Players and their wives!

[mr gib]

Can anyone please try to convince me why players wanting to be dealt because their wives want to be closer to family and friends shouldn't be banned for the term of their contracts?

I can understand being a UFA but....

I honestly feel terrible for all Edmonton fans. Getting someone with a superstar status like Pronger, signing him to a multi year deal only to have him want OUT is just ridiculous.

I lost total respect for the guy! He should have to sit out for the remainder of his contract. See how his wife likes that...

wait till you find out what really happened -

 

[Gord]

wait till you find out what really happened -

too bad most of us won't but we'll still have to live with people on hf boards teasing us with their nudge nudge, if only you know what I know stuff.

 

[Timmy]

wait till you find out what really happened -

Well, it's not something that people really want to broadcast...

 

[mr gib]

Well, it's not something that people really want to broadcast...

that's exactly right - or the first internet libel suit - if you search some of the blogs by typing in the obvious catch works next to his name you'll get the idea - i'm not saying it -

 

[canucks666]

Playing in the NHL is a job.

Period.


Wait wait wait. Let me say the important part one more time.


PERIOD


Work is important, certainly - to anyone, but family ALWAYS takes priority. Would you quit your job or move to another city for your family? Some people might not but most people would.


Pronger doesn't "owe" Edmonton or it's fans ANYTHING. He's doing a job and getting paid for it. Part of that job is to be in the media and interact with fans, yes. But in terms of WHERE he does that job is ultimately up to him, he's earned that right no different than ANY professional in ANY field. If you're a senior software developer and you are in high demand, you can choose what city you want to live in and choose to quit your job for a better fit if you want. And you'd do it for your family. Hockey is no different.

 

[Rudolf Yaber]

Playing in the NHL is a job.

Period.


Wait wait wait. Let me say the important part one more time.


PERIOD


Work is important, certainly - to anyone, but family ALWAYS takes priority. Would you quit your job or move to another city for your family? Some people might not but most people would.


Pronger doesn't "owe" Edmonton or it's fans ANYTHING. He's doing a job and getting paid for it. Part of that job is to be in the media and interact with fans, yes. But in terms of WHERE he does that job is ultimately up to him, he's earned that right no different than ANY professional in ANY field. If you're a senior software developer and you are in high demand, you can choose what city you want to live in and choose to quit your job for a better fit if you want. And you'd do it for your family. Hockey is no different.

 

[kdb209]

Playing in the NHL is a job.

Period.


Wait wait wait. Let me say the important part one more time.


PERIOD


Work is important, certainly - to anyone, but family ALWAYS takes priority. Would you quit your job or move to another city for your family? Some people might not but most people would.


Pronger doesn't "owe" Edmonton or it's fans ANYTHING. He's doing a job and getting paid for it. Part of that job is to be in the media and interact with fans, yes. But in terms of WHERE he does that job is ultimately up to him, he's earned that right no different than ANY professional in ANY field. If you're a senior software developer and you are in high demand, you can choose what city you want to live in and choose to quit your job for a better fit if you want. And you'd do it for your family. Hockey is no different.

Actually Pronger is NOT like "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He cannot "choose what city" he wants to live in - at least not for another 4 years.

And yes, Pronger does owe the Edmonton Oilers (but not the fans) something - four more years on a signed contract.

He signed a 5 year contract with Edmonton in August. Edmonton is under no obligation whatsoever to trade him, or to trade him wherever he wants to go. Now it may be in Edmonton's best interest to trade him, rather than keep a disgruntled player, or risk a Yashin or TO-like holdout.

Yes Pronger is perfectly free to quit hockey - there is no way to force specific performance of the contract. Edmonton cannot force him to play against his will, but they can and will say who he has contractual obligations to if and when he ever plays in the NHL again.

If that kind of freedom and flexibility is important to a player, especially UFA eligible ones, then he should only sign 1 yr deals. You can have freedom or you can have the long term security of a multi year deal - you cannot have both.

Also, note that an NHL player is not like you or I or that mythical "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He (or the NHLPA on his behalf) has negotiated away alot of the freedoms you and I take for granted, by agreeing to such restrictive practices as the draft and restricted free agency.

The NHL is not a free labor market by any stretch of the imagination, but it is the market in which the player has chosen to sell his services.

 

[GSC2k2*]

Actually Pronger is NOT like "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He cannot "choose what city" he wants to live in - at least not for another 4 years.

And yes, Pronger does owe the Edmonton Oilers (but not the fans) something - four more years on a signed contract.

