Post-Game Talk: Plus-Minus Thread | Penguins 5, Lightning 3

[HMPens]

Do you actually think that?

It's what all the cool kids are saying.

 

[Glamor Toad]

It's what all the cool kids are saying.

Maybe he meant that Letang has looked horrible on the PP lately. That would make more sense, but still be kind of hyperbolic

 

[Glamor Toad]

I watched some highlights today and wanted to give Cookie a + for his offensive creativity tonight. That Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis line looks goooood.

Also, Bennett's goal was a little more difficult than I remembered. It took serious skill to uncork a hard one-timer against a big goalie that was anticipating the play. Not to mention that Crosby's pass as a bullet.
Forgive me if I'm rambling, but I'm excited!

 

[Tasty Biscuits]

Ya, trust me I keep thinking of that scenario. Having Vitale and his clone on the same line would be a nightmare for other teams.

I'm just not seeing anything special with Glass. I know he may be more valuable in the playoffs, but having two guys who aren't great skaters on your fourth line, can be a problem.

The fourth line consistently gets trapped in their own zone for long stretches, and a big reason for that is the lack of foot speed from Adams/Glass. Their zones get stretched out and they don't cover enough ground on the wall to pinch off the point. It's frustrating to watch.

On the flip side, Vitale is always the one who initiates the forecheck and pressures the puck. He is the reason that line looks better than it is. Every time he is out that line looks a step behind.

Yes. I would love to see a Sill-Vitale-Farnham 4th line sometime in the future. If not next year, then soon after hopefully.

 

[Fordy]

I watched some highlights today and wanted to give Cookie a + for his offensive creativity tonight. That Cooke-Sutter-Dupuis line looks goooood.

Also, Bennett's goal was a little more difficult than I remembered. It took serious skill to uncork a hard one-timer against a big goalie that was anticipating the play. Not to mention that Crosby's pass as a bullet.
Forgive me if I'm rambling, but I'm excited!

I didn't notice until watching it back again, but he actually called for the puck.

 

[StutzlesTapeJob]

Aside from the faceoffs i don't get the all out man crushes on Vitale. Nothing against him. He plays his role well. But he is nothing "special" (even among 4th line players). Nothing i have seen from him makes me think our record would be different if Victory Joe was gone.

I will admit, his wingers likely limit his opportunity to play 3rd line caliber hockey.

 

[jmelm]

I'm not sure how much credence I give the "Engo is in flux because 1)he is playing his offside or 2)he is playing with a dynamic D partner who isn't consistent" argument. Maybe this is just in my personal experience, but I have never had an issue switching from right D to left D. I have known a few guys that preferred it, but it was always because of the position that it puts your shot, not because of defensive positioning.

That's fine, but things are very different at the NHL level. There's almost no margin for error and with the immensely quick and skilled forwards coming at you with the puck, things as suble as that make a difference.

It also depends A LOT on how maid the player in question has actually played that off-side. For certain guys who have done it a lot (i.e. Martin), it's very easy. For guys who haven't done it much, haven't done it at the pro level, or haven't done it in a long time, there's a big adjustment. None of us know if/how much/how long it's been since Engo ever played the off-side regularly. And it's much less common for right-handed defenders to play the off-side (Letang, for example, has never looked good there 5 on 5).

I just think that the guy is in a slump. We know both Despres and Engelland can (and must) play better. If we don't see them step it up by April, we are going to need a vet #5 physical, crease-clearing defensement to compliment Bort

I don't think so, because when he started the season, he was very steady. It's just in the last handful of games with rotating partners he has looked lost at times, IMO.

 

[Candyman]

Aside from the faceoffs i don't get the all out man crushes on Vitale. Nothing against him. He plays his role well. But he is nothing "special" (even among 4th line players). Nothing i have seen from him makes me think our record would be different if Victory Joe was gone.

I will admit, his wingers likely limit his opportunity to play 3rd line caliber hockey.

Blasphemy!!! The Pittsburgh Penguins are not 13-6. The Pittsburgh Vitale's are 13-6!

 

[Zen Arcade]

Ya, trust me I keep thinking of that scenario. Having Vitale and his clone on the same line would be a nightmare for other teams.

I'm just not seeing anything special with Glass. I know he may be more valuable in the playoffs, but having two guys who aren't great skaters on your fourth line, can be a problem.

