GDT: Polyethylene glycol purge vs detoilet (preds vs wings)

[PredsV82]

Forsberg is the ONLY forward on this team who can create and finish on his own. Other than some supposed hockey fake journalists no one in their right mind would ever consider trading him unless the offer was far above market value.

Is he a UFA at the end of this year? If so, and he wont resign, he absolutely is trade bait once the decision is made to sell

 

[nine_inch_fang]

If they start winning every game, even a dull, low scoring contest like last night, I'll be madly in love with Hynes.

Hell, I'm not even sure we know what his "system" truly even looks like.?.? Is Josi starting to figure out his place on offense in a system that is actually built for defensemen to play defense? Are the forwards getting used to carrying the puck and making things happen rather than standing and watching? Are we going to see a rejuvenated Rinne and capable looking Saros because of a solid defensive play rather than the chaos that we used to see?

I am by no means singing Hynes praises but I just can't figure out what people are seeing as players consistently and confidently playing a "system" that "just isn't going to work". The lack of effort (puck retrieval / board battles) we've seen this year or the lack of being able to connect passes (3 year olds playing checkers) in games like last night are not coaching issues.

 

[triggrman]

Is he a UFA at the end of this year? If so, and he wont resign, he absolutely is trade bait once the decision is made to sell

The end of next season

 

[Armourboy]

Hell, I'm not even sure we know what his "system" truly even looks like.?.? Is Josi starting to figure out his place on offense in a system that is actually built for defensemen to play defense? Are the forwards getting used to carrying the puck and making things happen rather than standing and watching? Are we going to see a rejuvenated Rinne and capable looking Saros because of a solid defensive play rather than the chaos that we used to see?

I am by no means singing Hynes praises but I just can't figure out what people are seeing as players consistently and confidently playing a "system" that "just isn't going to work". The lack of effort (puck retrieval / board battles) we've seen this year or the lack of being able to connect passes (3 year olds playing checkers) in games like last night are not coaching issues.

Yes and no. If the system puts you in a bad situation to make those plays to start with its going to make it much tougher. Hynes system completely destroys transition and breakaways that's for sure.

 

[PredsV82]

The end of next season

Ok then you obviously only trade him now if you have decided to go full rebuild.

Probably just Poile making a point to the other players.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Yes and no. If the system puts you in a bad situation to make those plays to start with its going to make it much tougher. Hynes system completely destroys transition and breakaways that's for sure.

I'm not sure how you can say his system destroys transition. From what he says his transition system is close support puck possession, teams have used that since the beginning of hockey and they still do.

I don't care to see the kind of "breakaway transition" they played with under Lavi, that is exactly what led to chaos and goals against with our diminished goalie play. The lack of possession by missed passes that go directly to the other team or turn into icing were killing this team.

If you're saying that our forwards aren't capable of skating with their heads up and send and receive close support passes effectively then I guess that's the wrong system for them. But, if you have actual reasons why a close support transition doesn't work then I would love to hear them.

 

[Legionnaire11]

I'd like to see a smart breakaway transition. One that picks spots and players. Meaning, pretty much right now it would be when Arvy or Rocco are on the ice and it would have to rely on seeing a specific setup presented on the ice, like we have two defensemen below our dots, and two forwards below our blueline with a chance to rifle a pass to a streaking Arvy or Rocco (ala, the old Kariya and Sullivan play). If the setup doesn't present itself, then you go for a controlled breakout of skating the puck out.

 

[Scoresberg]

The lack of effort (puck retrieval / board battles) we've seen this year or the lack of being able to connect passes (3 year olds playing checkers) in games like last night are not coaching issues.

See, the problem is that I don't even think it's been a lack of effort. They've battled back in games all year, and I don't think the effort has been the biggest issue.

The passing part can be appointed to a lack of confidence on the offensive side of things which is were the abysmal powerplay is a major factor.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

See, the problem is that I don't even think it's been a lack of effort. They've battled back in games all year, and I don't think the effort has been the biggest issue.

The passing part can be appointed to a lack of confidence on the offensive side of things which is were the abysmal powerplay is a major factor.

Change the word effort to "determination". You can't go into every 50/50 puck situation, lose it and say, "oh well, I was there and tried".

 

[Armourboy]

I'm not sure how you can say his system destroys transition. From what he says his transition system is close support puck possession, teams have used that since the beginning of hockey and they still do.

