Players that should have Won the Conn Smythe?

[solidmotion]

I agree that Crosby deserved the 2017 Conn Smythe.

But here's my problem with Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe (which, as we know, he won by the narrowest of margins)...

There are certain years where one player, on the winning team, clearly stands out (e.g., 1986, 1991, etc). There are other years -- much more rare -- where one guy on the losing team stands out (e.g., 2003). Neither of those applied to 2016.

So, in any year (like 2016) when the voting is going to be split between three or four or five players, the priority taken should be like this:
-- Was there one player only on the losing team who stood way out? If yes, he should probably win the Conn Smythe (e.g., Hextall in 1987 probably deserved it more than Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Kurri, or Fuhr)

However, that also didn't apply in 2016, so then you go to the next priority:
-- Of the three or whatever players on the winning team that must split votes, who performed the best in the Finals?
And then there's your Conn Smythe winner.

So, of the Pens' two or three top players in the 2016 Finals, did Crosby perform the best? I am gonna say 'no'.

But it's an imperfect science.

i think you're right but haven't followed the logic far enough.

if the pens had had a truly standout player in the finals, someone who obviously dominated, then i think that player would have won the smythe—but that player didn't exist. maybe there was a first-among-equals situation, and maybe that player was crosby, maybe it was murray, etc. but that isn't what decided it.

i think it's at that point that the tiebreaker goes to narrative. much like niedermayer in 2007. if there is that little daylight between all the top players, and nobody on the losing team deserves it, give it to the captain.

probably there would have been fewer complaints if it had gone to murray but crosby's a decent choice given that logic.

 

[streitz]

Smythe's I'd change during years I paid enough attention to the playoffs. The older ones are harder because I was a kid, probably by the mid/late 80's I understood the game enough.


84- Messier agree
85- Gretzky agree
86- Roy agree
87- Hextall- I'd change to Gretzky
88 Gretzky- agree
89- chopper - agree
90- Ranford - agree but Messier or Simpson could have taken it
91- Lemieux- agree
92- Lemieux x2, agree
93- Roy- agree
94- Leetch- Agree but Messier could have taken this one too
95- Lemieux - Would have given to Richer
96- Sakic- agree
97- Vernon- Would have given to Fedorov
98- Yzerman - Agree
99- Nieuwendyk- would have given to Modano
00- Stevens- Agree
01- Roy- Would have given to Sakic
02- Lidstrom- Would have given to Yzerman but not a bad choice.
03- Giguere- Agree
04- Richards- Agree
06- Ward- Would have given to Brind'Amour. Staal would have been my 2nd choice.
07- Neidermeyer- Would have given to Pronger, suspension or no.
08- Zetterberg- Agree
09- Malkin- Agree
14- Williams- Would have given to Kopitar


I can't recall why I tuned in, in 2014. In 2011 I only watched a few games in the final but Bergeron impressed me more then Thomas. Only watched bits/pieces during the 16/17 Crosby runs but he did impress me, can't say if he deserves the Smythe or not though.

 

[Giotrapani91]

Smythe's I'd change during years I paid enough attention to the playoffs. The older ones are harder because I was a kid, probably by the mid/late 80's I understood the game enough.


84- Messier agree
85- Gretzky agree
86- Roy agree
87- Hextall- I'd change to Gretzky
88 Gretzky- agree
89- chopper - agree
90- Ranford - agree but Messier or Simpson could have taken it
91- Lemieux- agree
92- Lemieux x2, agree
93- Roy- agree
94- Leetch- Agree but Messier could have taken this one too
95- Lemieux - Would have given to Richer
96- Sakic- agree
97- Vernon- Would have given to Fedorov
98- Yzerman - Agree
99- Nieuwendyk- would have given to Modano
00- Stevens- Agree
01- Roy- Would have given to Sakic
02- Lidstrom- Would have given to Yzerman but not a bad choice.
03- Giguere- Agree
04- Richards- Agree
06- Ward- Would have given to Brind'Amour. Staal would have been my 2nd choice.
07- Neidermeyer- Would have given to Pronger, suspension or no.
08- Zetterberg- Agree
09- Malkin- Agree
14- Williams- Would have given to Kopitar


I can't recall why I tuned in, in 2014. In 2011 I only watched a few games in the final but Bergeron impressed me more then Thomas. Only watched bits/pieces during the 16/17 Crosby runs but he did impress me, can't say if he deserves the Smythe or not though.

Claude Lemieux's conn smythe I would've given to brodeur before richer my top 3 that year were brodeur, broten, then richer. Lemieux would prolly be 5th in line if our John Maclean ahead of Claude Lemieux. And 2006 you could make an arguement for Cory stillman. And 1994 don't forget how good mike richter was. Scott Stevens I would've given his to brodeur. I'd give 1990 to messier, and 1984 to Gretzky.

