Poor defensive play of Gaudreau-Monahan line holding Flames back

[viper0220]

"Luckily a high shooting percentage has been floating this crew so far, but it goes without saying that this can’t continue. Not only can the Flames not hope to contend long-term if their top line keeps getting caved in, it’s also a terrible waste of the Backlund line.

Having a forward combination that can play against almost anyone and win the territorial battle is a rare gift. The payoff should be relatively easier minutes for everyone else. In theory, this should lead to better scoring ratios for other lines, particularly trios loaded up with the team’s best offensive talents. To have them fail this spectacularly at it is casting pearls before swine."

Seven game segments: Scoring is up and Backlund is...

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[OvermanKingGainer]

The fix is easy AF: Put your four best centers at playing center at center.

Gaudreau-Bennett-Neal
Lindholm-Dube-Monahan
Tkachuk-Backlund-Czarnik/Frolik
Ryan-Jankowski-Czarnik/Hathaway

 

[Jags68]

No. Lindholm and Monahan got em covered.

 

[JPeeper]

The Flames top line has half of the Flames total goals, they aren't holding the Flames back because of their defensive play. In 8 games they have been hemmed in 3-4 times, one of those was when 3/5 Flames players had the wrong stick. Also, Gaudreau doesn't play defence so it is essentially always a PK when the top line is in the d-zone.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I think Monahan is a C and he will always be over his career. But it is funny that OKG has been beating that drum for as long as he has and the Flames brought in a switch blade like Lindholm to help Mony out. It’s obvious the analytics back up with OKG has been preaching.

Monahan is great and has been since coming into the league. But it’s clear to me that the Flames have made steps to help him in the areas he’s lacking in.

 

[Anglesmith]

High shooting percentage has nothing to do with luck. They are talented players creating situations where the puck has a high likelihood of going in. This is why PDO is such a horrendous stat.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

I think Monahan is a C and he will always be over his career.

David Backes was a center and is still a center.

But guys like Monahan and Backes are not guys you actually want at center, they're guys you tolerate at center when you have no centers. We on the other hand decide to play an amazing two way center as our 3LW because he struggled to score when he had to drag around Troy Brouwer for one season.

 

[FerklundCGY]

High shooting percentage has nothing to do with luck. They are talented players creating situations where the puck has a high likelihood of going in. This is why PDO is such a horrendous stat.

False. Yes, high end players have higher on-ice shooting percentages for the most part, but basically never to the point of where our top line is currently at.

They'll inevitably slow down in terms of production unless they start getting way more shots and scoring chances than they currently are.

 

[Anglesmith]

False. Yes, high end players have higher on-ice shooting percentages for the most part, but basically never to the point of where our top line is currently at.

They'll inevitably slow down in terms of production unless they start getting way more shots and scoring chances than they currently are.

It's a silly argument. They don't do the same things and then just happen to stop scoring. Unless you're talking about an extremely small sample size, high shooting percentages are not sustained because the style of play that leads to them is elite, and hard to do. It's hard to routinely beat your guys and develop easy scoring chances. Guys "feel it" for a stretch of time, and also fall away from it for stretches of time.

So no, it's false to say that they're getting lucky so far with their high shooting percentage. It's a credit to them that they've had a high shooting percentage so far. But I also expect more games like tonight where they just don't have it, and games which are in between.

 

[DFF]

David Backes was a center and is still a center.

But guys like Monahan and Backes are not guys you actually want at center, they're guys you tolerate at center when you have no centers. We on the other hand decide to play an amazing two way center as our 3LW because he struggled to score when he had to drag around Troy Brouwer for one season.

No matter how you want to spin it to fit your narrative. Bennett has not produced enough to deserve anything more than a 3W at his point.

 

[super6646]

How about this:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk
Bennett/Frolik-Backlund-Lindholm
Frolik/Bennett-Ryan-Neal
Dube-Jankowski-Czarnik

Would add a defensively responsible player on the top line who can score and add that physicality. The second line can still be a shutdown line as well in this case, and could help benefit the team overall.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

It is concerning to me. I mean yes they are scoring tons right now but there’s going to be periods where they cool down and that isn’t the case. And if this kind of defensive play continues then they would be a liability.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

How about this:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Tkachuk

...

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

 

[super6646]

Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

Why is that?

 

[DFF]

Nothing is satisfactory for him unless Bennett and Monahan switch roles

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Why is that?

Replacing the best two way player on the line to improve two way play is a futile exercise. Especially when Lindholm's Midas touch has played a big part in that line not being deeper underwater.

Yes, he's not the perfect winger for that line - we had the perfect winger for that line and packaged him in part for Lindholm. But he's not dragging it down either.

If you want to keep Monahan and Gaudreau together, move Monahan to RW and put a center who understands how to achieve shot suppression down the middle. Either Backlund or Bennett would be the best and obvious choices but even Jankowski and Dube would be an upgrade.

If you want to insist on Monahan at center out of sheer irrationality, then you need to split him up from Gaudreau who hasn't played well enough defensively since Hartley. Frolik-Monahan-Lindholm or (ew) Bennett-Monahan-Lindholm make the most sense.

Or you can keep doing what we've done for the last three years. Definition of insanity and all that, just like our power play.

 

[super6646]

Replacing the best two way player on the line to improve two way play is a futile exercise. Especially when Lindholm's Midas touch has played a big part in that line not being deeper underwater.

Yes, he's not the perfect winger for that line - we had the perfect winger for that line and packaged him in part for Lindholm. But he's not dragging it down either.

