Poor-Potential NHL Markets, plain and simple, or victims of the recession, etc.?

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
24,420
438
Mexico
Boo. Hoo.

Seriously, I couldn't give a damn about the cratering economy in Phoenix, Atlanta, or the umpteen other municipalities in the US that are now going back to dirt roads. I didn't hear any of this sympathy in the mid-90s coming out of Americans like yourself, or ******** like the Count, when the NHL ripped beloved community institutions out of Winnipeg and Quebec City because of issues with the economy and the dollar up here. All I heard back then was that the NHL had outgrown Canada and needed to move south for the greater good of the game, blah, blah, blah.

That was a "whole missed my point" rant. I was simply trying to make the point that it all doesn't have to do with hockey, that quite perhaps interest in hockey has grown in most of these markets, but that with the economic turn down we're just not seeing it. I'm not sure it's as simple as saying that there's little interest in hockey, in a place like Atlanta for instance, but that perhaps many sports fans feel, at least, that they have fewer 'sports dollars' to go around. And a city like Atlanta has a lot of sports competition.

There's no "excuse" in that, the end result is still the same, but perhaps the impression of why it's so isn't exactly correct.

Fair enough, thanks for mostly answering my question. You also need to understand that the reason why many Canadians are talking about relocation of sunbelt teams is that when Winnipeg/QC were moved, we were told it was for the "betterment" of the league to "grow the game" substantially, essentially being told we were useless markets. That was and still is a slap in the face to many, including myself. And I still resent that, and will NEVER forget that. So yes, I am taking great satisfaction watching the sunbelt experiment collapse, and the potential move of Phoenix back to Winnipeg. I would love to see that happen; oh the irony of it all!

There was a part of that which I wanted to make an additional response to...

You asked earlier if I were more bothered by the threat of Atlanta and Phoenix losing their NHL teams than I was about Winnipeg and Quebec City losing theirs. Well, if I answered that completely honestly, I'd have to say that my degree of bother was mixed. Certainly I didn't want for the Jets or Nordiques to be relocated, but I'm not really that 'nationalistic' on the issue. I mean, it's my general perspective that if relocations have to happen because it's the best practical solution, then so be it, unfortunately. And I think that Winnipeg and Quebec City had their issues back then, just as Phoenix and Atlanta have their issues now, though obviously very different issues.

Personal preferences...
- If Phoenix ultimately has to lose the Coyotes, sooner or later, I'd prefer that the team went back to Winnipeg (sort of an NFL Raiders scenario).
- As for Atlanta, there is no even remotely appealing relocation option. If Atlanta loses another NHL team, we might as well wipe Atlanta from the map with respect to the NHL because there won't be a 3rd try for a hell of a long time. Atlanta is a major city to lose near premanently.
- As for Winnipeg and Quebec City, I have no real preference other than I hope both do get an NHL team again.

As to the second half of this response, I don't see any reason why I should have to choose sides. I wasn't happy that Winnipeg, Quebec City, and Hartford lost their NHL teams, and I was happy that cities like Raleigh, Atlanta, Denver, San Jose, Nashville, Dallas, and Phoenix got NHL teams, regardless of how it came about.
I better clarify that last comment... Not pleased that in the case of Denver, Dallas, Hartford, and Phoenix that it was at the expense of other cities losing their teams, but pleased that those cities did get teams.
And I'll be pleased when Winnipeg and Quebec City get teams again.
 
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tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
84,977
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No doubt. But I'm more interested in the other direction - do you believe attendance would have gone *up* if the team *missed* the playoffs more often. Because that is a clear implication of your original claim.

I can't put words in his mouth, but here is my take:

Sports in general, but especially baseball because there are so many games, depend on storylines and drama for their sales value. It's essentially a big reality show, right? And in baseball, that drama builds from day to day until you get to the October climax. To follow a baseball team you really have to invest yourself in keeping an eye on them the way you would a fruit tree, waiting for the harvest.

Well, in the Braves' case they weren't really generating storylines the way one would expect for such a successful team. Yes they were winning division titles but it was often by 10+ games... so there wasn't a "race" to get excited about. All through the regular season they were just biding their time waiting for the playoffs to start, so a casual fan had no particular reason to check the box scores every day. Then, once they got to the playoffs, it was one-round-and-done pretty much every year. So nothing really to build on for the next year, just a whimper and see you next spring. False hope doesn't really engender lots of loyalty.