 

[The Panther]

Thing about Messier in 1990 is that he didn't produce much in the Finals, except in game four (in which he was no better than Anderson and Simpson). Whereas Ranford was superb throughout the entire Finals.

I really go for the performer who got it done in the Finals.

 

[barbu]

1990 Tikkanen
1997 Fedorov
1999 Modano

 

[Big Phil]

I agree that Crosby deserved the 2017 Conn Smythe.

But here's my problem with Crosby's 2016 Conn Smythe (which, as we know, he won by the narrowest of margins)...

There are certain years where one player, on the winning team, clearly stands out (e.g., 1986, 1991, etc). There are other years -- much more rare -- where one guy on the losing team stands out (e.g., 2003). Neither of those applied to 2016.

So, in any year (like 2016) when the voting is going to be split between three or four or five players, the priority taken should be like this:
-- Was there one player only on the losing team who stood way out? If yes, he should probably win the Conn Smythe (e.g., Hextall in 1987 probably deserved it more than Gretzky, Messier, Anderson, Kurri, or Fuhr)

However, that also didn't apply in 2016, so then you go to the next priority:
-- Of the three or whatever players on the winning team that must split votes, who performed the best in the Finals?
And then there's your Conn Smythe winner.

So, of the Pens' two or three top players in the 2016 Finals, did Crosby perform the best? I am gonna say 'no'.

But it's an imperfect science.

I guess Logan Couture comes pretty close to "standing out" in 2016 on the Sharks. He had 30 points, but maybe you can argue he doesn't even win it if the Sharks win. Martin Jones - if he could have figured a way to stop the Pens offense - was considered to be the choice wasn't he? Brent Burns I remember being among the choices too for the Sharks.

I think with the Pens their three Cups look a lot like this. 2009 they relied heavily on Crosby and Malkin. I think there was better depth on that team than people remember though, as Fleury stepped up huge among others, but truth be told those two were called the "two headed monster" for a reason that spring. 2016 was more of a "score by committee" thing. Crosby and Malkin scored less and didn't play bad but there was some good secondary support that year. 2017 it went back to Crosby and Malkin being the big cogs to win although definitely better supporting cast than 2009.

A lot about Crosby in 2016 wasn't showing up on the scoresheet either. Stuff such as his instructions prior to the faceoff of the overtime winner in Game 2 comes to mind as something people were noticing a lot. Stuff like that probably helped him win.

 

[WingsFan95]

Because the Smythe is for Playoff MVP, I think the losing team's guy makes more sense than people are willing to admit.

2016-Brent Burns, he stood out because as a defenseman and +11 he really was pound for pound ahead of any other guy on his team or in the playoffs. Crosby was quite possibly the worst Smythe recipient.

2013-Krejci had a good enough margin on the rest of the team but Rask would have been my #2. The Hawks were just a better team overall.

2006-Pronger was far and away the best skater those playoffs. Wasn't too impressed by Ward and frankly with the voting it would make sense he would split with his team more than Pronger.


As for keeping it with the winning team:

1999-Belfour, the 1.67 GAA is insane when you consider the teams he faced. Modano for skaters.

1996-Roy, it's easy to get caught up in Sakic clearly being the offensive leader on the team but fact is Patrick Roy was the reason they won it all. No question in my mind.

1981-Bossy, no Goring argument makes any sense really. I assume it was a lot of vote splitting that got Goring the nod but Bossy was sufficiently ahead of everyone.

 

[Eisen]

Niedermayer in 2003.
Giguere in 2007.

Funny how that works.

That aside, I would say Fedorov in 1997 was the biggest snub. I really don't understand how Vernon won it. Did the voters just give it to the goalie by default because the Wings were such a great team? Was there still lingering resentment against Russian players?

Also, Brindamour should have gotten it in 2006. He was the man who made that Canes team work. Staal would have been a better pick than Ward too. Seems like the main reason they gave it to Ward was that Gerber was so bad.

Rob Niedermayer?

Edit: I just realized I waited 11 years to make that joke. And I probably wasn't even the first.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Claude Lemieux's conn smythe I would've given to brodeur before richer my top 3 that year were brodeur, broten, then richer. Lemieux would prolly be 5th in line if our John Maclean ahead of Claude Lemieux. And 2006 you could make an arguement for Cory stillman. And 1994 don't forget how good mike richter was. Scott Stevens I would've given his to brodeur. I'd give 1990 to messier, and 1984 to Gretzky.

