Playoffs and Fancy stats thus far

Classicnamesup · Apr 25, 2015

Why don't you use these stats for the actual series and not the entire regular season. It is pretty clear to me that this version of the rangers and isles are not the versions we saw in October

Ace36758 · Apr 25, 2015

Jaynki said:
Corsi and all youre ****ing super advanced stats sucks and means nothing

Very well thought-out post.

Doctyl · Apr 25, 2015

Classicnamesup said:
Why don't you use these stats for the actual series and not the entire regular season. It is pretty clear to me that this version of the rangers and isles are not the versions we saw in October

Doctyl · Apr 25, 2015

Ace36758 said:
Very well thought-out post.

That is about as much thought as all anti-stats people put into their arguments.

Sojourn · Apr 25, 2015

Dactyl said:
That is about as much thought as all anti-stats people put into their arguments.

The irony of this statement should be obvious.

You just ignorantly generalized an entire group of individuals based on what one person said. You consider that thought out?

Doctyl · Apr 25, 2015

Sojourn said:
The irony of this statement should be obvious.

You just ignorantly generalized an entire group of individuals based on what one person said. You consider that thought out?

Some of them have had intellectual debates. Most of the time though its just stuff like "**** corsi" or "zomg fancy stats!!!!"

Sojourn · Apr 25, 2015

Dactyl said:
Some of them have had intellectual debates. Most of the time though its just stuff like "**** corsi" or "zomg fancy stats!!!!"

So you're admitting you are generalizing, and not really putting much thought into the statement. Like I said, ironic.

I could just as easily say that most pro-stat people accuse the anti-stat individuals(which isn't an accurate label, by the way) of saying they just aren't intelligent enough to understand them. I'm not going to say it, because I don't believe it, but I've seen it said. So, I must be justified to say it.

groov2 · Apr 25, 2015

Dactyl said:
1) they aren't really advanced
2) yes they do mean something

They certainly do, just not as much as some posters seem to believe.

Doctyl · Apr 25, 2015

groov2 said:
They certainly do, just not as much as some posters seem to believe.

Pretty much this

Sojourn · Apr 25, 2015

groov2 said:
They certainly do, just not as much as some posters seem to believe.

Agreed. Too much extremes, on both sides.

The Mighty Duck Man · Apr 25, 2015

Sojourn said:
Interestingly enough, Anaheim was used as an example of a team regressing in the playoffs the last two seasons despite the small sample size. The 82 game season was deemed less "true", while the playoffs were seen as a more accurate representation. There seem to be a lot of contradicting arguments.

That being said, I don't think the OP is making the argument he thinks he is.

Not just that, Anaheim this year is an example of how some will show a misleading view of those stats to fit their argument. Prior to the Winnipeg series, and certainly if Winnipeg had won, Corsi would have been king, and they predicted Anaheim's fate yet again. Now that they won in convincing fashion, it's brought up how they were a top possession team post-deadline. Fascinating stuff.

SatanwasaSlovak · Apr 25, 2015

Meh, who cares? Why not enjoy the hockey instead?

The stats that matters is goal scored, and goals conceded. The game itself is to complex, there are so many factors involved that you can't describe it with a simple formula.

Sojourn · Apr 25, 2015

Gibsons Finest said:
Not just that, Anaheim this year is an example of how some will show a misleading view of those stats to fit their argument. Prior to the Winnipeg series, and certainly if Winnipeg had won, Corsi would have been king, and they predicted Anaheim's fate yet again. Now that they won in convincing fashion, it's brought up how they were a top possession team post-deadline. Fascinating stuff.

Convenient is the word I'd use.

Sojourn · Apr 25, 2015

SatanwasaSlovak said:
Meh, who cares? Why not enjoy the hockey instead?

The stats that matters is goal scored, and goals conceded. The game itself is to complex, there are so many factors involved that you can't describe it with a simple formula.

To be fair, I don't think a lot of the pro-stats crowd are trying to describe/explain it with a simple formula. Which, in my opinion, is part of the problem. There are some who are, just as there are some people who seem against all use of stats, or simply dismiss them as irrelevant. Those are just the extremes.