I think it was very different prior to '99 when they were legitimately a powerhouse team with a strong identity, which seemed to have a great shot at every World Series. After that though, they built an identity similar to the Sharks of today. You don't even bother fearing them anymore because the schtick has gotten old.

Anyway, that's just how I saw them develop over the years. Also, Atlanta is kind of a crappy sports town.
 

Telfo

THRASHERS(and Golden Knights too)
Oct 31, 2008
4,889
4
Atlanta, GA
i always wonder what NBA fans say when they are trashing a market... ITS NOT A BASKETBALL TOWN doesnt seem as effective as the hockey version of that statement. hockey is not a regional sport anymore folks.

then again, hockey fans/media seem to be the only ones that truly obsess over attendance and where teams are located.
 

MoreOrr

B4
Jun 20, 2006
24,420
438
Mexico
i always wonder what NBA fans say when they are trashing a market... ITS NOT A BASKETBALL TOWN doesnt seem as effective as the hockey version of that statement. hockey is not a regional sport anymore folks.

then again, hockey fans/media seem to be the only ones that truly obsess over attendance and where teams are located.

Exactly! I brought up the same idea in an earlier post. And it's not as if the NBA hasn't had its share of relocations.
 

New User Name

Registered User
Jan 2, 2008
12,863
1,696
i always wonder what NBA fans say when they are trashing a market... ITS NOT A BASKETBALL TOWN doesnt seem as effective as the hockey version of that statement. hockey is not a regional sport anymore folks.

then again, hockey fans/media seem to be the only ones that truly obsess over attendance and where teams are located.

There's a huge debate/argument on who really owns the NY Jets.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/01/18/border-war-which-state-truly-owns-the-jets/

Some hockey fans are no different than football fans it seems.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
23,546
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i always wonder what NBA fans say when they are trashing a market... ITS NOT A BASKETBALL TOWN doesnt seem as effective as the hockey version of that statement. hockey is not a regional sport anymore folks.

then again, hockey fans/media seem to be the only ones that truly obsess over attendance and where teams are located.
NBA fans are just as bad. I know because I am one. I hear them trash Minnesota Toronto Milwaukee Memphis et al all the time.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
23,546
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Why is criticism always equated with hate? Isn't it possible to have objective commentary on the subject on a discussion board? Your position seems to be that either someone is 'with you or against you'.


I personally believe Atlanta is a very important location for the NHL to be, strategically speaking. Given a choice of fighting over one or the other, I'd pick Atlanta over Phoenix. That doesn't mean that I hate Phoenix, just that I believe Atlanta is the more important market on the US national scene.

What is unfortunate is that the owners of the team seem to enjoy litigation more than running sports franchises. The minute they get out of a long standing feud amongst their circle, they launch a suit against their own law firm! Maybe it's been discussed here, but a suit would have prove to a court that there's been material damage. These guys couldn't agree on the value of the franchise for years. They assumed that the lockout-produced cap would increase the franchise value and that they could cash out--- potentially for far more than they paid + operating costs.

Who's fault is it that they [apparently] had no clue?

They took on the risk of owning two franchises, which normally might be a good investment risk given that they both used the same arena. It "should" work, and that was entire premise to their investment.

At the very least, they even knew that seven years was one limit to considering options outside of Atlanta (assuming the NHL approved), so that should have been part of their plan all along. If the guys running the arena were having trouble, what hope would someone who just had the hockey team as a revenue option to do better?
Fugu he means Atlanta and Atlanta sports in general.
 

Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
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And 3 former Raptor players also trashed Toronto. I've never heard an NHL player trash a city they used to play for.
I would say Pronger and Nylander but your point is taken. But that is really unique to the NBA as the Jays players have never said anything bad. Plus I know players that have trashed the other markets I mentioned. They are the only league that does that.
 

Fugu

Guest
Fugu he means Atlanta and Atlanta sports in general.


There's a hate for Atlanta?

And, in general......

Can we try to get back to the nitty gritty of these owners and their penchant for lawsuits? Seems like enough is there to mock all of them and then some.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
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And 3 former Raptor players also trashed Toronto. I've never heard an NHL player trash a city they used to play for.