The fourth line consistently gets trapped in their own zone for long stretches, and a big reason for that is the lack of foot speed from Adams/Glass. Their zones get stretched out and they don't cover enough ground on the wall to pinch off the point. It's frustrating to watch.

On the flip side, Vitale is always the one who initiates the forecheck and pressures the puck. He is the reason that line looks better than it is. Every time he is out that line looks a step behind.

Seeing those two forecheck and cycle would be a thing of beauty.

It would also be nice to have the Pens' 4th line getting under the skin of the skill players on opposing teams, we haven't seen that for a while.

I think Glass is fine, when Adams is done, Glass can fill his role. He and Adams are fairly similar in a lot of ways, which is probably more of an issue than either of their individual performances. I've been satisfied with the way they've both played thus far.

 

[End of Line]

I was looking at the D stats today and Letang is at a PPG pace (15 points, 16 games) which is crazy to think, 2nd among all defenseman. Martin has 14 as well.

 

[ColePens]

For the Vitale haters... how can you not like a 4th liner at league min winning 66.7% of faceoffs, fights when we need some momentum, wins battles consistently, draws penalties, is very noticeable with limited minutes, and even can help secondary scoring?

How is a player like that a dime/dozen? 4th liners and bottom 6 depth can make or break a team. Take Chicago for instance. They are actually winning with depth right now. Their bottom six is playing great. If you take a look at some of our old 4th line centers, I really would choose Vitale over every single one of 'em.

 

[wheelz87]

+Sid. Don't have to get into that one.
+BB. Welcome to the NHL! Looking forward to many more goals.
+DB using BB on the PP. Talent rules on the PP! Thank you for using him, and hopefully it will show what having a RHS on the left side of the PP can do. You want to over-committ to Sid and Geno on the right side? Fine! We have somebody on the other side that can beat you now.
+Fleury. 1st goal annoyed me, but another great game.
+Martin. Where the **** was this guy last year??

=Vitale. Played a great game, was getting under everyone's skin. (Why is Lecavlier such a ***** when he plays us?) Stupid fight at the end of the 1st up 3-0 though, woke up TB.
=Neal. Not particulary noticeable.. in fact I noticed Kunitz WAY more. And you gotta be the go to guy with Sid, not Kunitz.

-Despres. Thought he had a rough one. Unfortunately will probably get him benched for the next 10 games.
-Jeffrey. Was hoping to get more out of him than he showed last night.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Seeing those two forecheck and cycle would be a thing of beauty.

It would also be nice to have the Pens' 4th line getting under the skin of the skill players on opposing teams, we haven't seen that for a while.

I think Glass is fine, when Adams is done, Glass can fill his role. He and Adams are fairly similar in a lot of ways, which is probably more of an issue than either of their individual performances. I've been satisfied with the way they've both played thus far.

Ya, I'm thinking of next season, because obviously DB isn't benching Adams or Glass for an untested rookie in the A.

I'm ok with that line when Vitale is there to establish the forecheck and force the puck carrier to reverse the play, etc.

However, hearing DB talk like this can be a shutdown line is the reason I'm bringing up my concerns with Adams/Glass skating together. DB has to be pranking the media with that kind of insanity. There is no way he can't see the common weakness of those two.

Vitale is the ****, but he can't cover down low and push both points at the same time, cover the entire ice in quick transition, etc.

Speed kills and Adams and Glass don't have the skating to be shutdown guys agt top lines.

 

[mpp9]

I'd like to see Sid and Sutter get matched up with a team's best lines. Use Geno and the 4th line in the offensive zone as much as possible.

 

[Captain Hook]

I think Glass is fine as a skater and defensive forward. He's just a black hole offensively. I do think Vitale is a guy that can get under skill players skin and he's money on faceoffs.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ya, I'm thinking of next season, because obviously DB isn't benching Adams or Glass for an untested rookie in the A.

I'm ok with that line when Vitale is there to establish the forecheck and force the puck carrier to reverse the play, etc.

However, hearing DB talk like this can be a shutdown line is the reason I'm bringing up my concerns with Adams/Glass skating together. DB has to be pranking the media with that kind of insanity. There is no way he can't see the common weakness of those two.

Vitale is the ****, but he can't cover down low and push both points at the same time, cover the entire ice in quick transition, etc.

Speed kills and Adams and Glass don't have the skating to be shutdown guys agt top lines.

