits. And Mez likes to pinch on the offensive end even if he doesn't get the puck a lot of times and the odd man rush starts.

I think you'll see the natural evolution of Mez and Schenn over the next couple of seasons. Mez will always be the risk taker... Schenn I think will become more sound and stable, particularly defensively. Watching Schenn, he needs to learn to play with his current speed. He's never been a particularly fast or excellent skater and needs to understand the use of angles, leverage and positioning better. He gets caught out of position because he needs to mature, not because he's a risk taker so much imo.

 

[CootaRoo]

Carle had good positioning (in fact, I'd argue it was 2nd on the team to Timonen last season)... his knocks were inopportune turnovers, slow foot speed (so if he had bad positioning he would have been a true disaster) and lack of physicality. Only the truly irrational thought he wasn't an average defender (and above average offensive contributor).

 

[Gert B Frobe]

Those are top players and those type of caliber of players aren't available often. I personally don't see him doing much more this season.

This is based on your careful analysis of what Holmgren has done in the past?

 

[Gert B Frobe]

Which is what is surprising to me. You would think Homer would want to build a team around Lavy's system right? His system requires a lot of mobility in the d-men and youth (because they take a pounding). I honestly think this team is going to miss Carle. The guy played solid minutes for us and was rarely ever out of position.

oh good Lord you're on a roll

 

[flyersfan187]

oh good Lord you're on a roll

You think Carle played out of position a lot? Like the above poster said. Outside of Kimmo he was our best positional d-man on the team.

 

[CS]

Carle had good positioning (in fact, I'd argue it was 2nd on the team to Timonen last season)... his knocks were inopportune turnovers, slow foot speed (so if he had bad positioning he would have been a true disaster) and lack of physicality. Only the truly irrational thought he wasn't an average defender (and above average offensive contributor).

Carle's positioning was behind Coburn and Timonen.

Unfortunately Carle's slow foot speed is also a problematic issue with him "fitting in Lavi's system." Turnovers are also counter to what Lavi preaches (as most coaches obviously will, but Lavi's system is based on puck sharking/puck control/puck mobility.)

As far as our defense going forward...I'd say we'll be okay on the PP. We have capable forwards (as much as I dislike the forward on the point practice) playing behind on our PP.

We could use one more mobile defensemen to replace Timonen at the end of this season however don't miss that Coburn and Meszaros are very capable puck-moving defensemen. People forget Coburn in particular who is very mobile despite a lack of offensive production.

And I know they're not quite Chara, but let Meszaros get next to either LSchenn or Grossmann. I bet he'll be able to show off some of that mobility and offense he's been on and off with since leaving Ottawa.

 

[flyersfan187]

Carle's positioning was behind Coburn and Timonen.

Unfortunately Carle's slow foot speed is also a problematic issue with him "fitting in Lavi's system." Turnovers are also counter to what Lavi preaches (as most coaches obviously will, but Lavi's system is based on puck sharking/puck control/puck mobility.)

As far as our defense going forward...I'd say we'll be okay on the PP. We have capable forwards (as much as I dislike the forward on the point practice) playing behind on our PP.

We could use one more mobile defensemen to replace Timonen at the end of this season however don't miss that Coburn and Meszaros are very capable puck-moving defensemen. People forget Coburn in particular who is very mobile despite a lack of offensive production.

And I know they're not quite Chara, but let Meszaros get next to either LSchenn or Grossmann. I bet he'll be able to show off some of that mobility and offense he's been on and off with since leaving Ottawa.

Exactly with Carle. His turnovers and speed were the problem, not his positioning. I do hope Mez can find his game again, I just don't know who they are going to pair him with. I would like to keep Coburn/Grossmann together because they were a great pairing and then put Schenn with Kimmo.

 

[Jtown]

I really think these next 2 years could benefit some of the more competitive teams. I think in the next 2 years you are going to see some top players get bought out and after that sign with some of the more competitive teams in the league. We may be the benefactor of that.

 

[Ironmanrulez]

What about another solution for a solid dman:

Per Canes beat wrtier Chip Alexander's twitter

https://twitter.com/ice_chip



The most tradeable players on the roster, IMO, are Joni Pitkanen or Jamie McBain, as both play a similar sort of game and they have Ryan Murphy likely close to making the team. I could see one of Pitkanen or McBain moved out for draft picks, honestly.

I prefer McBain.

He has solid def skills, is a good offensive dman and is 6´2.

I don´t know, what Carolina would want for him, but i think it can´t be that much.

Meszaros will be UFA in the near future and he is always injured. Timonen is getting older. The only two dman that bring offense to the team, can be out after this or the next season.

What do you think about that idea?

 

[King Forsberg]

The Flyers making an offer to Del Zotto would be pretty awesome. He fits a long term need and the chance at screwing over the Rangers after they made a huge trade to win now would be Holmgrenesque

 

[LEIFey]

The Flyers making an offer to Del Zotto would be pretty awesome. He fits a long term need and the chance at screwing over the Rangers after they made a huge trade to win now would be Holmgrenesque

Who would we deal that they would want and we could afford to let go?