Poll: Should DA be fired?

[Stupendous Yappi]

Ah yes but Army has basically been running the player side for 10 years. It went like this . On May 29, 2008, the St. Louis Blues announced they have named Armstrong as the club's director of player personnel after signing him to a two-year contract. When the two years were to expire, Armstrong was to assume the general manager position after incumbent

to be beneficial for Dallas' offence.
St. Louis Blues[edit]

On May 29, 2008, the St. Louis Blues announced they have named Armstrong as the club's director of player personnel after signing him to a two-year contract. When the two years were to expire, Armstrong was to assume the general manager position after incumbent Larry Pleau's retirement;[2] Pleau was to stay on with the team in another capacity. You got that ?

Who hired Armstrong? You were talking about wanting a new owner other than Stillman. Now you’re changing the subject because what you said made no sense.

 

[larueskee]

Who hired Armstrong? You were talking about wanting a new owner other than Stillman. Now you’re changing the subject because what you said made no sense.

I did not change the subject. you implied that Army hasn't been in charge for 10 years. I linked the fact that he was appointed to the director of player personnel on May 29 2008. That is over 10 years of managing the Blues on ice product. Now back to Stillman. He did not hire Army but he did have a say in hiring Army. He has given Army 2 contract extension. He was a part of the Blues ownership group while Dave Checketts was the majority share holder. I never stated that Stillman give up his small share of ownership ( I understand his share is small and that he is not the majority owner ) but the managing partner. My desire would be to have the ownership group vote to take control of the franchise from Stillman and to elect a new chairman who can turn this thing around. Stillman can still pretend to be a big shot but he has failed. Attendance and revenue a look to be headed downward again this year. Weak ticket sales, recent cuts in ticket packages, and a sure miss of the playoffs are all serious to the ownership group.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Stop it. Seriously, you're going to ding Stillman for decisions made about DA when Stillman was a minority owner with no say in team decisions? I get the most recent contract extension. That's fair game for criticism. I criticized it. I criticized the bloat in front office personnel, the obsession with ex-Stars players, ... but seriously, all of that was going on pre-Stillman becoming the controlling partner. You're really going to hang him for everything before that simply because of your intense dislike for DA?

And again, this obsession with the rest of ownership taking control away from Stillman. Did it occur to you that most of ownership doesn't want to be making decisions and they're backing the team as party of trying to be good corporate citizens and ensuring the team stays here? And who in the ownership group do you want in charge instead? I get saying Stillman hasn't made a smart decision backing DA like he has, but for crying out loud, use some common sense here.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I did not change the subject. you implied that Army hasn't been in charge for 10 years. I linked the fact that he was appointed to the director of player personnel on May 29 2008. That is over 10 years of managing the Blues on ice product. Now back to Stillman. He did not hire Army but he did have a say in hiring Army. He has given Army 2 contract extension. He was a part of the Blues ownership group while Dave Checketts was the majority share holder. I never stated that Stillman give up his small share of ownership ( I understand his share is small and that he is not the majority owner ) but the managing partner. My desire would be to have the ownership group vote to take control of the franchise from Stillman and to elect a new chairman who can turn this thing around. Stillman can still pretend to be a big shot but he has failed. Attendance and revenue a look to be headed downward again this year. Weak ticket sales, recent cuts in ticket packages, and a sure miss of the playoffs are all serious to the ownership group.

You said Stillman gave Armstrong 10 years. I pointed out that was totally false. Now you’re throwing good money after bad.

You may want a new owner representative, and that’s your opinion. But don’t try to force your false reasons down my throat. I also strongly disagree that this would help anything.

 

[larueskee]

You said Stillman gave Armstrong 10 years. I pointed out that was totally false. Now you’re throwing good money after bad.

You may want a new owner representative, and that’s your opinion. But don’t try to force your false reasons down my throat. I also strongly disagree that this would help anything.

Nothing I stated was false. Army has been here ten years and Stillman has been minority a owner since the team was purchased from Laurie. So in effect Stillman has been around for all of Armstrongs time in the lou. It doesn't matter who signed Army in 2010 but that contract was one that handed out while Stillman was around. Currently, with Stillman's last foolish extension the Blues have committed for Army until the year 2022. That would be a 14 year run if Army were to last through his latest extension. Now no in forcing any FALSE reasons down any ones throat. Just stating facts and my own opinion that Army and Stillman both need to go. Stillman for the fact that for the last 6 years the team has gotten worse and he chose to extend Army. Yes the team has gotten worse every year. Point totals have dropped every year since 2013-2014. Projected point this year are 68. They are in last place at the moment and a third of the season is gone.

 

[larueskee]

Stop it. Seriously, you're going to ding Stillman for decisions made about DA when Stillman was a minority owner with no say in team decisions? I get the most recent contract extension. That's fair game for criticism. I criticized it. I criticized the bloat in front office personnel, the obsession with ex-Stars players, ... but seriously, all of that was going on pre-Stillman becoming the controlling partner. You're really going to hang him for everything before that simply because of your intense dislike for DA?