How about WHILE they were playing for the team?. Plenty. Most famous being Brian "Spinner" Spencer's total meltdown while being interviewed on TV when playing for the Penguins. Ripped off his jersey & in-skates proceeded to stomp on it. Circa late 60's or 70'ish. :laugh:
 

Aaronxxx

Registered User
Oct 12, 2009
1,252
0
atlanta
Again, I'm not saying right/wrong, I'm just really interested in hearing your reasoning, because I have never before heard the argument that attendance and on-field-performance could be inversely-related. It's an interesting idea...

definitely. i don't feel like that is a far-fetched idea. if the braves had perhaps made the playoffs every other year over that 10 year period, or at least had tight comptition against other teams regularly, there would a reason to watch the team on the off years. as tarheel said, baseball is very reliant on drama and storylines to keep fan interest since it isn't the fastest and most exciting game in the world. (keep in mind the rules of baseball. blowouts in hockey are exciting, hockey games have a time limit. in baseball, a blowout means the game can last all afternoon. baseball lives off of being tight competition.) the braves' situation was very unique. the on-field performance wasn't "have a dramatic run to get to the championship, take the series to 7 games and lose". in 2002-2004, they won their division by at least 10 games and lost in the first round of the playoffs. their on-field performance became "have a dominant regular season where the fans expect you to make the playoffs (so no reason for fans to go out of their way to catch games) and then lose in the first or second round every year with no big management shakeup". it developed a culture of being good but not great, and that doesn't lead to excitement in baseball. i think we can all admit that most of the fun of watching sports comes from not knowing what to expect every game and every season. the braves became predictable, there was no season drama, and fan interest petered out.

i'm sure most will disagree with me and think that it's a bad reason to stop going to games, but it was such a unique situation that i really feel like you had to be a lifelong fan of the team at the time to really get it.
 
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Melrose Munch

Registered User
Mar 18, 2007
23,546
2,006
There's a hate for Atlanta?

And, in general......

Can we try to get back to the nitty gritty of these owners and their penchant for lawsuits? Seems like enough is there to mock all of them and then some.
They represent the dehabilitating sprawl culture of the 21st century, but thats for a another thread
 

wickedwitch

Registered User
Mar 21, 2010
1,215
39
that stretch had 5 world series appearances and only one win. try having a team like that and you see how quick you get bored of "all of the winning they do"

Never. I would never ever get tired of it.

Try watching a team that hasn't even been .500 in well over a decade and see how much you take those "boring" playoff appearances for granted.

I could not possibly have less sympathy for your situation.

And frankly, if all fans in Atlanta were like you, I'd be hoping that the Thrashers and all the other Atlanta sports teams get moved ASAP.
 

Tinalera

Registered User
Feb 3, 2007
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How about WHILE they were playing for the team?. Plenty. Most famous being Brian "Spinner" Spencer's total meltdown while being interviewed on TV when playing for the Penguins. Ripped off his jersey & in-skates proceeded to stomp on it. Circa late 60's or 70'ish. :laugh:

Is there a YOUTUBE of this somewhere-was it a televised game? That just sounds CLASSIC! :laugh:
 

Tinalera

Registered User
Feb 3, 2007
6,522
50
The Known Universe
How about WHILE they were playing for the team?. Plenty. Most famous being Brian "Spinner" Spencer's total meltdown while being interviewed on TV when playing for the Penguins. Ripped off his jersey & in-skates proceeded to stomp on it. Circa late 60's or 70'ish. :laugh:

Oh, yes, player trashing team they used to play for?


Vesa Toskala "I need(look forward to?) to wash the Blue and White out of my equipment" after being traded from Toronto to Anahiem.

MLB I believe Roger Clemens called Toronto fans a bunch of "Touque wearing Hicks" I believe was the term.
 

Duke749

Savannah Ghost Pirates
Apr 6, 2010
47,750
22,632
Canton, Georgia
Never. I would never ever get tired of it.

Try watching a team that hasn't even been .500 in well over a decade and see how much you take those "boring" playoff appearances for granted.

I could not possibly have less sympathy for your situation.

And frankly, if all fans in Atlanta were like you, I'd be hoping that the Thrashers and all the other Atlanta sports teams get moved ASAP.

Posters have explained several different times, why the attendance dropped after 02.

Yes, let's move all the teams out of one of the biggest cities in the south. What a splended idea.
 

wickedwitch

Registered User
Mar 21, 2010
1,215
39
Posters have explained several different times, why the attendance dropped after 02.

