Player Discussion: Patric Hornqvist

[cassius]

I would just assume you would learn from your classic mistake that you make over and over and over again. It's like Pens fans think this will always just be a perfect ride. And when the dark times come, a lot of names pop up over and over to point out the negatives more than anything. Then pooooof - disappear and never have to eat their words, eh?

But some of my favorite part is looking through history and seeing if someone is really a fan or not. THREE total posts during the SCF in 2016. And then nothing until December of that year. Almost.... interesting, eh? But in December of 2015 you started 3 threads and had a ton of posts during the dark months before we turned it around. 3 THREADS in December and 0 posts after we won the Cup.



Buuuuuut because history is fun. Here is a 5 minute search. I am sure 5 more minutes would double all I needed to see.


December 2015: Does JR Need to go? - Cassius thread
Does JR need to go?

Couple weeks later: Is JR the worst GM in the NHL? - Cassius thread
Is Rutherford the worst GM in the NHL?

Should Rutherford get fired? - Cassius thread
Proposal: - Poll: Should Rutherford get fired?


And then it starts to make sense... you claimed Horny was a grinder on 12/9/15 and that the trade Neal for Horny was terrible. Yikes... you've been waiting for this moment for over 3 years for Hornqvist to fail a bit.

Neal-Hornqvist/Spaling trade

And more Hornqvist hate:

Neal-Hornqvist/Spaling trade

Glad to know I'm living rent free somewhere .. if only it were not on HFBoards and in real life

 

[Shady Machine]

Not seeing the parallels

Brian Rust has produced this year, is younger, and is on a much more cap friendly deal...

Hornqvist... basically the entire opposite

Horny was producing earlier in the season (14 goals in first 29 games). Post concussions he's been really struggling. Rust struggled earlier and producing now. Both went through major slumps.

Totally fair to be concerned about Horny but he deserves a lot of rope because 1.He's been a huge part of this team and 2.Pens need a player like him

 

[ColePens]

Glad to know I'm living rent free somewhere .. if only it were not on HFBoards and in real life

I mean sure.. if that's what you want to feel? I'm just here celebrating the Pens success and talking hockey. It's entertainment at the end of the day. But I've been here long enough to know who runs away when they win and shows up when it's a trying time.

It's just a sport. Just entertainment. We've been beyond blessed. But when certain users come in with an agenda, it's easy for the vets of the board to see through it with ease. And post history never lies.

 

[cassius]

Posting my thoughts here regarding the possibility of trading Hornqvist.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact.

$5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing .

Look nobody knows the answers to these questions, but it's fun to discuss and debate them. Although certain unnamed posters around here get very emotional and can't handle looking at things with a different point of view. That's fine though. Some people are going to get emotional and touchy feely, but I'm talking about this strictly from a GM's perspective.

Let's say Hornqvist is just going through a "slump" - I'd argue that 0 points in 14 is WAY more than a slump. Option #1 is we ride this out and hope it gets better.

However, if his game undergoes a total and sudden breakdown - we're saddled with a slow, physically depleted player who possesses a cap hit of $5.3M through the year 2023. That is a significant problem.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact. $5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing.

Logically, one could argue that Hornqvist's trade value is only going to get worse and you may want to consider trading him now while he still has value.

Let's not forget that one of the greatest goalies (in the eyes of fans around here) actually had NEGATIVE value and we had to ship him off with a 2nd round pick just to entice Vegas to take him off our hands.

Not only did we get NOTHING for Fleury.. we had to give up a 2nd round pick to get rid of him!

All I'm saying is that you need to be proactive about these types of issues, or else you get into a situation where you're holding the bag on a guy that isn't worth any value on the trade market.

Asset management is the name of the game and sadly.. the Penguins have been getting $0.50 on the $1.00 as of late when it comes to trades.

 

[Jacob]

I doubt he’s still having concussion symptoms. I feel like with the way he plays he’d exacerbate the injury quickly and he’d be puking on the bench or having seizures or something.

Probably just a matter of losing his groove, and a bit of his 5-on-5 role, from when he was out of the lineup. And the PP stinks so he’s not getting those occasional PP points that might boost someone’s confidence.

I’m not adverse to trading him but he’d be far down the list of players that need jettisoned. Certainly behind Kessel, Johnson & Maatta.

 

[pistolpete11]

*insert GIF of Grandpa Simpson walking into a room just to walk out of it*

 

[ChaosAgent]

Posting my thoughts here regarding the possibility of trading Hornqvist.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact.

$5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing .

