Post-Game Talk: Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Sens: I hate this team

[Gurglesons]

Judging by ZAR - Brassard - Rust last night, I have no problem with Simon - Brassard - Rust.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think Pearson is likely more of a 3rd wheel himself. But we'll have to wait and see.


do we?

The 3rd line has produced pretty well lately.

Maybe/maybe not.

The 3rd line has been a mixed bag. Very hard to tag any given 3rd line as being locked in.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe/maybe not.

The 3rd line has been a mixed bag. Very hard to tag any given 3rd line as being locked in.

Outside of the West Canadian trip where our depth was fine. The whole team has been terrible. We are back into a flow and the bottom six has been good during that point. Whenever they aren’t producing we are losing games.

Look at the most successful teams in the league right now. The top six is carrying them. Malkin needs to step up.

Look at our last six games. The bottom six has a goal in five of them. We lose those games in OT or because of a SH against the top unit.

Weird to blame the bottom six for those..

I’m of the train of thought if the bottom six scores a goal you should win the game.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Maybe/maybe not.

The 3rd line has been a mixed bag. Very hard to tag any given 3rd line as being locked in.

of course not when we haven't locked in either top 6 line.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Outside of the West Canadian trip where our depth was fine. The whole team has been terrible. We are back into a flow and the bottom six has been good during that point. Whenever they aren’t producing we are losing games.

Look at the most successful teams in the league right now. The top six is carrying them. Malkin needs to step up.

Look at our last six games. The bottom six has a goal in five of them. We lose those games in OT or because of a SH against the top unit.

Weird to blame the bottom six for those..

Who's talking about blaming them?

I'm going with who the individuals are and who's not fitting in with what they are trying to do.

Malkin not getting hat tricks means he needs to step up? Sure, but it's not as if he isn't chipping in.

Top lines has been seeing guys with hat tricks this year. 3 of them, Crosby, Guentzel and Hornqvist. Who was Hornqvist slated with that game? Malkin. He assisted on one, was on the ice for the PPG and the unassisted one Geno was on the guy and made him send a weak attempt out that sat there for Hornqvist. He figured into all three.

Malkin has had his issues, but Malkin has been chipping in while some are not on the score sheet.

 

[Ugene Magic]

of course not when we haven't locked in either top 6 line.

The top two are only not locked in due to injuries, and that doesn't mean they're not locked in. Out of Kessel, Hornqvist and Simon those top two lines are locked in.

We are not looking for a top two line winger here.

What they need is a guy who can help line 3 mesh, and without a top 2 line players help some of that bottom six help goes away. There's a few that were attached to Malkin/Kessel.

Those are facts hidden in the open.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The top two are only not locked in due to injuries, and that doesn't mean they're not locked in. Out of Kessel, Hornqvist and Simon those top two lines are locked in.

We are not looking for a top two line winger here.

What they need is a guy who can help line 3 mesh, and without a top 2 line players help some of that bottom six help goes away. There's a few that were attached to Malkin/Kessel.

Those are facts hidden in the open.

so what are the locked in top 6 lines? Mainly who is Malkin's RW?

I assume one of Horny or Kessel should be on our "locked in" 3rd line, right? So far Brassard has only played about 25% of his ice time with one of the two on his line. His most common linemate so far is ZAR.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I mean, are we really worried about Malkin when this team is healthy.
No.

Are we worried about the bottom six when we are healthy?

Yes.

Is the bottom six getting better?

Yes. Marginally to what you'd expect without a top line winger attached to it.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean, are we really worried about Malkin when this team is healthy.
No.

Are we worried about the bottom six when we are healthy?

Yes.

Is the bottom six getting better?

Yes. Marginally to what you'd expect without a top line winger attached to it.

I’m not worried about Malkin, I just think it odd to criticize the bottom six when they’ve scored five ES goals in the last 6 games and I don’t Malkin has scored more than once at ES since the start of November.

 

[Ugene Magic]

so what are the locked in top 6 lines? Mainly who is Malkin's RW?

