Paul Kariya. THN loved him to the point of calling him the the new best player in the NHL without him ever really being it. I mean, he had great stretches and he was among the best players for three or four years, but the evidence of him ever being the best of the best is rather flimsy.
Players whose reputations were (at some point) inflated by media (or NHLPA) narrative
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MarkusNaslund19
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Disagree, but he was derailed quickly by injuries.
Kariya in 96-97 and 97-98 (after the holdout and before the Suter cheap shot) had an argument, a legitimate argument for best player in the game.
If you only saw him post 1999 than I can see how you would think that, but he was very unfortunate and was legitimately a great player.
As to the matter at hand, how does nobody mention Jeremy Roenick. He had those great years in the early 90's in Chicago, and he had that personality, and he was an American. So there was this superstar narrative pushed, and it just wasn't there. He was a really good player, a star. But never a superstar after those two great years.
Similarly, Tkachuk was never worth his hype. But again, scored 50 goals twice as an American when they were searching for players to hype. Tkachuk was a fabulous player, but he was never as good as he was made out to be.
I first saw him at the Olympics in Lillehammer. And I said it myself he was among the best players in the league, but what exactly separated him from them? There is absolutely nothing palpable. He neither outscored nor outperformed everyone for any relevant period of time.
If you watch his highlight reel, it might be the least spectacular among his superstar peers.
He was a great skater with a great shot who benefited from the Selanne trade, and THN definitely rushed to put him on a pedestal in a manner that wasn't exactly earned.
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The Panther
Registered User
Hm, Kariya.... You know, prior to the Selanne trade, he was pacing for a 99-point season, and he ended up with 108 points. And sandwiched between 100+ point seasons, Selanne dropped to 86 in 1997-98, partly because Kariya missed most of the season. Remarkably, then, it does appear that great players benefit from playing with each other as opposed to not with each other. Crazy.
Sarcasm aside, the Canadian hockey press probably did go a little overboard with the Kariya-love circa the 1997 off-season. But then again, Kariya got less appreciation than he should have for everything he did after the summer of 2000, so I guess it's all even.
Voight
#winning
He still had Vezina finishes of 4, 4, 6, 6 in NY. That could suggest that he's a top 10 goalie, albeit in the 5-10 range.
I'm not holding it against him. And of course the benefit was mutual.
As for 97/98, Selanne had 26 points in the first 20 games, then only 7 points in the next 12 games. Then came Paul, and Selanne had 30 points in 22 games, and then 23 points in the next 19 games without Paul again.
I'm not trying to argue that he had it easier without Kariya with whom he obviously enjoyed the best streak, but other than his November slump, he was scoring at a pretty consistent rate with or without Kariya. He also played only 73 games in total, and everyone had troubles cracking the 100 point mark that year.
trentmccleary
Registered User
When are all hockey writers guaranteed to be watching the same games? ... Late in the postseason and during the Olympics.
If you play on Team Canada and have a deep postseason within a short time period, the media will hype those players incessantly and IMO, their award prospects improve greatly too.
GlitchMarner
Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Was Clark really that loved by the media and/or NHLPA?
I know certain TML fans overrate/overrated him.
The Panther
Registered User
The peak of Clark's media hype seemed to be late in 1986-87 (end of his second season). I was recently watching a summary of the 1987 Leafs - Red Wings playoff series (won by Detroit in seven), and the broadcasters -- from Detroit -- actually compare Clark to Steve Yzerman in the intro to one game. I can't recall the exact wording, but they said things like, "You can't keep a player as talented as Clark off the scoreboard forever!", and "Wendel Clark always finds a way to score", etc. They position him as Yzerman's counter-part. Now, sure in 1987 Yzerman wasn't quite legendary Yzerman yet, but still the clip kind of made me laugh...
