Post-Game Talk: Player Performance Tracking: Contributing to Goals For/Against

Xaroc

Registered User
Aug 3, 2005
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Carrick and Erskine were both right next to Saad from the top of the circles to the net. Neither one did anything to tie his stick up. How is Carrick not at least partially responsible for not tying Saad's stick up unless you believe that was Erskine's and only Erskine's job and Carrick should have been doing something else completely unrelated to anyone else in that play?

Maybe it was one of those 'I thought you had him' 'and I thought you had him' things but in the end neither had him and it is both of their fault.

Carrick gets more of a ding for the turnover IMO. The fact he actually got back to be anywhere near Saad after leading the rush is pretty impressive. He would have had to go through Erskine to get to Saad to put a stick on him.
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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What is this 'play' you are talking about here? He stuck his stick in front of the net and deflected the puck. What is he supposed to do stand there quietly and signal goal if it goes in?

Grabovski is more of a get towards the net guy than any of the others who played in either his or Backstrom's roles last year besides maybe Perreault who didn't get a whole lot of time there.

Again, we are talking about maybe 8 feet from where he was standing when he deflected those pucks and where he stands when Backstrom has the puck on the half wall.

Once again, I'm not arguing against him doing what he did. I like it. I want more net-front presence and more movement on the powerplay. As for what he "should" be doing. Per last year, the other players in his position would plant themselves on the right side of the net of the net and attempting to stuff in a rebound.

But it's definitely a play. Backstrom moves the puck to Green. Then three things happen simultaneously. Brouwer moves out of the shooting lane, taking his defender with him. Grabovski sneaks underneath that defender into the low slot. Green fires the puck. Brouwer's actions were definitely a designed play for that situation, and Grabovski's can certainly be worked into one.
 

Hivemind

We're Touched
Oct 8, 2010
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Carrick and Erskine were both right next to Saad from the top of the circles to the net. Neither one did anything to tie his stick up. How is Carrick not at least partially responsible for not tying Saad's stick up unless you believe that was Erskine's and only Erskine's job and Carrick should have been doing something else completely unrelated to anyone else in that play?

Maybe it was one of those 'I thought you had him' 'and I thought you had him' things but in the end neither had him and it is both of their fault.
I'll have to watch the play again, as I definitely thought Erskine was closer and initially picked him up (and then just let him skate by afterwards). Erskine was also the left defenseman and had the inside positioning on Saad, both things that point towards him being responsible. Carrick, as he was coming back late and Backstrom had already assumed his position as the RD, should have been responsible for taking over the next Blackhawk into the zone.

Miscommunication most likely did play a factor, though.

Carrick gets more of a ding for the turnover IMO. The fact he actually got back to be anywhere near Saad after leading the rush is pretty impressive. He would have had to go through Erskine to get to Saad to put a stick on him.
It was Johansson who turned over the puck.
 

NoMoreChoking

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Sep 30, 2009
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Are people really this angry after 1 loss the first game of year, against the Stanley cup champions, on the road, where we would of been in OT if holtby didn't derp?

:shakehead
 

Ajax1995

Registered User
Dec 9, 2002
8,797
859
Carrick gets more of a ding for the turnover IMO. The fact he actually got back to be anywhere near Saad after leading the rush is pretty impressive. He would have had to go through Erskine to get to Saad to put a stick on him.

At the very end yes, but that is only because instead of getting himself in proper position on Saad he was puck watching and let Saad get inside him. Saad and Carrick cross the blueline at the same time and Carrick is gliding at that point. Saad digs hard to get inside of Carrick and Carrick doesn't even try to stop him because he is focused on the puck. By the time he realizes he needs to move his feet Saad has position on him. Saad had farther to go and Erskine to deal with at the same time and he still got position on Carrick.

He has to do better. Getting outmuscled by a guy with 4 inches and 40lbs on you I can handle. This was just a poor effort and a mental mistake. He's young, it happens, and I hope he learns from it.
 

Ajax1995

Registered User
Dec 9, 2002
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It was Johansson who turned over the puck.

It was Carrick. I just watched it 10 times so I could properly assign blame...

Johansson made a nice pass to Carrick who tried to make the ill advised touch pass to Ovechkin that was quickly turned the other way.
 

RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
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Blames of note

100% on Oates and McPhee for tossing Carrick out to the champs. And in doing so, gave him a partner cut of the same mold.

Green 80% Holtby 20%

Holtby goes to hug the post, the far side is wide open. No one covered Kane, Holtby had to pick a poison. That said, i think he could have been a tad closer to the post. Green seemed to sit there stunned that Toews went behind Holts. He is our vet, he is our leader on the blue. Go attack the guy with puck. Far too passive for a Dman. No excuse to watch. He will never win a Norris like that.

I am kind of pissed that we are running our exact same PP as last year. You know the only way they want Grabs to score is off a pass from Ovi, like Erat did. I sure as hell hope Grabs opened up their eyes to adding the deflection to our arsenal. Our great PP can also get greater.

