Poor-Potential NHL Markets, plain and simple, or victims of the recession, etc.?

[Puckschmuck*]

Is this going down the 'Who loves who more?" road?

The point is that 15 years ago is 15 years ago. Hairstyles are different... fashion... music. Thomas Steen is in politics now. It is more prudent to be sympathetic to a reality of today, rather than lament something lost a generation ago.

Really? So we just forget about the past and only concern ourselves with the present? Sounds a bit harsh to me, to just forget how Winnipeg and QC were treated in comparison to how Atlanta and Phoenix are treated by the NHL. I guess some cities deserve to be "saved" more than other.

Oh well, no matter. Sounds like things will be getting very exciting with reguards to the return of the NHL to the city over the next few days/weeks, with a key day being this "Choose-Day". So this conversation will mean very little to me very soon!

 

[Acesolid]

Is this going down the 'Who loves who more?" road?

The point is that 15 years ago is 15 years ago. Hairstyles are different... fashion... music. Thomas Steen is in politics now. It is more prudent to be sympathetic to a reality of today, rather than lament something lost a generation ago.

Thinking in the present is exactly what we're doing in Quebec city and Winnipeg, we want an NHL team now, not in an hypothetical expansion in 20 years. So in order to get a team now we want one of the teams that might move to do so. That's why we're rooting against them.

It's nothing personal, it's just business. Like a movie once said: I drink your milkshake!

 

[Magnus Fulgur]

Atlanta fans have been in the past very cynical about the Braves in the post-season because Bobby Cox (manager for 25 years!!!) had repeatedly proven himself to be a horrible strategical manager in playoff situations. I've heard many many people say that they thought winning the division with great pitching and some power hitters year after year was a hollow victory because Bobby Cox would ruin it in the end. Often, he did...except for 1995. Imagine if for the past 25 years the Detroit Red Wings were coached by a bumbling old folksy man. I think I might be hard to sell out The Joe despite whatever great roster and divisional championships they would have.

BTW, the Thrashers Fan Club posted their "response" and they had nothing of substance to say and admitted that their email was done hastily.

 

[Dado]

Imagine if for the past 25 years the Detroit Red Wings were coached by a bumbling old folksy man. I think I might be hard to sell out The Joe despite whatever great roster and divisional championships they would have.

Are you suggesting that attendance would have been better with a more charismatic manager who won a lot less...?

 

[Dado]

i still stand by it that the reason braves attendance dropped off is due to their constant teasing of getting to the playoffs and not capitalizing.

I get that.

I'm asking if you believe attendance would have been better if, instead of making the playoffs and not winning championships, the team more often simply won less and missed the playoffs completely. That's a pretty straightforward extension of what you claimed earlier, AND what you are reiterating above.

I'm not taking shots at you - just trying to understand your apparent position (less success -> better attendance) as it is, you must admit, a little unusual.

 

[Melrose Munch]

BTW Atlanta is a terrible sports market period not just hockey. Check out the Braves empty seats during PLAYOFF games, the Pre Vick post Bartowski falcons etc.

 

[Melrose Munch]

This seems like a good place to bring what should be an obvious reality into the discussion right here... Cities like Atlanta get criticized for not being a sports town, and perhaps rightfully so, in comparison to cities, let's say like Philadelphia for instance. But then, can people really be criticized for having other, probably more serious priorities? And, I really wonder what some of those Canadian cities would be like if they were large enough to have 4 major league sports teams in town. Toronto manages with 4, if we include the CFL, but apparently Vancouver and Montreal won't support more. Would the same be true for Winnipeg and Quebec City if those cities had about 3 million or so people?
Canadian sports fans might say, hell why should any of us want the NBA or MLB here, but at least these non-traditional NHL cities have the NHL and are still struggling to keep their teams. Perhaps many of them will end up like the Expos did in Montreal, who knows. So, should the Montreal Expos be a good comparison here? How did Expos fans feel about losing the Expos?

We are having a debate about Toronto in the NFL right now.

 

[Duke749]

BTW Atlanta is a terrible sports market period not just hockey. Check out the Braves empty seats during PLAYOFF games, the Pre Vick post Bartowski falcons etc.

How bout the 5 years of 40,000+ in the 90s for the Braves?

Really? Falcons attendence bad? Gee that must be a shock with their 9 playoff appearences and one super bowl appearence in their 44 year history. Yes, don't even mention the great attendence when that team has actually won.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

How bout the 5 years of 40,000+ in the 90s for the Braves?

Really? Falcons attendence bad? Gee that must be a shock with their 9 playoff appearences and one super bowl appearence in their 44 year history. Yes, don't even mention the great attendence when that team has actually won.

No one ever does.

 

[Duke749]

Atlanta fans have been in the past very cynical about the Braves in the post-season because Bobby Cox (manager for 25 years!!!) had repeatedly proven himself to be a horrible strategical manager in playoff situations. I've heard many many people say that they thought winning the division with great pitching and some power hitters year after year was a hollow victory because Bobby Cox would ruin it in the end. Often, he did...except for 1995. Imagine if for the past 25 years the Detroit Red Wings were coached by a bumbling old folksy man. I think I might be hard to sell out The Joe despite whatever great roster and divisional championships they would have.