THN loved Clark. Shared the cover of THN’s 1991-92 season preview alongside Yzerman. During the 1995 shortened year, Quebec got off to a blazing start, something like 12-2. THN credited Clark as the primary reason for the fast start, citing his leadership and toughness.
njdevils1982
Hell Toupée!!!
vadim sharifijanov
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Theokritos
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vadim sharifijanov
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that toronto/detroit series takes me back. i didn't watch it, but the first book i ever read about hockey had a chapter about it.
here's a recap from sports illustrated—
In the Norris final the Red Wings looked like dead things until they outdid the Islanders and stormed back from a 3-1 deficit to win the series. Only two teams in NHL history—the Islanders in 1975 and against Washington in the opening round of this year's playoffs, and the Maple Leafs in 1942—had overcome such a deficit.
The series turned in Detroit's favor five minutes before the warmups for Game 5 when Demers told right wing Joey Kocur that his job for the remainder of the series was to shadow Toronto's young leader, Wendel Clark. "Aww-right!" was Kocur's reaction. "I didn't want to tell him too early, or he'd have gone crazy worrying about it," said Demers. "We treated Clark like a superstar because he is one."
It was a stroke of near genius. Until then Kocur had been known as a goon. His 653 penalty minutes in his first two full NHL seasons and a right hand that had open cuts on eight knuckles attested to Kocur's proficiency as a fighter. But unbeknownst to many, he can also play hockey. In 1983-84 he scored 40 goals in the juniors for the Saskatoon Blades, while Clark, his teammate that season, had only 23. Furthermore, Kocur and Clark are cousins through marriage—"aunts marrying aunts, or something," says Kocur—and fast friends back in the farming hamlet (pop. 1,000) of Kelvington, Saskatchewan, where they have known each other since Kocur was five years old and Clark was three. Kocur's father, a welder, repairs machinery for Clark's father, a grain farmer. They, too, are best friends.
"I never had brothers," says Kocur. "Wendel has always been like a brother to me."
Clark, who is only 20 and who has scored 71 goals in his first two years in the NHL, had never been shadowed for an entire game. And make no mistake: Clark is the Toronto Maple Leafs. "He's their spark plug; he's their everything," says Kocur. Clark won Game 4 for the Leafs practically single-handedly, scoring twice and setting up the game-winner in the 3-2 overtime win that gave Toronto a three-games-to-one lead in the series. Now he was going to be hounded by his old pal and playmate. Kocur threw him completely off his game. "He's faster than I am," said Kocur. "But I'm clutching and grabbing him all the time, and it's hard to skate when someone is holding your ankles."
If it had been anyone else, Clark probably would have dropped his gloves and leveled his shadow to get himself a little playing room—in Kelvington they are not shy about using their fists. But he wouldn't fight Kocur, and as a result both Clark and the Leafs did a disappearing act. The Wings won 3-0, as goalie Glen Hanlon turned in Detroit's first playoff shutout in 21 years. When an insistent radio reporter asked Clark three times why he wouldn't fight Kocur, Clark finally glowered at the man with the mike and snarled, "Do you want me to fight you?"
Demers stuck with the strategy in Game 6, and the Wings came away with a tight-checking 4-2 victory. The hockey was dreadful—neither team had any sort of transition game nor, for that matter, a .500 record in the regular season—but the teams were at least well matched. And the game-within-a-game was worth the price of admission, as Clark and Kocur often dallied two zones behind the puck, circling like dancers, while play labored on without them, four-on-four. Clark did score once, but it was after a penalty, while Kocur was on the bench. "I'm glad Joey got the opportunity to show he can play like that in this league," said Clark. "There aren't too many guys who can be the toughest guy in the league and play a regular shift."
In Game 7, Kocur again shut down Clark, and Hanlon did the same to the rest of the Maple Leafs as the Red Wings beat Toronto 3-0. When the teams were at even strength in the final three games, Detroit outscored Toronto 10-0. Adam Oates, who had three goals and three assists in the series and was the Red Wings' most effective offensive player, opened the scoring in Game 7 by stuffing his own rebound past goalie Ken Wregget at 2:51 of the first period. Steve Yzerman and Darren Veitch added second-period goals. Hanlon, meanwhile, was outstanding as he turned aside 30 shots.
After the game, Demers and Brophy, who had been antagonists all season, embraced each other near the Maple Leaf bench. "I congratulated him and wished them luck against Edmonton," Brophy said. "His team played great hockey for him when they got it going."