Yes, let's move all the teams out of one of the biggest cities in the south. What a splended idea.
Posters can "explain" it all they want, but it's still a horrible explanation.

And I said "if" all fans were like said poster, which they clearly aren't. So no, I'm not advocating moving all Atlanta teams.
 

Dado

Guest
...but it was such a unique situation that i really feel like you had to be a lifelong fan of the team at the time to really get it.

The Montreal Canadiens went through a stretch of IIRC 15 straight playoff appearances, punctuated by one cup win partway through. ManU has qualified for Champions League in similar stretches, with only the occasional trophy.

But yeah - it is pretty rare - and both those happened in cities where they were THE team.

It is an interesting premise - short of being an outright dynasty, is it better to have "off" seasons interspersed with mostly winning, rather than simply winning all the time? Watching sports is ultimately about the emotional charge, and having a team's fortunes do some rollercoastering would plausibly spike the emotional gatorade.

But man...you are gonna have a hard time getting sympathy from folks who's teams have never won anything! :laugh:
 

Tommy Hawk

Registered User
May 27, 2006
4,223
104
But in the NFL and MLB they do. You can't even say that about Miami or Atlanta.

No, Chicago does not. Not for any sport. Even the vaunted Cubs had trouble selling tickets this past year and a freakin' high school team could play in wrigley and draw the same crowds. And no, the Cubs are not the high school team.

The bears had trouble selling out during the wanny years. the sox, always. the bulls, post jordan the place was like a tomb. same with the Hawks who were outdrawn by the AHL team in town on several occasions where both teams were playing at the same time.

I can see the Atlanta situation where people get tired of going to a boring baseball game even though their team wins. Regardless of the sport, people want excitement.
 

Duke749

Savannah Ghost Pirates
Apr 6, 2010
47,750
22,632
Canton, Georgia
The Montreal Canadiens went through a stretch of IIRC 15 straight playoff appearances, punctuated by one cup win partway through. ManU has qualified for Champions League in similar stretches, with only the occasional trophy.

But yeah - it is pretty rare - and both those happened in cities where they were THE team.

It is an interesting premise - short of being an outright dynasty, is it better to have "off" seasons interspersed with mostly winning, rather than simply winning all the time? Watching sports is ultimately about the emotional charge, and having a team's fortunes do some rollercoastering would plausibly spike the emotional gatorade.

But man...you are gonna have a hard time getting sympathy from folks who's teams have never won anything! :laugh:

See that's the thing. Atlanta has had almost no success between the 4 sports. The Falcons have lost 10 or more games more then twice as many times as they have made the playoffs. Before 91 the Braves were awful. And the Hawks have never made it past the conference finals. And we all know the kind of success the Thrashers have had. We have one championship between the 4 sports. Only the Braves really have a good history and the Hawks have a somewhat respectable history, but outside of that, this city hasn't hardly won a thing.
 
Nov 13, 2006
11,516
1,394
Ohio
The Montreal Canadiens went through a stretch of IIRC 15 straight playoff appearances, punctuated by one cup win partway through. ManU has qualified for Champions League in similar stretches, with only the occasional trophy.

But yeah - it is pretty rare - and both those happened in cities where they were THE team.

It is an interesting premise - short of being an outright dynasty, is it better to have "off" seasons interspersed with mostly winning, rather than simply winning all the time? Watching sports is ultimately about the emotional charge, and having a team's fortunes do some rollercoastering would plausibly spike the emotional gatorade.

But man...you are gonna have a hard time getting sympathy from folks who's teams have never won anything! :laugh:

Actually, you are getting into a well researched area, intermittent reinforcement. It's the basis for gambling and also for the video game industry. Many studies have shown that if people are rewarded regularly, they become bored and interest declines. When the reward is intermittent, interest increases, and this increase can be quite large.

Here are some papers on this:

http://www.csun.edu/~vcfin003/psych.pdf

http://mentalhealthce.com/courses/contentGS/secGS08.html

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u77236t7l328072l/

I'm sure we've all seen fans of teams who win very regularly, they become almost impossible to please. In Ohio, we call them Buckeye fans! :laugh:
 

Finlandia WOAT

js7.4x8fnmcf5070124
May 23, 2010
24,134
23,681
Didn't attendance woes due to winning too much also affect the Oilers during their dynasty?

I also like how we have shifted to a discussion on Baseball attendance.

Can Baseball work in the south?!?!?:sarcasm:
 

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