BTW, the Thrashers Fan Club posted their "response" and they had nothing of substance to say and admitted that their email was done hastily.

You make the oddest post.

 

[btn]

It always amuses me to see how many people hate Atlanta. Football attendance, baseball attendance? What on earth does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? And why on earth do people who don't even live in the city get so worked up over it?

 

[Aaronxxx]

I get that.

I'm asking if you believe attendance would have been better if, instead of making the playoffs and not winning championships, the team more often simply won less and missed the playoffs completely. That's a pretty straightforward extension of what you claimed earlier, AND what you are reiterating above.

I'm not taking shots at you - just trying to understand your apparent position (less success -> better attendance) as it is, you must admit, a little unusual.

i would say it's possible. we had above average attendance until the turn of the century. this is when star players left, the team had only made the world series once since winning it in 95 (96 and 99, both against the yankees who swept us in 99). so fan fatigue has set in and the team is expected to make the playoffs, and i think that leads to people becoming disinterested in the regular season and thus low attendance levels. we've still hovered around league average since missing the playoffs four years in a row and an embarrassing showing this past season. the team is still big, but no where near the level it had in the 90s, when winning was still new and fun, where some seasons they drew a million more people than the league average. if there was at least one other world series win in the 10 years they went to the playoffs following 1995, i'm confident attendance would be stronger (not that it is in bad shape without it).

 

[Melrose Munch]

It always amuses me to see how many people hate Atlanta. Football attendance, baseball attendance? What on earth does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? And why on earth do people who don't even live in the city get so worked up over it?

Because there are cities out there that would die for a pro sports team and the Attendance in Atlanta and Miami are just awful.

I'm not mad at the Thrashers situation like some Canadians are. If you loook at the other sports its the same thing except those teams make a profit. How can you single hockey out when its the same thing for the others.

In new New York and Chicago and Philadelphia and Boston and Detroit they show up win or lose.

This is why I want the Thrashers to stay. To be the first ATL team to have consistent long term support. That would be huge for the NHL.

 

[btn]

Chicago and Boston do not fall in that category when it comes to hockey. Neither do the Devils and Islanders, both in the NYC metro area.

 

[Magnus Fulgur]

You make the oddest post.

What's so odd?

Red Wings and Braves won their division for a long period of time.

The Braves only won one championship because Bobby Cox was their manager, and he's a terrible playoff manager. He was good at keeping everyone happy an productive over a season, but he stinks at making the right calls at critical times (calling in relievers, shifting the outfield, knowing when to steal and bunt, etc.)

So imagine if for the past 25 years, Detroit had a coach like Bobby Cox was for The Braves. Mind you, he'd be the only coach for that whole period: year after year after year. It gets stale. He'd put out lines with no chemistry, wouldn't roll lines properly, wouldn't call time outs at the right time, wouldn't set up the right game plan for each opponent...then the Red Wings would have had only one cup over the past 25 years, and many bitter disappointing first round exits.

That would make Red Wings fans more apathetic towards their franchise despite having a good roster.

 

[MaskedSonja]

Atlanta fans have been in the past very cynical about the Braves in the post-season because Bobby Cox (manager for 25 years!!!) had repeatedly proven himself to be a horrible strategical manager in playoff situations. I've heard many many people say that they thought winning the division with great pitching and some power hitters year after year was a hollow victory because Bobby Cox would ruin it in the end. Often, he did...except for 1995. Imagine if for the past 25 years the Detroit Red Wings were coached by a bumbling old folksy man. I think I might be hard to sell out The Joe despite whatever great roster and divisional championships they would have.

BTW, the Thrashers Fan Club posted their "response" and they had nothing of substance to say and admitted that their email was done hastily.

Re: The fanclub: So, I'm assuming then this a quasi-admission to the fans that there is no misinformation, that the situation "is what it is"? They, like the rest of us, are probably trying to figure out what it all means.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Chicago and Boston do not fall in that category when it comes to hockey. Neither do the Devils and Islanders, both in the NYC metro area.

But in the NFL and MLB they do. You can't even say that about Miami or Atlanta.

 

[AtlantaWhaler]

But in the NFL and MLB they do. You can't even say that about Miami or Atlanta.

IMO, you can't say that about the rest of the country. In measuring overall popularity of professional sports:

Northeast (New York, Boston, Philly) >>> Rest of the country.

 

[AllByDesign]

Since both teams are part of the same organization, it is extremely simple from an accounting perspective to make one entity make money and the other lose money. It is as simple as changing the allocation of fixed assets or costs or corporate expenses such as executive payroll for example.