I assume one of Horny or Kessel should be on our "locked in" 3rd line, right? So far Brassard has only played about 25% of his ice time with one of the two on his line. His most common linemate so far is ZAR.

That should seem obvious in Hornqvist or Kessel. Just because there is a choice doesn't mean a viable player isn't locked in. Same with line 1, any of the three have proven to be good there.

If line 3 doesn't have a top two wing on it, it is in shambles.

What if recent play of Kessel on Crosby's line pushes Simon down?

Most teams are doing it with one great top line, the Pens have two if you go...

Guentzel, Crosby, Kessel
Pearson, Malkin, Hornqvist

The top two lines are the least of their worries when healthy.

Brassard and company need to get it done without a star attached to them. Without one they are very vanilla. They are not expected to be top line production wise, while not costing them at the same time. The top two lines are the risk takers, and they will falter here and there.

And that's when I feel they need a top two line winger there (kessel) to push the depth. I just don't think it will be viable for the long haul.

In each scenario showed each player lacking or looking off.

Kessel with Malkin
Hornqvist with Brassard

And Sid goes by whomever he chooses.

 

[Andy99]

People do understand, don’t you, that the opposing players are keying on Geno, trying to take away his lanes and prevent him from shooting....not only because he’s good but because he’s the only damn threat on his line...things opened up for him early when Phil was there...that started faltering and now there’s no one on his line who can convert a play...
He needs a player more like Hags to forecheck like a demon and push the D back...the only one we have is Rust who’s not that player this year but if he can turn it around, I’d play him with G....playing him with both Pearson and Horny is useless

 

[Ugene Magic]

I’m not worried about Malkin, I just think it odd to criticize the bottom six when they’ve scored five ES goals in the last 6 games and I don’t Malkin has scored more than once at ES since the start of November.

The bottom six has been in question since last year. A small sample size does not take away that.

 

[Gurglesons]

The bottom six has been in question since last year. A small sample size does not take away that.

That isn’t really true.

The entire roster outside of Crosby’s line was an issue in the playoffs due to injuries. Still has been this year as well

 

[Ugene Magic]

That isn’t really true.

Then we were imagining things then, the bottom six being a mess that started with the addition of Brassard, and the eventual subtraction of players into this season and it really not getting more than marginally better.

If you have to rely on a top six winger to be on your 3rd line to be less than average to date, I'd say it is a lot true.

But you can enlighten us why it isn't true.

Usually that winger is one of the top RW's in the game.

 

[Gurglesons]

Then we were imagining things then, the bottom six being a mess that started with the addition of Brassard, and the eventual subtraction of players into this season and it really not getting more than marginally better.

If you have to rely on a top six winger to be on your 3rd line to be less than average to date, I'd say it is a lot true.

But you can enlighten us why it isn't true.

Usually that winger is one of the top RW's in the game.

Brassard put up 9 in 12 heading into the playoffs this year. He is at a 34 pt pace right now. I think you’re expecting a lot from the 3rd line if that isn’t solid production.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Brassard put up 9 in 12 heading into the playoffs this year. He is at a 34 pt pace right now. I think you’re expecting a lot from the 3rd line if that isn’t solid production.

To add some context, 42 ES points is his career best. And he obviously played a lot more, with better offensive situations, and with better players to get that.

edit: a bit more. About 100 players a year score more than 35 ES points. 50 centers (based on NHL.com positions) did it last year. It's not something you expect from 3rd line centers.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Brassard put up 9 in 12 heading into the playoffs this year. He is at a 34 pt pace right now. I think you’re expecting a lot from the 3rd line if that isn’t solid production.

Playing with Kessel, yeah, that's piss poor getting favorable matchups.

You might want to look at the game logs. Brassard was brought in to be a difference maker. I don't expect lofty numbers, but 34 is incorrect.

There is only 54 games left and he only played 19 of 28. He doesn't get the 63 in your scenario.