I don't care to see the kind of "breakaway transition" they played with under Lavi, that is exactly what led to chaos and goals against with our diminished goalie play. The lack of possession by missed passes that go directly to the other team or turn into icing were killing this team.

If you're saying that our forwards aren't capable of skating with their heads up and send and receive close support passes effectively then I guess that's the wrong system for them. But, if you have actual reasons why a close support transition doesn't work then I would love to hear them.

Except that transition doesn't exist in a bubble, it exists within the defensive structure as well and his defensive structure is essentially to have everyone collapse to the center. This means you are always transitioning from deep in your own zone, which gives teams plenty of time to recover and set. There is a reason we are constantly getting chewed up in the neutral zone and not doing much damage in the other teams zone. Yeah sure bad passing plays a part, but we are always fighting an uphill battle in the neutral zone, especially against good teams.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

I'd like to see a smart breakaway transition. One that picks spots and players. Meaning, pretty much right now it would be when Arvy or Rocco are on the ice and it would have to rely on seeing a specific setup presented on the ice, like we have two defensemen below our dots, and two forwards below our blueline with a chance to rifle a pass to a streaking Arvy or Rocco (ala, the old Kariya and Sullivan play). If the setup doesn't present itself, then you go for a controlled breakout of skating the puck out.

Of course you take your shots and head man the puck when it's there but as a coach coming to this team you'd have to break the habit where that is ALWAYS the first inclination. Then once the players start responding to that they have to figure what their job and positioning needs to be in a standard breakout.

Conceptually it's the same for me as not shooting from behind your own goalline with an empty net. Possess the puck, get it to the redline then take a shot. How many icing, faceoff loss, game tying goals against did we see because the team couldn't possess the puck out of the zone?

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Except that transition doesn't exist in a bubble, it exists within the defensive structure as well and his defensive structure is essentially to have everyone collapse to the center. This means you are always transitioning from deep in your own zone, which gives teams plenty of time to recover and set. There is a reason we are constantly getting chewed up in the neutral zone and not doing much damage in the other teams zone. Yeah sure bad passing plays a part, but we are always fighting an uphill battle in the neutral zone, especially against good teams.

Are you talking about forechecking system or defensive system? You seem to have combine the two but the are very different parts of the game.
In the defensive zone from what I can tell he wants to use a standard man/zone combo. This again is something this team hasn't done since Trotz and our offensive defensmen and wingers are having a hard time adjusting to.

The forechecking system is much harder to discuss without going to games and really seeing what is happening every shift and I don't know if I've heard him talk about that in interviews.

 

[Armourboy]

Are you talking about forechecking system or defensive system? You seem to have combine the two but the are very different parts of the game.
In the defensive zone from what I can tell he wants to use a standard man/zone combo. This again is something this team hasn't done since Trotz and our offensive defensmen and wingers are having a hard time adjusting to.

The forechecking system is much harder to discuss without going to games and really seeing what is happening every shift and I don't know if I've heard him talk about that in interviews.

You are talking about broad systems, I'm telling you what his system is actually doing, which oddly enough lines up exactly with what New Jersey fans were seeing too. Yes he may be playing a man/zone combo but within that he is having the guys collapse into the center of the ice. This has the effect of cutting down on high danger chances but comes at the expense of being in a position to transition up the ice quickly.

Our forechecking I couldn't tell you because you rarely see it, most of the time we seem to be dumping to change.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

You are talking about broad systems, I'm telling you what his system is actually doing, which oddly enough lines up exactly with what New Jersey fans were seeing too. Yes he may be playing a man/zone combo but within that he is having the guys collapse into the center of the ice. This has the effect of cutting down on high danger chances but comes at the expense of being in a position to transition up the ice quickly.

Our forechecking I couldn't tell you because you rarely see it, most of the time we seem to be dumping to change.

Let me reiterate that we have not yet seen a consistent and confident defensive zone system. To me it seems that the team basically started at square one again in the truncated preseason. Since we aren't in the locker or meeting rooms there is no way we as fans can know what the coach is asking of the players. Hynes does seem to be optimistic in interviews that the players are finally starting to feel comfortable and are reading and reacting to the plays within the system rather than second guessing themselves and chasing the play. Anything that resembles regression to Lavi's chaos or tentative second guessing is not what Hynes is asking his players to do.

