Poor defensive play of Gaudreau-Monahan line holding Flames back

SKRusty

Napalm
Jan 20, 2016
2,611
1,062
This isn't a thread about Sam Bennett though, .

YOU were the one that inserted Bennett in here to the protests of many and when you are shown to be wrong you try to change the narrative.

You keep insisting Monahan is bad at center yet Hartley, Gully, and now Peters disagree with you. You were told by Treliving, Conroy, and Peters through several news stories that Mony was not responsible for the poor defensive stats but of course you know better. I have told you time and again 90% of the problem with Johnny's and Mony's defensive numbers are the giveaways Johnny gives up at the oppositions blue line. When you turn over the puck while driving into the zone it means you are then scrambling to get back into the defensive zone and then have to get possession of the puck because the opposition just had an easy entry.

If you watch tonight's game against the Leaf's Johnny was chipping and chasing more likely because Peters has him working on that part of the game. Ironically Johnny, Lindy and Mony were getting turnovers of there own in the oppositions end. So kudos to Peters and Johnny for working on that. It also shows in these 4 players leading the team in regards to possession.

PlayerTOIGA+/-GSCF%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
ELIAS.LINDHOLM19.81112.562.50%
MARK.GIORDANO25.50111.460.00%
JOHNNY.GAUDREAU19.90111.254.84%
SEAN.MONAHAN20.21111.854.84%
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
So yes everything you have to say about either Bennett or Monahan is flat out WRONG!

The Maple Leafs gave the puck away 26 times, twice as frequently as their guests.

“If our group can wrap their head around the fact we’ve gotta check and check for our chances and be proud of the way we played in our D-zone, I think we have a chance to be real good,” Peters said.

“We’re learning how to manage the puck, taking some of the risk out of our game, and if we continue to do that, we can have a good team by the time it’s all said and done.”
Had to add a quote that supports what I said.
Calgary Flames maintain better structure in win over Toronto Maple Leafs
 
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WhiskeyYerTheDevils

yer leadin me astray
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I have told you time and again 90% of the problem with Johnny's and Mony's defensive numbers are the giveaways Johnny gives up at the oppositions blue line. [/URL]

5v5 Giveaways:
Monahan 9
Gaudreau 5

I think the issue is how weak Monahan is along the boards and around the net. Once the other team gets cycling they get hemmed in because Monahan's too slow to keep up.
 

SKRusty

Napalm
Jan 20, 2016
2,611
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5v5 Giveaways:
Monahan 9
Gaudreau 5

I think the issue is how weak Monahan is along the boards and around the net. Once the other team gets cycling they get hemmed in because Monahan's too slow to keep up.

Most of the unacceptable giveaways are occurring at the oppositions blue line and stemmed from Gaudreau carrying the puck too long in low percentage situations. If you watch the Leafs game you will notice Peters has Johnny chipping and chasing in low percentage situations. I gave both Johnny and Peters kudos for that in the game day thread. This line is also very good in that scenario as they were taking away more in the oppositions end.

Monahan is far from being a perfect player but he is way better defensively than OKG was giving him credit for.

As the CORSI for the game shows the adjustments Johnny and Peters have made took this line which previously was near the bottom each game in regards to CORSI to the top. I have been hammering this point for two seasons and it makes me happy to see that Peters finally is prioritizing this issue. This chip and chase is what indirectly led to the Lindholm goal. With Johnny, Mony and Lindholm in a good defensive posture for the Maple Leaf attempted breakout it allowed Johnny to pressure and Sean to intercept the pass.

Some were arguing that this approach would impair Johnny's creativity but that play highlighted how fast Johnny and Mony can turn the game around with a takeaway. The whole theory it was an incapability of the players was ludicrous. It was simply situational awareness and a slight change in play-making decisions and as we all know Gaudreau see the ice better than 99.9% of the players in the league.

When Johnny went for his big run against the defense earlier both Monahan and Lindholm were in strong defensive positions so Johnny went for it and almost accomplished the goal of the year.