Except Bylsma matched them up against Stamkos and St Louis last night more often than not. Right move? No. Does he believe what he told the media? Absolutely he does.

 

[SaturdayNightSlegr]

I'm just curious why people feel that our system, especially defensively, is bad? Why do people always insist that every goal that the other team scores is due to the opposing coach making these great adjustments, and "out coaching" DB?

Let's look at tonight's 3 goals against.
1) A bad turnover that Orpik flubbed 2-3 times. He had plenty of time and space and just failed to make the play. The puck comes back into our zone and eventually takes a bad bounce off of Orpik and in. That is on execution and a little bad luck.

2) 5-3 PP goal mainly because Adams took a needless penalty at a bad time. Whether you agree with the call or not, there was no reason he needed to chase the guy behind TB's net when we are short. That results in a wide open 5 on 3 PP goal for on of the leagues best scorers. Chalk that goal up to bad decision making on Adam's part.

3) Shot from the point that goes off of Vitale's skate right thru Orpik to Conacher wide open on the back door. Another Flukey bounce.

Why do people think that these are due to being "out coached" or "poor systems"?

Here here. Also, Tampa by far is highest scoring team in the league.

Counterpoint: fluery saved our bacon way too many times. 2 breakaways, several key saves on msl

 

[AquaticBirdman]

Anyone else think TK has been looking better these past few games?

 

[jmelm]

Anyone else think TK has been looking better these past few games?

No question, he has been getting better & better. The effort is there, and the heart & spark that TK brings has started to come back out. But unless that starts to translate into production, he's still a weak link in the chain.

 

[MrBurghundy]

Anyone else think TK has been looking better these past few games?

TK looked like dog **** last game.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Anyone else think TK has been looking better these past few games?

I do not. I think the Florida game might have been his worst of the season.

 

[KIRK]

+Sid. Don't have to get into that one.
+BB. Welcome to the NHL! Looking forward to many more goals.
+DB using BB on the PP. Talent rules on the PP! Thank you for using him, and hopefully it will show what having a RHS on the left side of the PP can do. You want to over-committ to Sid and Geno on the right side? Fine! We have somebody on the other side that can beat you now.
+Fleury. 1st goal annoyed me, but another great game.
+Martin. Where the **** was this guy last year??

=Vitale. Played a great game, was getting under everyone's skin. (Why is Lecavlier such a ***** when he plays us?) Stupid fight at the end of the 1st up 3-0 though, woke up TB.
=Neal. Not particulary noticeable.. in fact I noticed Kunitz WAY more. And you gotta be the go to guy with Sid, not Kunitz.

-Despres. Thought he had a rough one. Unfortunately will probably get him benched for the next 10 games.
-Jeffrey. Was hoping to get more out of him than he showed last night.

Perhaps you should hold off on that assessment to see if Bennett sniffs a top unit 5 on 4 when Geno returns. I'm not sure he'd have even sniffed the 5 on 3 on Sunday if Geno is healthy.

 

[IcedCapp]

hey, KIRK, since I know this was an issue for you in the past, did you check out the ice times for the centers against Tampa?

There is absolutely no weight given to how good you are. Times are based on what line you're on...

 

[KIRK]

hey, KIRK, since I know this was an issue for you in the past, did you check out the ice times for the centers against Tampa?

There is absolutely no weight given to how good you are. Times are based on what line you're on...

I saw. Sid's ice time actually was down. The other guys got more time with Geno out. You'd expect the opposite.

The one good thing is that Neal got top winger ice time ES instead of being a few minutes ES behind Kunitz and Dupuis like he usually is.

But, yeah, there's no rhyme or reason to any of it. The last thing you'd think, with Geno out, is that Sid would get less ice time.

 

[JQR]

I saw. Sid's ice time actually was down. The other guys got more time with Geno out. You'd expect the opposite.

The one good thing is that Neal got top winger ice time ES instead of being a few minutes ES behind Kunitz and Dupuis like he usually is.

But, yeah, there's no rhyme or reason to any of it. The last thing you'd think, with Geno out, is that Sid would get less ice time.

I could maybe chalk that up to wanting to figure out the 2nd / 3rd lines. We all know Crosby's line is solid, might as well work on the other lines while they are playing non-division (and arguably easier) teams.

EDIT: Let's not forget Bylsma's strategy of matching the Pens 4th line against TB's 1st as well.