It boggles the mind to hear this come out to the media after one ****ing game. In which he gets a hat trick bucking the rigid system just doing what he does best. Score goals. He should twerk, so sorry, its in my instinct to help when the Dman stands up top and does nothing. I will stand in the corner next time.

Worst part, now opposing teams know we will not do that, not game plan for what actually worked best for us last game. :facepalm:
 
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Devil Dancer

Registered User
Jan 21, 2006
18,439
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I don't really care what the PP looks like as long as it's effective, though adaptation can be a concern in the playoffs. Still, the Caps didn't lose to the Rags last year because the PP failed, it was because they failed to get PPs.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
64,384
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That we have a blame thread instead of a normal analysis thread (both positive and negative), speak volumes to some of our fanbase. I'll pass...
 

SimplySensational

Heard of Hough
Mar 27, 2011
18,839
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VA
Goal 2: 50% on Green for simply standing there guarding the post a la Witt, 25% on Holtby for not challenging the shot at all, and 25% on Fehr for getting lost and not recognizing Kane had the puck. I do think half the guys on the ice didn't know where the puck was as they didn't see Kane snatch it out of the air though.

He wasn't just standing there, he was covering Toews and Toews slipped through the crease, Holtby however, he just stood there because he lost his net, which he does all the damn time.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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New Bern, NC
It boggles the mind to hear this come out to the media after one ****ing game. In which he gets a hat trick bucking the rigid system just doing what he does best.

so...essentially you are saying grabs should tell Oates to shut up and let him play how he wants to play. eh? buck the system. screw the coach.

just a thought, but maybe this is why he has had interpersonal issues at his previous jobs.

brouwer is a vocal leader. my take on him speaking up is this is not his first experience with grabovski freelancing.

maybe next ov tells coach he is playing left wing from now on.
 

RandyHolt

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Nov 3, 2006
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Oates?

Maybe we should start with Oates telling his players to shut up.

Brouwer is vocal. What is Green? A member of the united front, apparently. I dont know how common it is for players to coach players but I assumed it was the coaches job. At least for the first game.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
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brouwer and green are both alternate captains. correct? oates is a players coach who treats players how he wanted to be treated. its just my read, but I think that includes having the players leadership taking these kinds of things on.

but that's just my read. so....back to my question. you support players playing how they want to rather than following the coaches plan. right? buck the system? first game in...screw what the coach says and do what you want.
 

RandyHolt

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So Brouwer and Green are PR people now?

I go back to my question, why the hell are going to the media about internal issues.

Brouwer sure seemed quick to go congratulate Grabs after scoring.

Have you long supported Ovi doing his thing, winning Harts loafing on defense? Or have you been critical of him.

It's a little bit short sighted to argue with success.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
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New Bern, NC
So Brouwer and Green are PR people now?

I go back to my question, why the hell are going to the media about internal issues.

Brouwer sure seemed quick to go congratulate Grabs after scoring.

Have you long supported Ovi doing his thing, winning Harts loafing on defense? Or have you been critical of him.

It's a little bit short sighted to argue with success.

1. I don't know why they both spoke to the media about it. maybe Oates asked them to. eh? maybe Ov asked them to.
2. I don't support Ov doing is own thing to the detriment of the group. I have been critical of him. You, btw, were the one that so desperately wanted Ov on rw when Ov himself clearly didn't want to do that. in the end he did what the coach wanted.

I guess you wont answer my question. I guess you don't need to now. Your position is clear.
 

brs03

Coo coo ca cha!
Jun 2, 2008
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When the reporters brought it up in Oates' interview, he came right out and said that that's how he wants Grabovski to play in those situations. So one of three things is happening:

1.) (most likely?) Everyone's comments are much more nuanced than we're getting, and the breakdown is really a more minor one or not a breakdown at all, just a new look players are getting used to

2.) There's a miscommunication between Oates and not-Grabo, and their comments are meaningless

3.) Their comments are true and Oates is covering for Grabo to the press

You're free to decide which of them is likely true. I believe that new look was a sensible one, so I would think it was something Oates (or Forsythe) intended. And I haven't seen the actual quotes from Brouwer and Green (has anyone, or are we all just getting our knickers in a twist over a secondhand retelling from Chuck Gormley of all people?) so I have no idea how serious or troubled they were by the situation.
 

ChibiPooky

Yay hockey!
May 25, 2011
11,486
2
Fairfax, VA
The Blame Game: Who created the goals for and who to blame for the goals against. Plus/Minus hurts guys not actually involved in the goals and don't count multiple plays that help/hurt (see carrick on the first goal)

Chicago Goals -

Bollig from Hjalmarsson and Kruger
1. Carrick bumped off the puck
2. Hillen weak on the puck
3. Brower in the corner leaving the point open
4. Carrick out muscled in front on the rebound

Kane
1. Fehr lets kane catch the puck and drift right by
2. Green lets kane get a clean shot off

Seabrook
1. Carlson probably with a bit of a screen
2. Fehr probably gets too low leaving seabrook open

Saad
1. Johanssen with the turnover in the high slot
2. backstrom with weak pressure on handzus
3. Erskine for lets saad slip by him and get a touch on the puck

Oduya
1. Holtby...gotta have that save.