If you want to keep Monahan and Gaudreau together, move Monahan to RW and put a center who understands how to achieve shot suppression down the middle. Either Backlund or Bennett would be the best and obvious choices but even Jankowski and Dube would be an upgrade.

If you want to insist on Monahan at center out of sheer irrationality, then you need to split him up from Gaudreau who hasn't played well enough defensively since Hartley. Frolik-Monahan-Lindholm or (ew) Bennett-Monahan-Lindholm make the most sense.

Or you can keep doing what we've done for the last three years. Definition of insanity and all that, just like our power play.

Lol.

Also, this is bad:



Anyone saying the defensive system isn't a problem is lying to themselves, we look absolutely horrid.

 

[Anglesmith]

Lol.

Also, this is bad:



Anyone saying the defensive system isn't a problem is lying to themselves, we look absolutely horrid.

Yup, all those throngs of Flames fans who thought we played well in the last few games are sure looking bad right now.

 

[DFF]

Lol.

Also, this is bad:



Anyone saying the defensive system isn't a problem is lying to themselves, we look absolutely horrid.

Dude, we have the top 3 defense in the league

Anyway, why bother with defense, let's win 8-7, it's more fun

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Lol.

Also, this is bad:



Anyone saying the defensive system isn't a problem is lying to themselves, we look absolutely horrid.

The defensive system isn't a problem, though. Hathaway is a drag, Monahan's been awful, and Hamonic's been hurt. We have probably the youngest defense in the NHL between Hanifin, Valimaki, and Andersson which means one or two of the three can't be sheltered (right now Valimaki-Stone is the sheltered pair). And the Flames played two bad road games. The coach is new and there were bound to be growing pains. The Flames have only played a handful of home games, most against top dogs

Get Hamonic healthy. The Hanifin-Hamonic pair we saw in game 1 looked amazing.

Get Czarnik back in the lineup. He has by far the best 5v5 numbers on the team and a low SH% does not make him deserve press box time.

Get Bennett back at center and increase his minutes. Put Frolik with him and Neal and Czarnik back with Tkachuk and Backlund. Or put Czarnik with him. Let's get our nine best forwards in the top nine.

Break up Gaudreau-Monahan-Lindholm if they don't dominate the next game.

And be patient.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Lol.

Also, this is bad:



Anyone saying the defensive system isn't a problem is lying to themselves, we look absolutely horrid.

We literally do this every year. Except this year we are squeaking out some wins along with our terds.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

The Flames top line has half of the Flames total goals, they aren't holding the Flames back because of their defensive play. In 8 games they have been hemmed in 3-4 times, one of those was when 3/5 Flames players had the wrong stick. Also, Gaudreau doesn't play defence so it is essentially always a PK when the top line is in the d-zone.

People forget how important matchups are. Johnny and Sean have to play the Gio and the Backlund line of the other team..

They make everyone else’s job easier

 

[Flameshomer]

I'm borrowing this from Resolute 14 on the other site but it counters some of the lunacy in this thread very well. OKG you need to drop your Monahan hate. Bennett as our first line centre? I think you want the flames to go for Jack Hughes. I would like to see more bennett-tkachuk though.
Anyways, Monahan has played some bad games this season, yesterday in particular, but he has the ability to be a top center in the league.

Just for the sake of argument:

In their Stanley cup winning years

Backstrom, 2017-18: 48.59 HDCF%, 51.25 SCF%
Crosby, 2016-17: 57.72 , 56.57
Crosby, 2015-16: 54.11, 57.22
Toews, 2014-15: 50.84, 54.44
Kopitar, 2013-14: 62.50, 60.02
Toews, 2012-13: 63.11, 59.05
Kopitar, 2011-12: 58.49, 58.85
Bergeron, 2010-11: 53.98, 54.27
Toews, 2009-10: 60.23, 59.03
Crosby, 2008-09: 50.60, 52.38
Datsyuk, 2007-08: 63.64, 63.45

Monahan, 2017-18: 53.74, 54.15


Now, I'm not about to suggest that Monahan is in the league of those guys, because that'd be stupid. But if we're going to rely on the metrics that you and Kent Wilson are relying on, Monahan was comparable or better last year to five of the last 11 Stanley Cup seasons from the guys you list in terms of relative chances for vs. against. He looks a bit worse in terms of SCA/60, as he's comparable or better than just four (Backsrom 17-18, Crosby 16-17, Bergeron 10-11, Crosby 08-09).

And that was without a consistent right wing. Or a coach with any idea how to coach.

I will, of course, apply the same caveat to my own argument as I routinely do against others when using these numbers: these stats don't well represent how dreadful the Flames were last year at creating actual scoring chances. Or preventing them. And none of this changes the fact that the Flames have failed to show up consistently in several games already this year.

 

[viper0220]

I'm borrowing this from Resolute 14 on the other site but it counters some of the lunacy in this thread very well. OKG you need to drop your Monahan hate. Bennett as our first line centre? I think you want the flames to go for Jack Hughes. I would like to see more bennett-tkachuk though.
Anyways, Monahan has played some bad games this season, yesterday in particular, but he has the ability to be a top center in the league.

Could it be that Monahan is injured?

 

[Flameshomer]

Could it be that Monahan is injured?

I think its possible but I certainly hope not! Might just be early season still and his effort level has been off/on. Remember how poorly iggy would start seasons? Plus it's not even a bad start. Hes ppg right now and not getting caved in corsi wise, just failing the eye test a bit.