If at some point Hynes seems to be happy with the execution of the defensive zone system and transitions but the team is still stifled and his only answer is to "roll the dice" with the line up then I will be 100% onboard with the "fire the coach" group.

 

[bdub24]

Recent events have caused me to re-evaluate. If the choice is between Hynes and Julien....I'll keep the loser we know.

 

[triggrman]

Let me reiterate that we have not yet seen a consistent and confident defensive zone system. To me it seems that the team basically started at square one again in the truncated preseason. Since we aren't in the locker or meeting rooms there is no way we as fans can know what the coach is asking of the players. Hynes does seem to be optimistic in interviews that the players are finally starting to feel comfortable and are reading and reacting to the plays within the system rather than second guessing themselves and chasing the play. Anything that resembles regression to Lavi's chaos or tentative second guessing is not what Hynes is asking his players to do.

If at some point Hynes seems to be happy with the execution of the defensive zone system and transitions but the team is still stifled and his only answer is to "roll the dice" with the line up then I will be 100% onboard with the "fire the coach" group.

Let me say that, if it is just learning the system before they can get more aggressive with it, than I'm okay with that, but if his system remains as passive in the defensive zone as we've seen so far, I'm full fire the coach. Also, be more aggressive in the neutral zone please attack it with speed by headmaning the puck. Having wingers completely stopped on the blueline waiting on the dump with their feet flat drives me bonkers.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

Let me say that, if it is just learning the system before they can get more aggressive with it, than I'm okay with that, but if his system remains as passive in the defensive zone as we've seen so far, I'm full fire the coach. Also, be more aggressive in the neutral zone please attack it with speed by headmaning the puck. Having wingers completely stopped on the blueline waiting on the dump with their feet flat drives me bonkers.

Completely agree, I'm hoping we start to see more aggressive play in the Dzone.

Surely a coach that is preaching close support puck possession transitions and is as involved in USA hockey as Hynes is isn't preaching a dump and chase offensive system but it has been a crutch the forwards have used to "enter the zone". Again, I'm hoping that will get fixed as the forwards get more used to not only passing through the neutral zone/offensive blueline but getting open off the puck. If I'm remembering correctly Lavi's system was either a long bomb pass to a breaking forward or a stagnate forward if it was a set up break out or the Dmen carrying the puck.

 

[Armourboy]

This idea of a system apparently never really came to fruition in New Jersey either. I thinkvits a matter of it being something that works as an idea, or works in leagues where the talent is not as good, but when you get it up with the big boys it just doesn't work.

You see the same thing alot when coordinators try to bring their systems from college to the pros. The speed of defenses just chews some of them up.

 

[nine_inch_fang]

This idea of a system apparently never really came to fruition in New Jersey either. I thinkvits a matter of it being something that works as an idea, or works in leagues where the talent is not as good, but when you get it up with the big boys it just doesn't work.

You see the same thing alot when coordinators try to bring their systems from college to the pros. The speed of defenses just chews some of them up.

Meh, honestly don't give a rat's ass about NJ. I have no idea about their personnel or the issues that they had while he was there. This kind of confirmation bias isn't my cup of tea. This fan base wanted Trotz gone in 2003 and that never changed until he was finally fired but now he's the Beez Kneez.

Close support puck possession works all around the NHL. Whether it'll work with this personnel or this coach I have no idea but this isn't some new found experimental concept. These forwards have to make and receive passes through the neutral zone, they haven't been asked to do that in years or at all if they've only played for Lavi.

 

[Armourboy]

Meh, honestly don't give a rat's ass about NJ. I have no idea about their personnel or the issues that they had while he was there. This kind of confirmation bias isn't my cup of tea. This fan base wanted Trotz gone in 2003 and that never changed until he was finally fired but now he's the Beez Kneez.

Close support puck possession works all around the NHL. Whether it'll work with this personnel or this coach I have no idea but this isn't some new found experimental concept. These forwards have to make and receive passes through the neutral zone, they haven't been asked to do that in years or at all if they've only played for Lavi.

So let's just ignore a coaches previously failed attempt where the fan base was seeing the exact same issues we are because Trotz. Yeah that makes sense.

Well enjoy being the only person around the NHL defending Hynes other than maybe David Poile.

 

[adsfan]

Meh, honestly don't give a rat's ass about NJ. I have no idea about their personnel or the issues that they had while he was there. This kind of confirmation bias isn't my cup of tea. This fan base wanted Trotz gone in 2003 and that never changed until he was finally fired but now he's the Beez Kneez.