Stats aren't the issue. The stats just provide additional information, and can better illuminate the picture of what is taking place on the ice. What the stats don't do is the actual painting. It's all about using them properly.

Bender66 · Apr 26, 2015

Gibsons Finest said:
Not just that, Anaheim this year is an example of how some will show a misleading view of those stats to fit their argument. Prior to the Winnipeg series, and certainly if Winnipeg had won, Corsi would have been king, and they predicted Anaheim's fate yet again. Now that they won in convincing fashion, it's brought up how they were a top possession team post-deadline. Fascinating stuff.

I don't think "Fascinating" is the word I would use for the scenario you described. I will refrain from using the word I think the situation calls for, as I do not want to get infracted.

topched88 · Apr 26, 2015

groov2 said:
They certainly do, just not as much as some posters seem to believe.

This. Totally think they are relevant, but it seems like often people are referring to them as the end all be all.

oobga · Apr 26, 2015

So what happens when 2 unsustainables collide? Do you get 1 sustainable, or some kind of super-unsustainable?

The Mighty Duck Man · Apr 26, 2015

Bender66 said:
I don't think "Fascinating" is the word I would use for the scenario you described. I will refrain from using the word I think the situation calls for, as I do not want to get infracted.

I find it entirely fascinating how some can pump up these stats for their objectivity and belittle other methods for their bias, and then turn around and tell the story that fits their agenda. The mental gymnastics are something else.

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topched88 said:
This. Totally think they are relevant, but it seems like often people are referring to them as the end all be all.

i see more people saying this than people who actually fit the description

ChocolateLeclaire · Apr 26, 2015

oobga said:
So what happens when 2 unsustainables collide? Do you get 1 sustainable, or some kind of super-unsustainable?

I think the result is they collapse into a novastainable.

Lunatik · Apr 26, 2015

Dactyl said:
The stats aren't even that advanced. It's literally the +/- of shot attempts. Its the best way we have to record possession. The hate it gets is ridiculous.

I completely disagree.

The best way to record possession would be to record time of possession.

Vesa Awesaka · Apr 26, 2015

100 Third Graders said:
I completely disagree.

The best way to record possession would be to record time of possession.

I disagree shot attempt are much better at showing who has more time with the puck then actually tracking who has more time with the puck

toewsintangibles · Apr 26, 2015

Is there a way to edit the title, because Unsustainable just got a 4 goal lead! :handclap:

Raccoon Jesus · Apr 26, 2015

In every single one of these threads, people argue against a mythical "completely for" or "completely against" advanced stats crowd. I have literally yet to see someone point them out as a be all and end all, and though I've seen people dismiss them completely, I don't think even those posts mean the ideas have no place in hockey. It's just always a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of what they mean.

Vesa Awesaka · Apr 26, 2015

Heres some of ottawa's advanced stats after a new coach took over and they changed the system

Since the season is almost over...
*overall means all situations

In the 55 games under Cameron the sens are

3rd in scoring chance plus minus 7th at 5v5 in the league

8th in scoring chances against overall

12th in corsi 5v5 6th overall

17th in fenwick 5v5 11th overall

19th in shotforagainst 5v5 12th overall

8th in goals for per 60

10th in goals against per 60

15th in shooting percentage

8th in save percentage

21st in faceoff percentage

9th in defensive zone starts

10th in offensive zone starts

7th in PDO

Lots of good and a little bad. Still some things to work on like cutting down shots. The zone starts is something i think is underrated. The sens generally start in the opponents zone and rarely in their own zone. Takes a ton of pressure off the defense.

I think its fair to say montreal was the more unsustainable team going into the series

Under Paul Malean

MacLean's for those who are wondering(just a short examination)

20th in corsi all situations
23rd in scoring chance plus minus all situations
29th in shots against(2nd last to buffalo)
29th in shotforagainst plus minus all situations
5th best in save percentage all situations

9th in PDO

Playoffs and Fancy stats thus far

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