He signed a 5 year contract with Edmonton in August. Edmonton is under no obligation whatsoever to trade him, or to trade him wherever he wants to go. Now it may be in Edmonton's best interest to trade him, rather than keep a disgruntled player, or risk a Yashin or TO-like holdout.

Yes Pronger is perfectly free to quit hockey - there is no way to force specific performance of the contract. Edmonton cannot force him to play against his will, but they can and will say who he has contractual obligations to if and when he ever plays in the NHL again.

If that kind of freedom and flexibility is important to a player, especially UFA eligible ones, then he should only sign 1 yr deals. You can have freedom or you can have the long term security of a multi year deal - you cannot have both.

Also, note that an NHL player is not like you or I or that mythical "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He (or the NHLPA on his behalf) has negotiated away alot of the freedoms you and I take for granted, by agreeing to such restrictive practices as the draft and restricted free agency.

The NHL is not a free labor market by any stretch of the imagination, but it is the market in which the player has chosen to sell his services.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. A thousand thank yous would not be enough.

People with their new-age spewing who want to appear all sensitive and stuff can quite frankly cram it, as far as I am concerned. I would be willing to bet not a single one of them has a talent worth remarking upon, much less something for which they could demand serious dollars. Accordingly, they can feel free to say what they have in this thread while comfortable in the knowledge that they would never be called on to back it up.

And, incidentally, I have a family that I would take a bullet in the head for. I would quit my job (which is pretty remunerative) for them in a heartbeat. As such, i would not sign a five year deal until I knew for sure it was in their best interests.

 

[Fugu]

Actually Pronger is NOT like "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He cannot "choose what city" he wants to live in - at least not for another 4 years.

And yes, Pronger does owe the Edmonton Oilers (but not the fans) something - four more years on a signed contract.

Thanks also from me! I was wondering if some these kids were spending too much time in lollipop land where leprechauns roam freely. In fact, I'd given up on the discussion. The question never was about the importance of family, but about the options NHL players have, what rights they gave up collectively for the privilege of being NHL players, and honoring commitments (and legally binding contracts). They will learn. We all did.

Let me just throw in PERIOD as well. PERIOD.

 

[GSC2k2*]

I was wondering if some these kids were spending too much time in lollipop land where leprechauns roam freely.

Tremendous.

 

[Sotnos]

People with their new-age spewing who want to appear all sensitive and stuff can quite frankly cram it, as far as I am concerned. I would be willing to bet not a single one of them has a talent worth remarking upon, much less something for which they could demand serious dollars. Accordingly, they can feel free to say what they have in this thread while comfortable in the knowledge that they would never be called on to back it up.

And, incidentally, I have a family that I would take a bullet in the head for. I would quit my job (which is pretty remunerative) for them in a heartbeat. As such, i would not sign a five year deal until I knew for sure it was in their best interests.

Some of the kids here have a VERY warped view about responsibility. The time to think about what's best for your family is before you make such a huge commitment. After that, unless it's some sort of unavoidable emergency, it's not up to your boss to accomodate you because you changed your mind. The world doesn't revolve around you and your happiness, people!

I was wondering if some these kids were spending too much time in lollipop land where leprechauns roam freely.

Classic!

 

[hillbillypriest]

Actually Pronger is NOT like "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He cannot "choose what city" he wants to live in - at least not for another 4 years.

And yes, Pronger does owe the Edmonton Oilers (but not the fans) something - four more years on a signed contract.

He signed a 5 year contract with Edmonton in August. Edmonton is under no obligation whatsoever to trade him, or to trade him wherever he wants to go. Now it may be in Edmonton's best interest to trade him, rather than keep a disgruntled player, or risk a Yashin or TO-like holdout.

Yes Pronger is perfectly free to quit hockey - there is no way to force specific performance of the contract. Edmonton cannot force him to play against his will, but they can and will say who he has contractual obligations to if and when he ever plays in the NHL again.

If that kind of freedom and flexibility is important to a player, especially UFA eligible ones, then he should only sign 1 yr deals. You can have freedom or you can have the long term security of a multi year deal - you cannot have both.

Also, note that an NHL player is not like you or I or that mythical "ANY professional in ANY field" or a "senior software developer ... in high demand". He (or the NHLPA on his behalf) has negotiated away alot of the freedoms you and I take for granted, by agreeing to such restrictive practices as the draft and restricted free agency.

The NHL is not a free labor market by any stretch of the imagination, but it is the market in which the player has chosen to sell his services.

Thank you kdb209, I'm always a fan of your posts...