If he manages to stay healthy he is around 30/31 points and 11/11.5 goals for a difference maker you traded Cole, Gustavsson, 2018 1st and 2019 3rd for.

Let that sink in.

I'd expect 40 + out of him.

No different than what we routinely got from Staal, and Staal never had a top RW as his wing.

 

[Gurglesons]

Playing with Kessel, yeah, that's piss poor getting favorable matchups.

You might want to look at the game logs. Brassard was brought in to be a difference maker. I don't expect lofty numbers, but 34 is incorrect.

There is only 54 games left and he only played 19 of 28. He doesn't get the 63 in your scenario.

If he manages to stay healthy he is around 30/31 points and 11/11.5 goals for a difference maker you traded Cole, Gustavsson, 2018 1st and 2019 3rd for.

Let that sink in.

I'd expect 40 + out of him.

No different than what we routinely got from Staal, and Staal never had a top RW as his wing.

Staal was 23 when he left here and got a ten year contract at 6 mil in 2012..

Your expectations are not in line with the role he is being asked to play.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Playing with Kessel, yeah, that's piss poor getting favorable matchups.

You might want to look at the game logs. Brassard was brought in to be a difference maker. I don't expect lofty numbers, but 34 is incorrect.

There is only 54 games left and he only played 19 of 28. He doesn't get the 63 in your scenario.

If he manages to stay healthy he is around 30/31 points and 11/11.5 goals for a difference maker you traded Cole, Gustavsson, 2018 1st and 2019 3rd for.

Let that sink in.

I'd expect 40 + out of him.

No different than what we routinely got from Staal, and Staal never had a top RW as his wing.

he's barely played with Kessel this year.

Also, Staal is really freaking good.

Also also obviously he's going to score less if he gets hurt.

I'd like a bit more from Brassard, but he's been solid.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Staal was 23 when he left here and got a ten year contract at 6 mil in 2012..

Your expectations are not in line with the role he is being asked to play.

And they traded for a 5.0 center and got retention, and the cost reflects that, the expectations are right in line. Like I said, not lofty numbers or I'd said 50+.

 

[Gurglesons]

And they traded for a 5.0 center and got retention, and the cost reflects that, the expectations are right in line. Like I said, not lofty numbers or I'd said 50+.

40 ES points without top powerplay time is average # 1C production. You realize Sid usually floats in the 50 ES point range right?

Less than 30 “centers” did it last year and that isn’t even going into wingers NHL.com labels as centers.

Staal’s production was much better because first off he is a top six center on the majority of NHL teams and second he was playing as a 2C in 2011, 2012 and 2013 due to injuries to Sid and Geno.

The package you listed for Brassard as some type of “haul” is also bizarre. It was a sub 20 1st rounder, a goaltender prospect which is worth nothing, and a UFA D that got a 3rd for heavy retention on a top nine forward that is a top six forward on most teams for two years.

 

[cygnus47]

I understand what the standard is. It's still 5 months until the post season. The last 3 times they won the cup they looked like hot garbage until Feb. They just need to put themselves in a decent position standings wise and continue to get better and play harder as the season goes on. They have done it before, if you are expecting a December juggernaut ur going to be disappointed

Two of those required new coaches and fairly big trades. 2017 we played amazing in either October or November and then had major injuries and a cup hangover. We don't have either of those excuses right now. Hence why I think new coach.

 

[KIRK]

I think Pearson is likely more of a 3rd wheel himself. But we'll have to wait and see.


do we?

The 3rd line has produced pretty well lately.

Actually, we both know the jury had come back on that one . . .

 

[Ogrezilla]

Actually, we both know the jury had come back on that one . . .

I think he's kind of on the edge between 3rd wheel and go-to wing. But none of our other options complement him well enough to make it work.

 

[KIRK]

I think he's kind of on the edge between 3rd wheel and go-to wing. But none of our other options complement him well enough to make it work.

He's not go to. He was never go to in LA. He's a 3rd wheel who works well, even very well, if you have the right 2nd wheel, which I'm afraid we don't for a line with Malkin.