If anyone other than Lemieux deserved the 1995 Conn Smythe, it was Scott Stevens. I thought it was pretty clearly a two man race, with Brodeur a distant third.

And you'd seriously give the 2000 Conn Smythe to Brodeur? I'm not even sure Marty was top 5 in order of importance that year. He was definitely behind Stevens, Arnott, and Elias at minimum.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

i thought holtby was their most important guy, personally. any time there is strong support for four different guys, i don't think you can argue that one of the four won it.

The thing is, there wasn't strong support for 4 guys among the actual Conn Smythe voters. Kuznetsov and Ovechkin received every 1st and 2nd place vote between them. Holtby did get more 3rd place votes than anyone else.

(I hope they continue releasing full Conn Smythe voting in the future).

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

The thing is, there wasn't strong support for 4 guys among the actual Conn Smythe voters. Kuznetsov and Ovechkin received every 1st and 2nd place vote between them. Holtby did get more 3rd place votes than anyone else.

(I hope they continue releasing full Conn Smythe voting in the future).

me too. it's really illuminating. i also wish we knew a little more exactly how (and when) the voting works, and whether there are protocols or whether they just play it by ear depending on how the game/series is going. like, if someone scores in game 7 OT, do they all vote then and there, or do they all re-vote? i've always heard that they start balloting in the middle of the third if the cup is in the building but who knows really.

on that wavelength, we talk about about the pearson/lindsay vs the hart trophy and how the players' MVP means less because they vote early and so they don't get to take into account the full totality of the season. last week on the radio, ray ferraro mentioned that he had already turned in his ballot before the last game. basically, he said, nothing that happens in the last game changes my ballot and anyway it's already gone (specifically, he meant the vancouver/st louis game that was a calder showdown between pettersson vs binnington). food for thought when we look back at those close end of season statistical races.

for example, lindros scored his last point in 1995 on april 28. jagr scored two points on the 30th, two more on the 2nd, and his last point on the 3rd. could voters getting their ballots in early have made a difference?

and as of march 28, 2001, sakic was still ahead of jagr in the scoring race with a week to go and one less game in hand. i don't know how early you can get a ballot off, but... though in 2001 the hypothetical scenario might have pushed the hart to mario, not jagr.

 

[Giotrapani91]

If anyone other than Lemieux deserved the 1995 Conn Smythe, it was Scott Stevens. I thought it was pretty clearly a two man race, with Brodeur a distant third.

And you'd seriously give the 2000 Conn Smythe to Brodeur? I'm not even sure Marty was top 5 in order of importance that year. He was definitely behind Stevens, Arnott, and Elias at minimum.

I would say behind arnott he was a close second to Stevens.

 

[Giotrapani91]

If anyone other than Lemieux deserved the 1995 Conn Smythe, it was Scott Stevens. I thought it was pretty clearly a two man race, with Brodeur a distant third.

And you'd seriously give the 2000 Conn Smythe to Brodeur? I'm not even sure Marty was top 5 in order of importance that year. He was definitely behind Stevens, Arnott, and Elias at minimum.

Stevens only had 1 goal and 7 assists that playoff his numbers in 2000 were actually better. 2003 not so much niedermayer had better numbers, it was between giggy, niedermayer, langenbrunner, & friesen.

 

[Giotrapani91]

Because the Smythe is for Playoff MVP, I think the losing team's guy makes more sense than people are willing to admit.

2016-Brent Burns, he stood out because as a defenseman and +11 he really was pound for pound ahead of any other guy on his team or in the playoffs. Crosby was quite possibly the worst Smythe recipient.

2013-Krejci had a good enough margin on the rest of the team but Rask would have been my #2. The Hawks were just a better team overall.

2006-Pronger was far and away the best skater those playoffs. Wasn't too impressed by Ward and frankly with the voting it would make sense he would split with his team more than Pronger.


As for keeping it with the winning team:

1999-Belfour, the 1.67 GAA is insane when you consider the teams he faced. Modano for skaters.

1996-Roy, it's easy to get caught up in Sakic clearly being the offensive leader on the team but fact is Patrick Roy was the reason they won it all. No question in my mind.

1981-Bossy, no Goring argument makes any sense really. I assume it was a lot of vote splitting that got Goring the nod but Bossy was sufficiently ahead of everyone.

81 should've gone to potvin.

 

[Giotrapani91]

Thing about Messier in 1990 is that he didn't produce much in the Finals, except in game four (in which he was no better than Anderson and Simpson). Whereas Ranford was superb throughout the entire Finals.

I really go for the performer who got it done in the Finals.

Someone mentioned that Simpson was pretty good in the finals 4 goals 4 assists 8 points.