Pronger not only is contractually obligated to play, he's also contractually obligated to conduct himself in a way that does not harm the team. By having his agent leak a trade demand A WEEK BEFORE FREE AGENCY, with a whole roster of UFAs to sign, was clearly dreadfully harmful to the team.

Here is an exerpt from the standard player contract that I used in another recent post on the Oilers board. The highlighting is obviously mine.

2. The Player agrees to give his services and to play hockey in all NHL Games, All Star Games, International Hockey Games and Exhibition Games to the best of his ability under the direction and control of the Club in accordance with the provisions hereof.

The Player further agrees,

(a) to report to his Club's Training Camp at the time and place fixed by the Club, in good physical condition,



(b) to keep himself in good physical condition at all times during the season,

(c) to give his best services to the Club and to play hockey only for the Club unless his SPC is Assigned, Loaned or terminated by the Club,

(d) to co-operate with the Club and participate in any and all reasonable promotional activities of the Club which will in the opinion of the Club, promote the welfare of the Club and to cooperate in the promotion of the League and professional hockey generally,

(e) to conduct himself on and off the rink according to the highest standards of honesty, morality, fair play and sportsmanship, and to refrain from conduct detrimental to the best interest of the Club, the League or professional hockey generally.

3. In Order that the Player shall be fit and in proper condition for the performance of his duties as required by this SPC and the Agreement, the Player agrees to report for practice at such time and place as the Club may reasonably designate and participate in such Exhibition Games as may be arranged by the Club.

4. The Club may from time to time during the continuance of this SPC establish reasonable rules governing the conduct and conditioning of the Player, and such reasonable rules shall form part of this SPC and the agreement as fully as if herein written. For violation of any such rules or for any conduct impairing the thorough and faithful discharge of the duties incumbent upon the Player, the Club may impose a reasonable fine upon the Player and deduct the amount thereof from any money due or to become due to the Player. The Club may also suspend the Player for violation of any such rules. When the Player is fined or suspended, he shall be given notice in writing stating the amount of the fine and/or the duration of the suspension and the reason therefor. Copies of the rules referred to herein shall be filed at the main offices of the League and the National Hockey League Players' Association ("NHLPA").

This is part of the contract that Pronger signed. This is was signed after the new CBA came into effect, so if these provisions were in previous CBA's standard player contract, the NHLPA didn't negotiate them away. These are clearly very one sided terms in the teams favour. However, the kicker is that Pronger knew about them when he signed for 5 years for an agreed amount. In his case, a very large amount.

As you (kdb209) have pointed out, Pronger does NOT have an obligation to the fans but he has a very large one to the team LEGALLY.

Although Pronger has not said he will not report to Edmonton if a trade doesn't happen, if I were Lowe, I would force him to state publicly by mid-summer at the latest that he is prepared to report to the team and declare that he will give a 100% effort to the Oilers while he remains under contract to the team. If he does that, I would take him at his word and I would not trade him. He could live with the boos in Edmonton, just as Yashin had to. Alternatively, if he does not indicate that he is 100% dedicated to playing his best in Edmonton, I would suspend him, move on with building a team without him and let him live off his prior savings essentially forever or until the Oilers decide to trade him.

 

[Winger98]

Although Pronger has not said he will not report to Edmonton if a trade doesn't happen, if I were Lowe, I would force him to state publicly by mid-summer at the latest that he is prepared to report to the team and declare that he will give a 100% effort to the Oilers while he remains under contract to the team. If he does that, I would take him at his word and I would not trade him. He could live with the boos in Edmonton, just as Yashin had to. Alternatively, if he does not indicate that he is 100% dedicated to playing his best in Edmonton, I would suspend him, move on with building a team without him and let him live off his prior savings essentially forever or until the Oilers decide to trade him.

So you would have him sign a loyalty oath or something?

All Pronger's done is ask for a trade which is perfectly within his rights. He has done nothing to lead anyone to believe he won't suit up for the Oil in the fall if he's still with them and a stunt like you'd try to make him perform would only make matters worse. People are making far too big a deal out of this.

 

[hillbillypriest]

So you would have him sign a loyalty oath or something?

All Pronger's done is ask for a trade which is perfectly within his rights. He has done nothing to lead anyone to believe he won't suit up for the Oil in the fall if he's still with them and a stunt like you'd try to make him perform would only make matters worse. People are making far too big a deal out of this.

Fine. See you in September Chris. Have a good summer.

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

Some of the kids here have a VERY warped view about responsibility. The time to think about what's best for your family is before you make such a huge commitment. After that, unless it's some sort of unavoidable emergency, it's not up to your boss to accomodate you because you changed your mind. The world doesn't revolve around you and your happiness, people!