Look nobody knows the answers to these questions, but it's fun to discuss and debate them. Although certain unnamed posters around here get very emotional and can't handle looking at things with a different point of view. That's fine though. Some people are going to get emotional and touchy feely, but I'm talking about this strictly from a GM's perspective.

Let's say Hornqvist is just going through a "slump" - I'd argue that 0 points in 14 is WAY more than a slump. Option #1 is we ride this out and hope it gets better.

However, if his game undergoes a total and sudden breakdown - we're saddled with a slow, physically depleted player who possesses a cap hit of $5.3M through the year 2023. That is a significant problem.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact. $5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing.

Logically, one could argue that Hornqvist's trade value is only going to get worse and you may want to consider trading him now while he still has value.

Let's not forget that one of the greatest goalies (in the eyes of fans around here) actually had NEGATIVE value and we had to ship him off with a 2nd round pick just to entice Vegas to take him off our hands.

Not only did we get NOTHING for Fleury.. we had to give up a 2nd round pick to get rid of him!

All I'm saying is that you need to be proactive about these types of issues, or else you get into a situation where you're holding the bag on a guy that isn't worth any value on the trade market.

Asset management is the name of the game and sadly.. the Penguins have been getting $0.50 on the $1.00 as of late when it comes to trades.

I don't disagree with most of your points. If Hornqvist doesn't get his stuff in gear this year, I would move him this offseason.

However, I feel your point about Fleury is off-base. We had to pay someone off to get him because we were afraid of them taking other players (namely, Rust if I recall correctly). The expansion draft is a different beast as far as needing "sweeteners" goes. The Hunwick trade is a far better example of a player with negative value.

Edit: Jake may have been available in the expansion draft for Vegas as well. So yeah, paying the 2nd to hold onto him was a no-brainer.

 

[Shady Machine]

Posting my thoughts here regarding the possibility of trading Hornqvist.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact.

$5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing .

Look nobody knows the answers to these questions, but it's fun to discuss and debate them. Although certain unnamed posters around here get very emotional and can't handle looking at things with a different point of view. That's fine though. Some people are going to get emotional and touchy feely, but I'm talking about this strictly from a GM's perspective.

Let's say Hornqvist is just going through a "slump" - I'd argue that 0 points in 14 is WAY more than a slump. Option #1 is we ride this out and hope it gets better.

However, if his game undergoes a total and sudden breakdown - we're saddled with a slow, physically depleted player who possesses a cap hit of $5.3M through the year 2023. That is a significant problem.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact. $5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing.

Logically, one could argue that Hornqvist's trade value is only going to get worse and you may want to consider trading him now while he still has value.

Let's not forget that one of the greatest goalies (in the eyes of fans around here) actually had NEGATIVE value and we had to ship him off with a 2nd round pick just to entice Vegas to take him off our hands.

Not only did we get NOTHING for Fleury.. we had to give up a 2nd round pick to get rid of him!

All I'm saying is that you need to be proactive about these types of issues, or else you get into a situation where you're holding the bag on a guy that isn't worth any value on the trade market.

Asset management is the name of the game and sadly.. the Penguins have been getting $0.50 on the $1.00 as of late when it comes to trades.

Winning Cups is the name of the game and Horny helped the Pens win them. Can he still help or not? That's the question worth debating, not whether we can the best value out of the trade.

Prudent asset management is a part of winning Cups, but I'm not moving Horny just to maximize his trade value until I have filled his role for cheaper.

 

[LOGiK]

So we are now on the trade Hornqvist train here at the boards... surprise surprise.... but not really.

 

[Beauner]

So we are now on the trade Hornqvist train here at the boards... surprise surprise.... but not really.

I hear ya.
It's been 15 freaking games. Rust was this bad for twice as long. Everyone calm the f*** down. If he's still playing like this in October THEN be concerned

 

[ColePens]

So we are now on the trade Hornqvist train here at the boards... surprise surprise.... but not really.

I hear ya.
It's been 15 freaking games. Rust was this bad for twice as long. Everyone calm the **** down. If he's still playing like this in October THEN be concerned

That's not what the thread is about, though. There are a handful of people doing what they normally do when the Pens struggle - come online and make it as dramatic as possible.

 

[Ryder71]

I stated this before he signed his deal that I would not give him more than three years. That said I completely understand why they did. With the way he plays you would think at some point the wear and tear would prematurely curtail his contributions. At least I did. But that doesn't mean at this juncture I'd write him off. I believe he still has a decent year or two in him.

 

[EightyOne]

A classic Cassius thread. Wait for something not to go right, creep online, post about it, and run away if the Pens end up winning again.