Granted, that the accounting can be made a matter of perspective. I understand numbers can be adjusted to back up any claim by the owner on financial performance. Notwithstanding that, is this your argument to state the Thrashers are profitable? Even if the numbers are weighted to show more liability on the Thrashers portion of the company, they are still losing money and are the most un-attractive portion of the business. I believe the Thrashers, given enough time could make quite a go of it, but I also can call a spade a spade.

Really? So we just forget about the past and only concern ourselves with the present? Sounds a bit harsh to me, to just forget how Winnipeg and QC were treated in comparison to how Atlanta and Phoenix are treated by the NHL. I guess some cities deserve to be "saved" more than other.

I won't enter this portion on this thread. I will leave it that I respectfully dissagree with the assertion.

As far has being harsh, it isn't meant that way. I just find the past situation un-interesting in comparisson to the current realities.

Thinking in the present is exactly what we're doing in Quebec city and Winnipeg, we want an NHL team now, not in an hypothetical expansion in 20 years. So in order to get a team now we want one of the teams that might move to do so. That's why we're rooting against them.
[/URL]

I prefer to root for hockey, regardless of the location. My gut tells me some decisions have already been made. Its mostly rooted in the fact that the NHL did not enjoy being perched as precariously as they were at the end of last season with the potential of having to make a last minute franchise move. They need to know where their milk crates are going to be as they negotiate new TV deals etc. Having to make a surprise relocation in mid-negotiation would be counterproductive to their goals.

 

[edog37]

I need clarification on the claim first. This is what I'm hearing, tell me if it's correct:

"Teams that win one championship in 14 years will be less supported if they make the playoffs all the time, than if they only make the playoffs sometime."

Does this also apply to teams that DON'T win any championships? I will assume so, because otherwise the claim devolves to "making the playoffs a lot and NEVER winning a championship will draw more fans than making the playoffs a lot and OCCASIONALLY winning a championship", which is quite ridiculous.

Once this is clarified, I can provide the appropriate examples.

yes, this must be some sort of weird logic coming straight out of the Twilight Zone.....

win too much=pissed off fans....

 

[tarheelhockey]

I don't mind admitting that I bailed on the Braves about 7 or 8 years ago because I got bored with the same-old. Grew up watching them on the Turner broadcasting empire, and became a big fan during my adolescent years with those incredible mid-90s teams. I could probably still fill out a lineup card for that team if I halfway tried.

But yeah, after about the first 10 years or so of having the same story every year, you just stop paying attention as a casual fan. The players I liked as a kid moved on, and were replaced by free agents and rookies I had never heard of. The division titles weren't interesting because they were always 10 games ahead by the All-Star Game, so what was the point of watching the regular season? And eventually I got callous to the playoff collapses and stopped watching those too. As someone who's not hardcore about baseball, there just wasn't anything to sink my teeth into, so I moved on.

I followed them more this year simply because they weren't that great but had an outside shot at the playoffs.

 

[Fugu]

It always amuses me to see how many people hate Atlanta. Football attendance, baseball attendance? What on earth does any of this have to do with the topic at hand? And why on earth do people who don't even live in the city get so worked up over it?

Why is criticism always equated with hate? Isn't it possible to have objective commentary on the subject on a discussion board? Your position seems to be that either someone is 'with you or against you'.


I personally believe Atlanta is a very important location for the NHL to be, strategically speaking. Given a choice of fighting over one or the other, I'd pick Atlanta over Phoenix. That doesn't mean that I hate Phoenix, just that I believe Atlanta is the more important market on the US national scene.

What is unfortunate is that the owners of the team seem to enjoy litigation more than running sports franchises. The minute they get out of a long standing feud amongst their circle, they launch a suit against their own law firm! Maybe it's been discussed here, but a suit would have prove to a court that there's been material damage. These guys couldn't agree on the value of the franchise for years. They assumed that the lockout-produced cap would increase the franchise value and that they could cash out--- potentially for far more than they paid + operating costs.

Who's fault is it that they [apparently] had no clue?

They took on the risk of owning two franchises, which normally might be a good investment risk given that they both used the same arena. It "should" work, and that was entire premise to their investment.

At the very least, they even knew that seven years was one limit to considering options outside of Atlanta (assuming the NHL approved), so that should have been part of their plan all along. If the guys running the arena were having trouble, what hope would someone who just had the hockey team as a revenue option to do better?

 

[Dado]

if there was at least one other world series win in the 10 years they went to the playoffs following 1995, i'm confident attendance would be stronger (not that it is in bad shape without it).

No doubt. But I'm more interested in the other direction - do you believe attendance would have gone *up* if the team *missed* the playoffs more often. Because that is a clear implication of your original claim.

Again, I'm not saying right/wrong, I'm just really interested in hearing your reasoning, because I have never before heard the argument that attendance and on-field-performance could be inversely-related. It's an interesting idea...

 

[Killion]

....because I have never before heard the argument that attendance and on-field-performance could be inversely-related. It's an interesting idea...

practiced to perfection by the and MLSE. Just dont try it at home kids.

 

[AllByDesign]

practiced to perfection by the and MLSE. Just dont try it at home kids.

Please... Please don't try it at home!!!