Classic!

for the record, i feel Pronger has to play out the terms of his contract, no excuses. however, that doesnt change his human right to ask for a trade. EDM has no obligation to trade him and tough beans for him if they dont.

still doesnt make Pronger
a) breaking his contract by asking for a trade
b) not allowed to ask for said trade

 

[GSC2k2*]

for the record, i feel Pronger has to play out the terms of his contract, no excuses. however, that doesnt change his human right to ask for a trade. EDM has no obligation to trade him and tough beans for him if they dont.

still doesnt make Pronger
a) breaking his contract by asking for a trade
b) not allowed to ask for said trade

It soothes my soul to know that you are still out there on the stump for players' "human rights", DR.

You knowingly missed the real point, of course - which is whether Chris Pronger is morally wrong in backtracking on his contractual promise to play and provide his best services in Edmonton for five years.

The correct answer, of course, is "yes".

 

[Brent Burns Beard]

It soothes my soul to know that you are still out there on the stump for players' "human rights", DR.

You knowingly missed the real point, of course - which is whether Chris Pronger is morally wrong in backtracking on his contractual promise to play and provide his best services in Edmonton for five years.

The correct answer, of course, is "yes".

and when he withholds his services, i will stand in the lineup right beside you to tar and feather his worthless ***.

in the meantime, he has simply asked for a trade and i dont see anything evil in that.

 

[txomisc]

and when he withholds his services, i will stand in the lineup right beside you to tar and feather his worthless ***.

in the meantime, he has simply asked for a trade and i dont see anything evil in that.

Well its not the worst thing in the history of the world but its going to be tough to get full value for him considering everyone knows he doesnt want to be in edmonton (who knows who made it public) and there are a limited number of teams who could even take his salary on. More than likely, the oilers will be a worse team without pronger than they were with him

 

[GSC2k2*]

and when he withholds his services, i will stand in the lineup right beside you to tar and feather his worthless ***.

in the meantime, he has simply asked for a trade and i dont see anything evil in that.

Evil? No. This IS only hockey.

If he was involved in leaking this in order to force the issue, it shows a profound lack of character.

 

[geezette]

Until he holds out, or asks for more money, you really can't jump on him.

 

[braincramp]

Marriage is a contract, also. And a very long-term one. And far more important than an SPC.

He has not broken any contract with Edmonton, merely asked for consideration. And he asked it from the club, not the fans or the press. He has not failed to perform under his contract.

No one has perfect vision, and the notion that one can forsee every possible unfortunate outcome of a decision, such as marriage, or an SPC, is nonsense.

Many posters here are simply disappointed. Their selfish demands to have him run his life for their amusement is incredulous. They feel he has broken faith with them, but insist he must break faith with his wife.

Why do you think you own him? Because you bought a jersey with his name on it? Because you watch him play a few games each year? You didn't sign the contract -- let those who did work it out.

 

[braincramp]

. . . there are a limited number of teams who could even take his salary on . . .

Hardly the impression one gets from the first day of free agency . . .

 

[GSC2k2*]

Marriage is a contract, also. And a very long-term one. And far more important than an SPC.

He has not broken any contract with Edmonton, merely asked for consideration. And he asked it from the club, not the fans or the press. He has not failed to perform under his contract.

No one has perfect vision, and the notion that one can forsee every possible unfortunate outcome of a decision, such as marriage, or an SPC, is nonsense.

Many posters here are simply disappointed. Their selfish demands to have him run his life for their amusement is incredulous. They feel he has broken faith with them, but insist he must break faith with his wife.

Why do you think you own him? Because you bought a jersey with his name on it? Because you watch him play a few games each year? You didn't sign the contract -- let those who did work it out.

What a misguided post.

Firstly, your generalization regarding the motivation of posters is nonsense. I, for one, am not an Edmonton fan. Methinks you assume a little too much.

My concern is for the overall stability of the league. Every time a guy signs a longterm deal and then decides he can no longer live with it chips away at league stability. The league is at its most stable when contracts are respected.

Secondly, while marriage is also a contract of sorts (albeit one that can be terminated at will by either one of the parties - quite unlike a hockey contract), there is nothing to suggest that Pronger would be breaking his marriage contract by requiring his wife and family to stay in Edmonton while he completes his contractual obligations. Are you suggesting that Pronger signed his deal without consulting his wife? How would he break his marriage vows by continuing to play hockey in Edmonton as he is legally obligated to do? It is not an either/or thing. This is where your "logic" (if I may generously call it that) jumps the rails rather egregiously.