And again, this obsession with the rest of ownership taking control away from Stillman. Did it occur to you that most of ownership doesn't want to be making decisions and they're backing the team as party of trying to be good corporate citizens and ensuring the team stays here? And who in the ownership group do you want in charge instead? I get saying Stillman hasn't made a smart decision backing DA like he has, but for crying out loud, use some common sense here.

If I had the opportunity to ding Stillman I would have yes. I like him as a owner no doubt about it but I don't see him as a effective manager. He has not managed the team from his chairman position. Extending Army is one example, allowing the fraternity of Blues, Stars, and hofers to cash checks with no real role is another. The team had no minor league affiliate of their own for 2-3 years. It has been a mess. Point totals dropping for the last 6 years would not be tolerated in other franchises.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

If I had the opportunity to ding Stillman I would have yes. I like him as a owner no doubt about it but I don't see him as a effective manager. He has not managed the team from his chairman position. Extending Army is one example, allowing the fraternity of Blues, Stars, and hofers to cash checks with no real role is another. The team had no minor league affiliate of their own for 2-3 years. It has been a mess. Point totals dropping for the last 6 years would not be tolerated in other franchises.

Last season was the only year they didnt' have an AHL affiliate.

 

[Multigrain]

Ooops...I see another DA poll. Sorry for the repeat.

Maybe the question should be who is the next GM?

Bill Armstrong?
Al MacInnis?
Chris Pronger?​

Al MacInnis

 

[Multigrain]

Actually, Armstrong had experience taking an elite roster and making it steadily worse and a chronic playoff underachiever. [Kind of sounds familiar.]


Yzerman had 4 years under Ken Holland, but also spent a decent amount of time learning from the side as a player. He also had Steve Stamkos on his roster, which is a pretty good building block to start with.

Sakic had about 3 years as an advisor before officially assuming the GM duties; even that final year when he was largely doing GM stuff, he had Greg Sherman helping and even now Sherman's around as needed. Who's going to fill that role if you bring Pronger in and make him the GM? Dave Taylor's about the only guy in the organization who has experience as a GM, but he's a DA hire; if you're cleaning out the front office does he get the boot too?


Well, I did once upon a time think Therrien would lead the Canadiens to a Cup. Once upon a time - you know, before he got canned by the Habs, then the Pens, then the Habs [again].

Keefe, ... someone elsewhere brought up a good point. Remember when Dallas Eakins was the hot name on the market because of his success with the Marlies? Then he went to Edmonton and ... well, he's not nearly the hot name he used to be. The thought is that Keefe looks great because it's the Marlies and Toronto can plow all kinds of resources into hockey ops; if you put him somewhere that can't freely lob those $, is he going to still look that good? I'm lobbing it out as food for thought, not to argue that he's not a guy to be considered.


That's narrowing the field to an incredibly small couple of guys and making the search unrealistic. Dean Lombardi would be the only choice available, but by all accounts he's tied to the Flyers for a couple years with a pretty iron-clad contract. If we're going to look for a guy with some past management experience who might fit well, I'd look at the following:

* Tom Fitzgerald, assistant GM in New Jersey. Not sure if he would want to leave New Jersey seeing as how his family has set roots there, but with Brodeur back in the Devils organization and Shero inching toward thin ice, but he's got a decent amount of experience [even if a large part of it is under Shero] and most reports think very highly of him. I think you give it a shot.
* Bill Zito, assistant GM in Columbus. He's been AGM there for a while now, and he's a former agent so he's familiar with both sides of the table. He's watched what Kekalainen has done building up the Blue Jackets, so he could bring some of that experience with him. Again, not sure he jumps Columbus for St. Louis but I think you give it a shot. [Note: Philadelphia is thought to be pursuing him.]
* Mike Vellucci, assistant GM in Carolina. Also the head coach at Charlotte [AHL]. He ran operations in Plymouth [OHL] and the Whalers were competitive year in and year out. [Also had good success with Detroit Compuware in the NAHL in the mid-90s, so maybe you also look at him as a head coaching candidate?]
* Bill Guerin, assistant GM in Pittsburgh. Highly regarded by many, considered a future GM somewhere, but seems to be the eventual heir to Jim Rutherford's position as GM.

Otherwise, if you're going off the board:
* Brian Burke. [Nah, just kidding - though I'd be tempted to bring him in for a year to be a special advisor to give a really critical look at the franchise and suggest improvements.]
* Pierre McGuire. [Nah, just kidding. Almost entirely.]

I know the McGuire thing is funny but could he be a decent GM?

 

[Majorityof1]

If I had the opportunity to ding Stillman I would have yes. I like him as a owner no doubt about it but I don't see him as a effective manager. He has not managed the team from his chairman position. Extending Army is one example, allowing the fraternity of Blues, Stars, and hofers to cash checks with no real role is another. The team had no minor league affiliate of their own for 2-3 years. It has been a mess. Point totals dropping for the last 6 years would not be tolerated in other franchises.