I mean, regardless of OPs posting tendencies, Hornqvist has been mostly shit lately, injured often, and average Horny for like a third of the games.

It is a problem. He was a big factor on the PP success and energy of the top six. Now he can't find traction anywhere.

It is a discussion to be had, but, I wouldn't trade him juuust yet. But he needs to get his shit sorted out real f***ing quick.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Posting my thoughts here regarding the possibility of trading Hornqvist.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact.

$5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing .

Look nobody knows the answers to these questions, but it's fun to discuss and debate them. Although certain unnamed posters around here get very emotional and can't handle looking at things with a different point of view. That's fine though. Some people are going to get emotional and touchy feely, but I'm talking about this strictly from a GM's perspective.

Let's say Hornqvist is just going through a "slump" - I'd argue that 0 points in 14 is WAY more than a slump. Option #1 is we ride this out and hope it gets better.

However, if his game undergoes a total and sudden breakdown - we're saddled with a slow, physically depleted player who possesses a cap hit of $5.3M through the year 2023. That is a significant problem.

It's not about today.. its about the future.. through 2023 to be exact. $5.3M is a lot of $ to commit to a forward who isn't producing.

Logically, one could argue that Hornqvist's trade value is only going to get worse and you may want to consider trading him now while he still has value.

Let's not forget that one of the greatest goalies (in the eyes of fans around here) actually had NEGATIVE value and we had to ship him off with a 2nd round pick just to entice Vegas to take him off our hands.

Not only did we get NOTHING for Fleury.. we had to give up a 2nd round pick to get rid of him!

All I'm saying is that you need to be proactive about these types of issues, or else you get into a situation where you're holding the bag on a guy that isn't worth any value on the trade market.

Asset management is the name of the game and sadly.. the Penguins have been getting $0.50 on the $1.00 as of late when it comes to trades.

As always, context is key.

When you start a thread with the premise that Hornqvist has mysteriously lost his mojo with 0 points in his last 14 games and may now be a big white elephant for the team because of it, citing his "ample opportunity to play with superstar linemates" while conveniently omitting that he's been playing on the 3rd line for those 14 games without any superstar linemates, your motivations come into question.

Hornqvist's circumstances have changed dramatically. If you don't take that into account, you're not representing the situation truthfully. All anyone should infer from this unproductive stretch is that Horny can really struggle when he doesn't have the sort of skill that can carry the play while he works like a rabid honey badger in the hard areas.

If he gets put in the top 6 and still struggles, then that's a different story.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I'd feel a lot better about Hornqvist if his contract expired in 2020, not 2023. That deal concerned me from the jump.

I love what he's brought to our team up until this year, and his playing style. He's another player that is significantly better when we play in the offensive zone...defensively if the puck comes up to him on the boards he's been "Scuderi"-ing it quite a bit. But then again our whole breakout if messed up, so...

In a vacuum, I might agree about the contract. IMO, the last year of his deal is completely irrelevant because the window is closed at that point. We have an aging Geno, Phil, Letang, and Rust who are UFA's that season and who are either going to move on or be signed for more than their worth. Frankly, this team probably slows down to the point that they aren't relevant for the last 2 years of Horny's contract. So, I don't believe that the term is as risky as it might seem.

The only way we avoid it is if we start collecting picks and knocking drafts out of the park. And in that case, we'd have plenty of ELC's to keep the cap down.

 

[Empoleon8771]

There is a justification for moving Hornqvist, it's just not "he sucks now and he's going to fall off". The justification for moving him is to get younger, you have Guentzel who can take his spot on the top PP and he doesn't fit well with Crosby (because Crosby doesn't want to play with him) or Malkin. When he's playing well, you overlook those things. But when he's really struggling? Those issues become front and center.

The idea that the Penguins have to trade Hornqvist because "the Penguins had to pay Vegas to take Fleury" is just idiotic. If you're trading Hornqvist because of a bad 15 game run or you're trading him because he may fall off...well, I'm glad you don't run this team

 

[Arkadiusz]

I doubt he’s still having concussion symptoms. I feel like with the way he plays he’d exacerbate the injury quickly and he’d be puking on the bench or having seizures or something.
.

Not denying drop off in his production, but post-concussion symptoms can be very subtle. They can range from from difficulty focusing on job related tasks to difficulty with executive functioning and decision making. Not always going to get clear cut visible evidence...

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I would just assume you would learn from your classic mistake that you make over and over and over again. It's like Pens fans think this will always just be a perfect ride. And when the dark times come, a lot of names pop up over and over to point out the negatives more than anything. Then pooooof - disappear and never have to eat their words, eh?