 

[The Panther]

Someone mentioned that Simpson was pretty good in the finals 4 goals 4 assists 8 points.

I was just finishing a long post that took me 15 minutes to prepare, with detailed stats from the four rounds of Edmonton's 1990 playoffs -- which was quite interesting -- and then my computer ate it while I was on the final sentence.

Anyway, yes, Simpson was good. 8 points in 5 games in the Finals, and +7. I mean, that's crazy good.

 

[Giotrapani91]

If anyone other than Lemieux deserved the 1995 Conn Smythe, it was Scott Stevens. I thought it was pretty clearly a two man race, with Brodeur a distant third.

And you'd seriously give the 2000 Conn Smythe to Brodeur? I'm not even sure Marty was top 5 in order of importance that year. He was definitely behind Stevens, Arnott, and Elias at minimum.

Who would've won it if Dallas won it wouldn't be Brett hull only cuz the media didn't care for him and I personally think the voters would've went for modano.

 

[JackSlater]

Who would've won it if Dallas won it wouldn't be Brett hull only cuz the media didn't care for him and I personally think the voters would've went for modano.

If nothing changes other than say, Carbonneau scores the overtime goal unassisted, then I think Modano wins. Hull certainly has a case and Belfour does as well, but Modano would have been deserving and would likely be the easiest one for the media to vote for.

 

[Giotrapani91]

Who would've won it in 86 and 04 had Calgary won my votes lean toward Joey Mullen in 86, and Craig conroy in 2004. Idk who would've won it for the bruins in 88 and 90. Chelios would've won it in 1992 had the hawks won. Linden would've won it had the Canucks won in 1994. 1991 would've went to Jon Casey had the north stars won, 89 would've went not to Patrick Roy but to either Chelios or Bobby smith.

 

[Giotrapani91]

84 isles are a tough team to pick from id go with gillies, 85 flyers would be Pelle Lindbergh, 82 Canucks would've been Richard brodeur, 81 north stars would've been cicarelli, 80 flyers idk who was good for them I'll just go on a note and say either barber or peeters. 83 would've been Gretzky. 97 would've been Lindros, 96 would go to beezer, 95 imo would go to fedorov or Paul Coffey. 93 would go to Gretzky, 98 would go to either Adam Oates, or Joey Juneau. And 1999 would've went to hasek.

 

[Giotrapani91]

As for the 2000s it would've gone to modano in 2000 had Dallas won, 2001 would've went to prolly Elias, 2002 would've went to Ronnie Francis, 2003 would've gone to gigeure either way, 2004 would've went to either iginla or conroy. 2006 would've gone to pronger, 2007 would've went to alfredsson, 2008 would've went to Crosby, 2009 would've went to either osgood or cleary. 2010 would've gone to briere, 2011 would've went to luongo, 2012 goes to brodeur, 2013 Bergeron, 2014 king henrik, 2015 Tyler Johnson, 2016 Brent burns, 2017 rinne, and 2018 would've went to fleury.

 

[JackSlater]

2002 would've went to Ronnie Francis,

I am very confident that 2002 was a slam dunk for Irbe.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I am very confident that 2002 was a slam dunk for Irbe.

I could see the voters holding the Kevin Weekes series against him and going with the more popular Francis who was one of very few skaters who had a little Hart buzz that year.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I could see the voters holding the Kevin Weekes series against him and going with the more popular Francis who was one of very few skaters who had a little Hart buzz that year.

i don’t doubt that there would be voters going with francis for sentimentality, but i think irbe pretty easily prevails anyway. he was so incredibly good in the toronto series, and it was so high profile. the avs/wings series had the two best goalies of all time, six hall of fame centers, and six other hall of famers and irbe was the star of the third round.

 

[quoipourquoi]

i don’t doubt that there would be voters going with francis for sentimentality, but i think irbe pretty easily prevails anyway. he was so incredibly good in the toronto series, and it was so high profile. the avs/wings series had the two best goalies of all time, six hall of fame centers, and six other hall of famers and irbe was the star of the third round.

I just think 408 minutes on the bench for a goaltender is going to be a lot to overcome when they’re voting. I think Billy Smith was the only other Conn Smythe winner to see his backup take more than two decisions, but Melanson only played 19.6% of the Islanders’ minutes; Weekes played 27.5% of the Hurricanes’ minutes.

For example, Giguere may have lost a second Conn Smythe to a weakish Niedermayer run when Bryzgalov took 20.0% of the Ducks’ minutes in 2007. And that was with him taking over the net; Irbe lost the job by getting pulled in back-to-back games against New Jersey and didn’t regain it until the next round.