Its funny how nobody (except @Ranksu ) complained too much when Army was extended. However now that we suck, Stillman should be taken to task for not having the foresight to realize it was a mistake. Foresight nobody but Ranksu had. Hindsight is 20/20, foresight is a lot more murkier.

 

[Multigrain]

What is the deal with Stillman? He is the spokesperson for the ownership group, not sure how many other members of the group have actual interest or just look at this as an investment opportunity. The city it seems is one that can't keep sports teams there. The whole ownership group needs to cough up the money to invest in their coaching staff and make some active trades to keep this team afloat.

 

[Multigrain]

You can have a new GM here tomorrow, but until the players start to actually give a **** and play with heart. No GM is going to fix that with the current roster. Worst damn part about the NHL is guranteed contracts, Those players are getting their money regardless. So clearly there are still some of them that are too much a passenger.

Possibly time to cleanse the locker room?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If I had the opportunity to ding Stillman I would have yes. I like him as a owner no doubt about it but I don't see him as a effective manager. He has not managed the team from his chairman position. Extending Army is one example, allowing the fraternity of Blues, Stars, and hofers to cash checks with no real role is another. The team had no minor league affiliate of their own for 2-3 years. It has been a mess. Point totals dropping for the last 6 years would not be tolerated in other franchises.

While all valid, you then go back to Armstrong being hired 10 years ago and try to pin some of that on Stillman. That's where your statements fall apart.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Its funny how nobody (except @Ranksu ) complained too much when Army was extended. However now that we suck, Stillman should be taken to task for not having the foresight to realize it was a mistake. Foresight nobody but Ranksu had. Hindsight is 20/20, foresight is a lot more murkier.

Had I been around, you would have seen me criticize it. When the best defense of DA's work is "he wins trades" while actual results suck in the part of the season we really care about and deteriorate elsewhere, you gotta start asking whether we're really winning some of those trades in the long run.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I know the McGuire thing is funny but could he be a decent GM?

If we're going clean slate and you're talking about putting in guys who have little if any prior management experience, ... he's seen the league for years, he's got lots of insight as an analyst. I don't know he leaves TV for a GM gig, but why the hell not talk to him and see what he says? Talking doesn't mean you're giving him the job, and who knows, maybe you get ideaa you can use to build the franchise regardless of who becomes GM.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I like Pierre. He's knowledgeable and very dedicated to hockey. He's just got a weird but friendly vibe around him.

Pretty much anyone hired has to have good support. He needs legal experts, capologists, analytics people, PR experts, amateur and pro scouting. Your GM is not going to excel in all those areas without personnel to carry the water in each department. In other words, the GM has to be a MANAGER first and foremost. That's where I think some of the names thrown around get iffy. We don't have any idea how well those people are at organizing.

 

[larueskee]

While all valid, you then go back to Armstrong being hired 10 years ago and try to pin some of that on Stillman. That's where your statements fall apart.

I exhibited that Stillman was around has a owner during the Checketts era. I did not exhibit that he lobbied for the hire but I believe he did.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I exhibited that Stillman was around has a owner during the Checketts era. I did not exhibit that he lobbied for the hire but I believe he did.

Yeah, because Checketts and SCP were making all team-related decisions with the full backing of Towerbrook except this one position where they deferred to Stillman, who decided to call in DA on a whim and Checketts et. al. decided "yeah, hey, sure, let's give the guy who has half the stake we do in the team the leeway to make this major decision for us.

I mean, the more sensible idea is that John Davidson [that guy who was the team president at the time] decided to make the call to hire DA to be the GM-in-waiting knowing that Larry Pleau wanted to step down because of his wife's health, and Davidson found DA because of JD's extensive time around the hockey world and decided that at 43, DA had lots of years ahead of him where he might be able to stick around with the franchise, but no - let's go way off the ranch and say that Stillman happened to pick DA's name out of the 2008 "Who's Who in Ice Hockey" book that was just released in late April, and decided wow, this guy really knows his stuff when it comes to building teams, I gotta run to Checketts and convince him that's the guy who's going to move this franchise light years forward!

 

[PiggySmalls]

Possibly time to cleanse the locker room?

Absolutely. But whether it is DA or a new GM. How many steps back will they have to take in order to move forward. The last season core has got to be broken up. Army brought in enough new players to shake up the roster, yet. Yet the core and how they are playing has not changed.

 

[PiggySmalls]

I like Pierre. He's knowledgeable and very dedicated to hockey. He's just got a weird but friendly vibe around him.

I like radio Pierre. He is a different beast when he comes on every Wednesday morning on Stellick & Simmer. It’s like he knows his TV broadcast needs to be adjusted for the casual fan. But when he is on the radio, there is none of this “Dunn’s favorite power ranger in juniors was the green one.”

I think he would do alright, I just don’t know how well of a money manager he would be. He’d damn sure be better than Mil Milbury.