All the usually loquacious Demers could say was, "The miracle that couldn't happen, happened."
in 1987, you could see how wendel was thought of as a future superstar. 34 goals in 66 games as a rookie right out of the draft, 37 goals in his second year. led the leafs with 5 points in the first round 1 vs 4 upset of the blues, then had 5 points in the first four games of the second round series, including both regulation goals and an assist on the OT winner in game four, to go up 3-1 on the wings before demers, that year's jack adams winner, switches cousin kocur on him and holds him to one goal the rest of the way. up to game 4 of the toronto series, i probably also would be wondering if this 20 year old kid was every bit as good as yzerman (who had never won a playoff round before that year and had been stuck at the same point total for four years).
here's a recap from sports illustrated—
In the Norris final the Red Wings looked like dead things until they outdid the Islanders and stormed back from a 3-1 deficit to win the series. Only two teams in NHL history—the Islanders in 1975 and against Washington in the opening round of this year's playoffs, and the Maple Leafs in 1942—had overcome such a deficit.
The series turned in Detroit's favor five minutes before the warmups for Game 5 when Demers told right wing Joey Kocur that his job for the remainder of the series was to shadow Toronto's young leader, Wendel Clark. "Aww-right!" was Kocur's reaction. "I didn't want to tell him too early, or he'd have gone crazy worrying about it," said Demers. "We treated Clark like a superstar because he is one."
It was a stroke of near genius. Until then Kocur had been known as a goon. His 653 penalty minutes in his first two full NHL seasons and a right hand that had open cuts on eight knuckles attested to Kocur's proficiency as a fighter. But unbeknownst to many, he can also play hockey. In 1983-84 he scored 40 goals in the juniors for the Saskatoon Blades, while Clark, his teammate that season, had only 23. Furthermore, Kocur and Clark are cousins through marriage—"aunts marrying aunts, or something," says Kocur—and fast friends back in the farming hamlet (pop. 1,000) of Kelvington, Saskatchewan, where they have known each other since Kocur was five years old and Clark was three. Kocur's father, a welder, repairs machinery for Clark's father, a grain farmer. They, too, are best friends.
"I never had brothers," says Kocur. "Wendel has always been like a brother to me."
Clark, who is only 20 and who has scored 71 goals in his first two years in the NHL, had never been shadowed for an entire game. And make no mistake: Clark is the Toronto Maple Leafs. "He's their spark plug; he's their everything," says Kocur. Clark won Game 4 for the Leafs practically single-handedly, scoring twice and setting up the game-winner in the 3-2 overtime win that gave Toronto a three-games-to-one lead in the series. Now he was going to be hounded by his old pal and playmate. Kocur threw him completely off his game. "He's faster than I am," said Kocur. "But I'm clutching and grabbing him all the time, and it's hard to skate when someone is holding your ankles."
If it had been anyone else, Clark probably would have dropped his gloves and leveled his shadow to get himself a little playing room—in Kelvington they are not shy about using their fists. But he wouldn't fight Kocur, and as a result both Clark and the Leafs did a disappearing act. The Wings won 3-0, as goalie Glen Hanlon turned in Detroit's first playoff shutout in 21 years. When an insistent radio reporter asked Clark three times why he wouldn't fight Kocur, Clark finally glowered at the man with the mike and snarled, "Do you want me to fight you?"
Demers stuck with the strategy in Game 6, and the Wings came away with a tight-checking 4-2 victory. The hockey was dreadful—neither team had any sort of transition game nor, for that matter, a .500 record in the regular season—but the teams were at least well matched. And the game-within-a-game was worth the price of admission, as Clark and Kocur often dallied two zones behind the puck, circling like dancers, while play labored on without them, four-on-four. Clark did score once, but it was after a penalty, while Kocur was on the bench. "I'm glad Joey got the opportunity to show he can play like that in this league," said Clark. "There aren't too many guys who can be the toughest guy in the league and play a regular shift."