Monahan is a cerebral player and will not play like Getzlaf or Kesler. His style more closely mirrors Henrik Sedin, Stamkos, Sakic and Yzerman. Don't expect him to crash and bang all game long as it is not his game. Few centers are as adept as Sean at finding the soft spot in the defense.
 

Volica

Papa Shango
May 15, 2012
21,391
11,074
Here is this years' lead

Leaders in Give Aways on forward:

Dylan Larkin (only good offensive player on a dud Detroit team).
Anze Kopitar - Selke level centre
John Tavares - 1C
David Pastrnak - Part of the best top line in hockey
Alex Radulov - 10 points in 6 games.
Justin Williams
Taylor Hall - Reigning MVP

Here's last years':

Names in the top 10 wingers:

Johnny Gaudreau
Nikita Kucherov
Brad Marchand
David Pastrnak
Alex Ovechkin
Taylor Hall

Names in the top 10 centres:

Barzal
Trochek
Draisaitl
Tavares
Larkin
Sidney Crosby
Malkin
Kopitar
McDavid
Kuznetsov

Guys who have the puck a lot, turn the puck over a lot.

Here's the recap:
Selke Winner: Top 10 Giveaway Leader Centre.
Hart Winner: Top 10 Giveaway Leader Winger
Conn Smythe Winner: Top 10 giveaway Leader winger
Conn Smyth Runner-up: Top 10 giveaway Leader

Giveaways are a terrible way to evaluate players. Good players have the puck a lot, they're bound to turn it over more. Gaudreau has the puck all night, no wonder he turns it over more than someone like Monahan, who treats the puck like a hot-potato.
 

Bounces R Way

Registered User
Nov 18, 2013
33,483
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Weegartown
If you have the puck more than anyone else on your team, it's pretty likely you're going to "give" it away the most. That's really just basic logic.

My main issue with Monahan as a 1C aside from his lack of foot speed is he just isn't physical enough at either end of the rink. He has a big frame, he's got to go in there and use it so his wingers or defenseman can better retrieve pucks. Pin a guy on the boards, finish your check on the forecheck, impose a bit of will on your opponent. Way too often he just waves at his guy as he floats by, waiting for a puck to pop loose or for his wingers or D to win a board battle for him. Drives me nuts.

You know why he gets praised so often for "finding the soft spot in the defence"? Same reason Lindholm is getting some great wide open looks. It's because Johnny Gaudreau is drawing 2 or 3 defenders towards him with his hands and speed and then miraculously getting the puck through them anyways to his now wide open linemates. Don't get me wrong, both Sean and Elias are "good" at getting open, but that's by far the easiest part of a scoring play. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Monahan led the league over the last couple years in primo scoring chances. He has to work on doing more to help create them IMO.
 

SKRusty

Napalm
Jan 20, 2016
2,611
1,062
Giveaways and takeaways are just as bad as using +/- to evaluate a player.

End of story.

Not true. While not definitive it should indicate who on the team to watch and the location of the giveaways. If you were to look at Ovie's giveaway heat map you would see giveaways closer to the oppositions net in a cluster around the face-off dot. Gaudreau on the other hand would have his heat map at the oppositions blue line which is a horrible spot to be turning over pucks.

If Johnny reduces his riskiest giveaways from his stat line probably about 10-15% he is brought in line with the rest of the stars in the NHL.

Peters mentioned he is removing the riskiest scenarios specifically meaning he is seeing the same things I am pointing out. Johnny chipped in more pucks than average last night and the first line was much more successful. Lindholm's goal last night was a product of the chip and chase and pressuring Toronto's defenders.

If you have the puck more than anyone else on your team, it's pretty likely you're going to "give" it away the most. That's really just basic logic.

My main issue with Monahan as a 1C aside from his lack of foot speed is he just isn't physical enough at either end of the rink. He has a big frame, he's got to go in there and use it so his wingers or defenseman can better retrieve pucks. Pin a guy on the boards, finish your check on the forecheck, impose a bit of will on your opponent. Way too often he just waves at his guy as he floats by, waiting for a puck to pop loose or for his wingers or D to win a board battle for him. Drives me nuts.