Hossa
Nobody...good effort, but empty net.

Washington Goals -

Ovechkin from Grabovski and Backstrom
1. Ovechkin with a nice read/react on the deflected pass
2. Grabovski with the vision (although the pass was off, it ended up working)
3. backstrom with the pass down low

Grabovski
1. Ward for the puck pressure
2. Grabovski with nice look off and the shot

Grabovski from green and ovechkin
1. Nice faceoff win by backstron
2. Fake slapper from Ovi
3. Shot on goal from green
4. Grabo i guess for getting hit with the puck

Grabovski from Green and Backstrom
1. Wheelhouse setup from backstrom
2. Shot on net from green
3. nice tip from grabo


Totals:

Pluses
2 - Ovi
4 - Grabo
3 - backstrom
1 - ward
2 - Green

Minuses
2 - Carrick
1 - Hillen
1 - brower
2 - fehr
1 - green
1 - carlson
1 - backstrom
1 - johansson
1 - erskine

Total
+4 Grabovski
+2 Ovechkin
+2 Backstrom
+1 Green
+1 Ward
-1 Hillen
-1 Brower
-1 Carlson
-1 Johansson
-1 Erskine
-1 Holtby
-2 Fehr
-2 Carrick

I like the quoted format, and would embrace a thread rename. I would also embrace keeping running season totals (perhaps per poster).

So here's what I propose: For each poster who wants to post their analysis in this format, I'll keep a spreadsheet tallying season-to-date results. We can then, at certain points, get some insight as to general consensus, individual bias, and other things that may not have been so apparent without tracking.

If you want to do this, I'll edit the OP to reflect it and fire up Excel.
 

RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
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I guess you wont answer my question. I guess you don't need to now. Your position is clear.

Yes Tex, my position is clear.

Crystal.

Since no one has told me that Green and Brouwer are the PR dept for the Capitals AND coach the power play, I see no benefit of them addressing the media about what I consider a private matter.

How many mistakes do you think were made in the game? Collectively, from Holts on out. 10? 100?

Yet the goals were the mistakes fellow players called each other out for, in his first game? Have you ever heard of such a thing, ever? Let me know the last time you heard players find faults on goals. Their own!

Oates may want to run a tight ship, but we are far away from needing to address problems with positive plays to the media in game 1. In fact, I think it may create more problems than it helps.
 

txpd

Registered User
Jan 25, 2003
69,649
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New Bern, NC
well....rh, what we know for sure is that if its not seen by your eyes or someone reliable, it hasn't happened.

so, whats your take on brouwer and green's comments? oh...wait, that requires analysis rather than concrete, somebody told you, evidence.

so, here is what we know. they said it. we don't know why they said it. all we know is that they said it.

lets say, they shouldn't have said it and that what they said was an accurate reflection of the situation. you favor a player freelancing when he wants to. right?
 

RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
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Its hilarious watching you trying your best to paint me into a corner. Ironicially I think we have had the king of freelancing for much of the recent past.

Semin.

"Oates' interview, he came right out and said that that's how he wants Grabovski to play in those situations"

So now we have a coach on damage control for their actions. Which validates my point, it was dumb for them to say it.

You refuse to answer my question. Payback is a biotch. How many mistakes do you think were collectively made in the game?
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
Its hilarious watching you trying your best to paint me into a corner. Ironicially I think we have had the king of freelancing for much of the recent past.

Semin.

"Oates' interview, he came right out and said that that's how he wants Grabovski to play in those situations"

So now we have a coach on damage control for their actions. Which validates my point, it was dumb for them to say it.

You refuse to answer my question. Payback is a biotch. How many mistakes do you think were collectively made in the game?

Just look at the Redskins and RGIII...he wants to be honest..be candid and answer questions...what he has to realize is that he will feed the media and they will warp it into something controversial so as to generate interest.

Thats why so many atheletes give generic answers. Ovie is one of the best tho..he finds a way to make things funny and avoid the question. "I have chance I must skoar goalz"

As a player you don't want the media create a picture that you are throwing a teamate publically under the bus.
 

RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
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Hockey players always used to be humble. Never accepting credit. Ever. And in doing so, never threw teammates under the bus.

"That was a helluva goal you scored!"

"Um, I got lucky, it was a great pass, I just had my stick on the ice. I am just happy to be here helping out the team."

There was loyalty among players, they always had each others backs. Oates may have told his As to go complain to the media about concerns over Grabs WRT to his checkered past, but then I have to ask, why in the world did George bring him in, if that was a huge concern? That we plan to use the media to get Grabs to buy in.

Live with Laich at center and have no drama.
 

Vladiator16*

Guest
So... The dude score 3 goals and an assist in his debut and gets *****ed out. I wonder whats gonna happen if he has a bad game...

Brow and Green are creating a problem if you ask me.
 

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