In Game 7, Kocur again shut down Clark, and Hanlon did the same to the rest of the Maple Leafs as the Red Wings beat Toronto 3-0. When the teams were at even strength in the final three games, Detroit outscored Toronto 10-0. Adam Oates, who had three goals and three assists in the series and was the Red Wings' most effective offensive player, opened the scoring in Game 7 by stuffing his own rebound past goalie Ken Wregget at 2:51 of the first period. Steve Yzerman and Darren Veitch added second-period goals. Hanlon, meanwhile, was outstanding as he turned aside 30 shots.
After the game, Demers and Brophy, who had been antagonists all season, embraced each other near the Maple Leaf bench. "I congratulated him and wished them luck against Edmonton," Brophy said. "His team played great hockey for him when they got it going."
All the usually loquacious Demers could say was, "The miracle that couldn't happen, happened."
in 1987, you could see how wendel was thought of as a future superstar. 34 goals in 66 games as a rookie right out of the draft, 37 goals in his second year. led the leafs with 5 points in the first round 1 vs 4 upset of the blues, then had 5 points in the first four games of the second round series, including both regulation goals and an assist on the OT winner in game four, to go up 3-1 on the wings before demers, that year's jack adams winner, switches cousin kocur on him and holds him to one goal the rest of the way. up to game 4 of the toronto series, i probably also would be wondering if this 20 year old kid was every bit as good as yzerman (who had never won a playoff round before that year and had been stuck at the same point total for four years).
trentmccleary
Registered User
I don't think it's surprising. He played for slightly over a decade before becoming an elite defenseman.
He had 5x PPG seasons. 7x 70 point seasons. And he almost never missed games.
PPG seasons
2002 in which his team actively spent the last 1/3 of the season trying to win him the Art Ross & Rocket.
2007 & 2008 played with Tanguay or Huselius at all times
2009 played with Cammalleri
2011 played with Tanguay
That means that he played with wingers who were roughly equivalent producers to Ray Whitney for 4 of his 5 best seasons. No to mention the fact that Langkow and Jokinen were pretty solid offensive centers before they ever met Iginla (as opposed to Radek Bonk turning into Cinderella the moment he's paired with Hossa and back to a pumpkin the second they're separated). Also remember that Phaneuf was one of the highest scoring d-men in the league post-lockout (11th in pts from 2005-2010).
Kariya produced before and after his injuries. His stats mostly make sense in terms of with Selanne or without Selanne, not before or after injuries. Teemu was a fantastic player, so that's no slight to Kariya to expect him to produce the same with Sykora and old Oates.
Every player winds up in a great situation at some point in their careers that makes it easier to produce and their offense spikes.
Here is a comparison between Tkachuk and Iginla. The seasons in which Tkachuk played before Iginla entered the league have been removed from the chart, but Iginla's entire career was entered onto the chart.
This counts how many times that each player his certain GPG or PPG benchmarks over an entire season.
| GPG | JI | KT | PPG | JI | KT |
| 0.60 | 2 | 1 | 1.00 | 5 | 4 |
| 0.50 | 3 | 4 | 0.90 | 2 | 3 |
| 0.40 | 4 | 3 | 0.85 | 1 | 2 |
... and that was with these 3 seasons removed from Tkachuk's totals:
| Year | GP | G | A | Pts | GPG | PPG |
| 1994 | 84 | 41 | 40 | 81 | 0.49 | 0.96 |
| 1995 | 48 | 22 | 29 | 51 | 0.46 | 1.06 |
| 1996 | 76 | 50 | 48 | 98 | 0.66 | 1.29 |
MarkusNaslund19
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Except that I'm not talking about his stats. I'm speaking as someone who watched him a bunch of times over the duration of his career and noticed the difference in his quality of play.
vadim sharifijanov
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you don't think it's surprising that niedermayer spots rafalski six seasons and ultimately ends up with 37 more playoff games than him and rafalski still has more points? until i randomly came across that, i would never in a million years have guessed.