Thirdly, there is no "unfortunate outcome" that we have been made aware of. IF Pronger comes forward and lets us in on a very good reason - ie child or family member illnesses - then that is fine. If they simply don't like the city, that is not good enough to try to force a trade (which is what has been done by leaking this to the press). His current "unfortunate outcome" is making $6.25 million per year on a Stanley Cup finalist while living in a Canadian city which, as far as I know, is decent enough and probably like any other city of its size.

He needs to explain himself. If he has no compelling reason, the moral thing to do is to shut his mouth and honour his word, and for his wife (who undoubtedly bought into the deal when Pronger signed it) to do so as well. "Love, honour and respect/obey/whatever" works both ways.

As for your final point, if we just refrained from commenting on contract/business issues and let "those who did work it out", this would be a quiet board. We are allowed our opinions, but thank you for your effort to stifle them. It will be considered - and duly ignored.

 

[eliasISawesome]

I agree with the people that think he dont owe anything to the fans of Edmonton.
In fact Edmonton fans should thank Chris for helping them make it that far.

Also if you hated a city, would you give 110% every day in and day out? some people would, but not everyone, Chris just fits into the 2nd part. Nothing wrong with that. I dont think people realize NHL players have emotions just like us, and have personal problems just like us. The only diff is they are more talented then us, hence making more money.

Its not like he asked for a trade during the season, he waited till the end, and before the next season.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Secondly, while marriage is also a contract of sorts (albeit one that can be terminated at will by either one of the parties - quite unlike a hockey contract), there is nothing to suggest that Pronger would be breaking his marriage contract by requiring his wife and family to stay in Edmonton while he completes his contractual obligations. Are you suggesting that Pronger signed his deal without consulting his wife? How would he break his marriage vows by continuing to play hockey in Edmonton as he is legally obligated to do? It is not an either/or thing. This is where your "logic" (if I may generously call it that) jumps the rails rather egregiously.

I don't know if you're married or not - either way, it doesn't matter. Take a job that requires you to move 1200 miles away and forces the rest of your family to make a decision: stay or go?

If they stay, then you're away from the spouse and children (if any). That seems like not such a big deal - maybe you two are multi-millionaires and can fly back and forth to each other whenever you want ... what's the big deal?

Kids have a *very* difficult time adjusting to having to go from two parents around to just one, whatever the reason is. It's incredibly difficult and stressful on them to have a parent drop in every so often and then be gone 2 days later - each party gets into a routine that's different from the other, and when the two get together toes get stepped on, feelings get hurt, and tempers flare ... and it makes it that much harder on the kids to adjust and cope.

If the rest of the family goes, they pick up and leave everything that is familiar. The kids have relationships with friends, family, ... and it's all torn apart so that the parents and kids can be together. Then it's a matter of adjusting to the new area, which isn't like where they were. Different culture, different ideas, different values ... and if it's too great a clash, then there's problems getting adjusted and that can be just as stressful as anything else. Kids want to go back home, parents struggle to get the kids to buy in to staying, ...and again - it's difficult for the kids to adjust and cope.

For your comment about "if they simply don't like the city", see my above paragraph. Given the choice between being where I am and having the rest of my family be miserable and suffer every day, I'd move them away to make things better in a heartbeat. I can always find another job in my field; I can't find another family to replace the one I have.

If he has no compelling reason, the moral thing to do is to shut his mouth and honour his word, and for his wife (who undoubtedly bought into the deal when Pronger signed it) to do so as well. "Love, honour and respect/obey/whatever" works both ways.

It's "love, honor, and cherish". There is no "obey" in the vows, regardless of what Bill Cosby says in his skit on marriage. Marriage is a two-way street, there's give and take on both sides. It is something no one here will ever understand unless they're faced with a choice of "stay here and lose the one you truly love" or "go and keep the one you love".

That's a decision no amount of money in the world can influence; to believe otherwise is taking a *very* simplistic view of how love works and how easy it is for someone to just shake off the emotional attachment invested into their spouse.

Perhaps you believe the moral thing is for both of them to shut up. I have this idea that a person's happiness should never come at the expense of someone else's ... but that's why people have different morals. That's also why it's dangerous to try and impose your morals on someone else, as history has shown time and time and time again.

You're entitled to your opinion, and that's fine. But it doesn't mean everyone else should have to live their lives according to it.

We are allowed our opinions, but thank you for your effort to stifle them. It will be considered - and duly ignored.

I suggest the "ignore user" feature may be of *very* practical use at this point.