Close support puck possession works all around the NHL. Whether it'll work with this personnel or this coach I have no idea but this isn't some new found experimental concept. These forfour wards have to make and receive passes through the neutral zone, they haven't been asked to do that in years or at all if they've only played for Lavi.

I would like to review Barry Trotz's years in Nashville.

The first five seasons, they missed the playoffs. They had 28, 28, 34, 28 and 27 wins 1998-03. (They didn't get a sweetheart deal like Vegas!)

The next four seasons, they went out in the first round. They had 38, 49, 51 and 41 wins. (The big fire sale happened after the 2006-2007, the 51 win season.)

Then 40 wins and no playoffs for 2008-09.

Then 47 wins and lost in round 1.

Then 44 and 48 wins and lost in round 2.

Then two years out of the playoffs with 16 wins in 48 games, and 38 wins in 2013-14.

In 15 seasons that were played, the high water mark was losing in round 2 twice.

"The Man with no Neck" was handicapped the first 5 seasons. Then when the team had two successful regular seasons, they couldn't get passed the first round. Then the fire sale hurt the team for 2 or 3 years. (I had expected 5 down years).


Lavy comes in and with home ice ad they lose 4-2 to Chicago, who went on to win the SC in 2015.

The next season the Preds beat the Ducks in 7 games and lost to WC Champ Sharks in 7 games.

Then the Preds went to the Stanley Cup Finals in 2017!!

Then the Preds won the Presidents' Trophy in 2018!

Then the Predators fired head coach Laviolette in the middle of the 2019–20 season on January 6, 2020, with the team sitting at sixth place in the division at the time and a record of 19–15–7.


I definitely would not have held onto Trotz. The team probably held on to Barry for 2 more seasons then they should have using hindsight (Hynesight?).

 

[GoldOnGold]

I would like to review Barry Trotz's years in Nashville.

The first five seasons, they missed the playoffs. They had 28, 28, 34, 28 and 27 wins 1998-03. (They didn't get a sweetheart deal like Vegas!)

The next four seasons, they went out in the first round. They had 38, 49, 51 and 41 wins. (The big fire sale happened after the 2006-2007, the 51 win season.)

Then 40 wins and no playoffs for 2008-09.

Then 47 wins and lost in round 1.

Then 44 and 48 wins and lost in round 2.

Then two years out of the playoffs with 16 wins in 48 games, and 38 wins in 2013-14.

In 15 seasons that were played, the high water mark was losing in round 2 twice.

"The Man with no Neck" was handicapped the first 5 seasons. Then when the team had two successful regular seasons, they couldn't get passed the first round. Then the fire sale hurt the team for 2 or 3 years. (I had expected 5 down years).


Lavy comes in and with home ice ad they lose 4-2 to Chicago, who went on to win the SC in 2015.

The next season the Preds beat the Ducks in 7 games and lost to WC Champ Sharks in 7 games.

Then the Preds went to the Stanley Cup Finals in 2017!!

Then the Preds won the Presidents' Trophy in 2018!

Then the Predators fired head coach Laviolette in the middle of the 2019–20 season on January 6, 2020, with the team sitting at sixth place in the division at the time and a record of 19–15–7.


I definitely would not have held onto Trotz. The team probably held on to Barry for 2 more seasons then they should have using hindsight (Hynesight?).

Trotz and Lavi are both definitely great coaches, but even a great coach can wear out his effectiveness after a while.

 

[triggrman]

Lavy apparently refused to fire an assistant coach which is why he was fired so quick

 

[nine_inch_fang]

So let's just ignore a coaches previously failed attempt where the fan base was seeing the exact same issues we are because Trotz. Yeah that makes sense.

Well enjoy being the only person around the NHL defending Hynes other than maybe David Poile.

Yes, I will ignore opinions from people I know nothing about in a situation I know nothing about and I will form my own opinion and ideas based on the actions and results that I see for myself. Seems foolish not to doesn't it?

At no point have I defended Hynes, sorry you're not capable of discussing hockey in a nuanced way and it has to be hate and vitriol or love and rainbows for you. Converse to your assertion I've actually given examples of why I don't support firing him today or yesterday like you want and I've expressed issues, if not resolved, that will bring me over to the fire him camp.

 

[triggrman]

I believe every coach has a shelf life with a group of core players, I believe you develop too much of a pattern and change is needed.