Big Phil
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I think in the summer of 1997 there was this sense that there would be a new best player in the NHL that would stand out now that Mario was gone. Lindros was always the most popular choice and the most obvious one I thought. I think Jagr was never out of that mix either and Kariya was the other name that popped up. Look, he had an excellent 1997 season. Finished 2nd in Hart voting and at the time was considered by many to be more dynamic than his other famous linemate at the time. I know I thought the same thing too, I felt that 1997-'98 was going to be the year that showed Kariya was the best player in the NHL.
Then he held out like a wuss, came back, got hurt by Suter and while he still had a good year in 1999 and other ones on a lesser level he was never the same explosive talent.
Jagr took this mantle and held onto it for a few years.
Big Phil
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I have to say, this thread screams Scott Niedermayer. The media loved him to death. He could do no wrong. I remember Pierre McGuire commenting after his supposed retirement in 2007 that he was the 7th best defenseman of all-time. He even had some sort of list on TSN. I can't remember who was ahead of him, but I remember the likes of Robinson, Kelly, Chelios, Coffey, etc. being behind him. That was insane. I think he completely left Shore off the list too. It was just awful and just a way of pumping the tires of a guy who really only had three elite seasons in his career and spent most of it being that defenseman who never displayed his talent.
Honestly, in New Jersey it was Stevens well before Niedermayer. Anyone that remembers those Devils teams won't even bother to argue that. In Anaheim give me Pronger over him anyday of the week. There are precious few times, maybe twice in his entire career, where I thought he was the best defenseman on his team. 2004 and 2006. Never mind among the best of all-time.
There was a Leetch vs. Niedermayer poll a ways back and while I will agree Leetch had a bizarre career curve where he didn't have great years in his 30s the fact that Niedermayer even had votes in his favour shows you a thing or two.
Honestly, in New Jersey it was Stevens well before Niedermayer. Anyone that remembers those Devils teams won't even bother to argue that. In Anaheim give me Pronger over him anyday of the week. There are precious few times, maybe twice in his entire career, where I thought he was the best defenseman on his team. 2004 and 2006. Never mind among the best of all-time.
There was a Leetch vs. Niedermayer poll a ways back and while I will agree Leetch had a bizarre career curve where he didn't have great years in his 30s the fact that Niedermayer even had votes in his favour shows you a thing or two.
Fixxer
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As they say, Lindros lived by the sword and died by the sword. At least he tried to make things ok with the Francophone media.
Fixxer
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The Norris often goes to the most productive defenseman and young Phaneuf scored close to 20 goals his first 3 seasons, + the big hits. Later on, it decreased slowly but surely.
CokenoPepsi
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Scott Neidermayer...it got real bad, I've spent some time in BC and it is common to hear people put him in the top 5 of all time, most of the Canadian media from what I have seen only have him in the top 10...it makes me sad.
Toews is the newer version of him but he plays for the team I like so it doesn't bother me as much lol...but he has been pretty overrated and a clear step down from the likes of Kane and Keith
Toews is the newer version of him but he plays for the team I like so it doesn't bother me as much lol...but he has been pretty overrated and a clear step down from the likes of Kane and Keith
Yeah, there wasn't one obvious choice, though I think Andy McDonald or Samuel Pahlsson should have won it. McDonald scored 10 goals in 21 games, 5 of which came in the final series. The checking line, with Pahlsson leading the way, shut all opponents top lines down and even outscored them. Pahlsson had 12 points in 21 games, scored the lone goal in game 2 of the Stanley Cup finals on a solo effort, and ended up being the runner up for the Selke trophy that year.
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Ken Dryden, ok, I missed out on the 71 playoffs, and the first year I watched NHL, was 73/74 when he retired for one year. All I heard about was Dryden, especially when he returned. Was never convinced he was as great as rated, especially after the year off. I suspect he would have looked much more ordinary in front of a another team that wasn't as talented and strong defensively in front as the Habs were during their late 70's run. I don't dispute that he was good, especially for the standards in the 70's, but I still don't consider him in any regard close to how so many seem to.
Maybe just me....................................
Maybe just me....................................
DannyGallivan
Your world frightens and confuses me
I agree 100 per cent... and the Habs were my team during my childhood in the 70's.
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