But some of my favorite part is looking through history and seeing if someone is really a fan or not. THREE total posts during the SCF in 2016. And then nothing until December of that year. Almost.... interesting, eh? But in December of 2015 you started 3 threads and had a ton of posts during the dark months before we turned it around. 3 THREADS in December and 0 posts after we won the Cup.



Buuuuuut because history is fun. Here is a 5 minute search. I am sure 5 more minutes would double all I needed to see.


December 2015: Does JR Need to go? - Cassius thread
Does JR need to go?

Couple weeks later: Is JR the worst GM in the NHL? - Cassius thread
Is Rutherford the worst GM in the NHL?

Should Rutherford get fired? - Cassius thread
Proposal: - Poll: Should Rutherford get fired?


And then it starts to make sense... you claimed Horny was a grinder on 12/9/15 and that the trade Neal for Horny was terrible. Yikes... you've been waiting for this moment for over 3 years for Hornqvist to fail a bit.

Neal-Hornqvist/Spaling trade

And more Hornqvist hate:

Neal-Hornqvist/Spaling trade

This is a reminder to me to delete all my posts on a topic before engaging in a discussion with Cole.

 

[Will Hunting]

That contract was risky as hell from the beginning. I must admit, that I was always a Hornqvist doubter. He proved me wrong a few times already tho. But it has never been THIS BAD. He looks embarrassing on the ice. And his fit 5 vs 5 is not even questionable. It´s a no fit. He is almost useless 5 vs 5. And now I don´t even notice him on the powerplay, other than fumbling some pucks here and there. Diplomatically saying, this is a very risky contract. It´s early 2019 and we are already here. What about 2023? I would trade him ASAP but that´s just me. I would have traded Kessel last summer too, but that´s also just me. Having both dreadful 5vs5 players on our team with their age, hockey style and contracts... well well well. I think this is gonna kill us. Dark times incoming if JR doesn´t wake up immediately.

 

[Will Hunting]

A classic Cassius thread. Wait for something not to go right, creep online, post about it, and run away if the Pens end up winning again.

Of course you will defend your boy Horny. Just like you defended Phil. But look where we are. And look at where we are going. One hint: It´s not all because of Jack Johnson.

There are 3 big problems I see in our lineup. Well, maybe four or five.

1)Kessel
2)Johnson
3)Hornqvist
4)Pearson
5)Maatta

24 million right there, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[ChaosAgent]

1)Kessel
2)Johnson
3)Hornqvist
4)Pearson
5)Maatta

24 million right there, ladies and gentlemen.

It's pretty tempting to churn that 30% of our cap. Okay, even if we assume they are too far gone on JJ that's still 25% that should be turned over.

But Hornqvist has earned the chance to turn it around by the end of the season.

 

[Will Hunting]

It's pretty tempting to churn that 30% of our cap. Okay, even if we assume they are too far gone on JJ that's still 25% that should be turned over.

But Hornqvist has earned the chance to turn it around by the end of the season.

Whatever, probably he earns it, but I personally wouldn´t care about what who earns. Kessel probably earned this extra season too and look at that embarrassment. Anyway, Hornqvist is gonna get that "earned" chance. And we will see what happens then. I am scared of having him here in 2023, can´t imagine it going well. But what do I know.

 

[The Old Master]

But Hornqvist has earned the chance to turn it around by the end of the season.

I think he has too. but right now there are a lot of teams headed for the playoffs that would love to have him for that alone, and would be willing to pay dearly. not so much for the reg. season.

 

[Ugene Magic]

This Horny stuff is reminiscent of the Rust stuff earlier in the season.

Except Hornqvist has had multiple concussions. What was Rust's excuse? It just wasn't going for him at the time.

Not the same. Maybe he (Hornqvist) should have taken more time? Especially after the second one. How many has he had?

is it 3?

Hornqvist isn't as fleet of foot, and how he plays the game isn't going to keep him out of scrums, that should be noted, he seems to be in on a every game basis lately.

I don't know, I'm kind of on the fence here. His heart is bigger than anyone's, but there seems to be something off.

Maybe he should stay out of those scrums and just play for awhile.

 

[Deczola73]

Peps.......Horny played really well the past few games and I've seen no drop in play. Same old Hornqvist. I think maybe he costs too much and the deal is a year too long, but he is still playing at same level he has been. Just some bad luck not getting points. Had multiple excellent screens leading to goals in his pointless streak. Just last game he screened on the Schultz goal. His points will come.