You know why he gets praised so often for "finding the soft spot in the defence"? Same reason Lindholm is getting some great wide open looks. It's because Johnny Gaudreau is drawing 2 or 3 defenders towards him with his hands and speed and then miraculously getting the puck through them anyways to his now wide open linemates. Don't get me wrong, both Sean and Elias are "good" at getting open, but that's by far the easiest part of a scoring play. Wouldn't surprise me at all if Monahan led the league over the last couple years in primo scoring chances. He has to work on doing more to help create them IMO.

Stamkos, Bergeron, MacKinnon, Malkin and some greats in Yzerman and Sakic are/were not that physical. These guys beat you with their brains. Sakic "Mr. Clutch" was far from being the fastest player on the ice and there were years playing with Tanguay and other great setup players where he would score 50 goals. Then in other years where he would have snipers he would get 30 and have 70 assists. It was dependent on who he was lined up with. Monahan to me is very similar to Sakic where he is a chameleon according to what what his line-mates possess. Both also have that clutch character about them.

To this point Calgary has had no other sniper other than him so you don't see his ability to set up other players. Johnny is one of the best set-up men in the league so why should it surprise you to see Monahan doing his job to get open and put it in the net.

In junior Monahan averaged 1.5 assists for every goal. In the NHL he has played on a team where he is the only sniper... Kind of makes it hard to play any other role.

I have never said Johnny sucks. What I have said is he needs to cut down on the high risk giveaways and to focus a bit more on his positioning. Tkachuk is a more complete LW at this point.
 

Johnny Hoxville

The Return of a Legend
Jul 15, 2006
37,549
9,343
Calgary
Most of the unacceptable giveaways are occurring at the oppositions blue line and stemmed from Gaudreau carrying the puck too long in low percentage situations. If you watch the Leafs game you will notice Peters has Johnny chipping and chasing in low percentage situations. I gave both Johnny and Peters kudos for that in the game day thread. This line is also very good in that scenario as they were taking away more in the oppositions end.

Monahan is far from being a perfect player but he is way better defensively than OKG was giving him credit for.

As the CORSI for the game shows the adjustments Johnny and Peters have made took this line which previously was near the bottom each game in regards to CORSI to the top. I have been hammering this point for two seasons and it makes me happy to see that Peters finally is prioritizing this issue. This chip and chase is what indirectly led to the Lindholm goal. With Johnny, Mony and Lindholm in a good defensive posture for the Maple Leaf attempted breakout it allowed Johnny to pressure and Sean to intercept the pass.

Some were arguing that this approach would impair Johnny's creativity but that play highlighted how fast Johnny and Mony can turn the game around with a takeaway. The whole theory it was an incapability of the players was ludicrous. It was simply situational awareness and a slight change in play-making decisions and as we all know Gaudreau see the ice better than 99.9% of the players in the league.

When Johnny went for his big run against the defense earlier both Monahan and Lindholm were in strong defensive positions so Johnny went for it and almost accomplished the goal of the year.

Monahan is a cerebral player and will not play like Getzlaf or Kesler. His style more closely mirrors Henrik Sedin, Stamkos, Sakic and Yzerman. Don't expect him to crash and bang all game long as it is not his game. Few centers are as adept as Sean at finding the soft spot in the defense.

I’ll also add I feel this change in philosophy is going to benefit Sam huge. You can already see the difference in success he’s having in overall play. The change is night and say.
 

OvermanKingGainer

#BennettFreed #CurseofTheSpulll #FreeOliver
Feb 3, 2015
16,133
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2022 Cup to Calgary
Stamkos, Bergeron, MacKinnon, Malkin and some greats in Yzerman and Sakic are/were not that physical. These guys beat you with their brains. Sa

Malkin, Bergeron, and MacKinnon win a ton of puck battles. It's not about laying guys out, it's about coming out of corners with the puck and then using your high-end skill to create. Every guy you named was a creator with the exception of Stamkos, and Stamkos is a guy who was playing RW the only time he made the SCF, and if he weren't a former 60 goal scorer would not really get the benefit of the doubt at center - even though he's better down the middle than Monahan.
 

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