Player Discussion: Martin Jones

[Fistfullofbeer]

My vote is stay with Labanc. I think if we can get him on a decent contract we should. There is very few good wingers in this UFA class, and losing his 50 so points would be very hard to replace through UFA or the org. even if his defense is atrocious I still think we’re going to need a guy who can get more points

What is decent in your mind? I just don't see him agreeing to less than 3M-4M AAV. He gave us a big discount last year and probably wants to make up for that.

 

[themelkman]

What is decent in your mind? I just don't see him agreeing to less than 3M-4M AAV. He gave us a big discount last year and probably wants to make up for that.

I don’t think 3 or 3.5 is really much of a problem. Anything over 4 would be bad though, but I think Labancs contract is going to be better value than anything we find in the UFA market this year.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

I don’t think 3 or 3.5 is really much of a problem. Anything over 4 would be bad though, but I think Labancs contract is going to be better value than anything we find in the UFA market this year.

I think the 'value' will be predicated on how you evaluate Labanc.

To me, Labanc is a 3rd line player who is solid on the PP but at best is average defensively. He is not the fastest or most physical of skaters. Him making 3.5M would be no issue IF we already had a 6 top-6 forwards, had plenty cap space available and were just looking to add scoring in the bottom-6. But that is not the case anymore. He has been given a good chance to earn a top-6 role and has just not stepped up.

It is likely that a player like Blichfeld or Chmelevski step up next year and make up part of the contribution that Labanc makes in the bottom-6. If this team has $ to spend, they need to address the top-6 and G situation before worrying about Labanc's contract.

 

[Lebanezer]

All of Martin Jones’ problems are psychological. His mind is broken. He has the yips.

 

[sharski]

All of Martin Jones’ problems are psychological. His mind is broken. He has the yips.

Nabby: “Tell me about your problems with seeing around screens”
Jones: “Well it all started in my childhood...”

 

[hohosaregood]

All of Martin Jones’ problems are psychological. His mind is broken. He has the yips.

I would say he doesn't have the hips personally.

 

[Karl Prime]

I would say he doesn't have the hips personally.

Or the eyes, glove, blocker, legs, or brain.

 

[Lebanezer]

Nabby: “Tell me about your problems with seeing around screens”
Jones: “Well it all started in my childhood...”

I would say he doesn't have the hips personally.

Both correct.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

We should remember that Jones was not drafted. At that time his game must not have
developed to a point where someone would take a chance on him. Good last yr Jr and really
developed his game in the AHL. Stated another way his game must of had some flaws that
keept him from getting drafted.

Be interested to see where he and his game is in 18 months.

 

[Lebanezer]

We should remember that Jones was not drafted. At that time his game must not have
developed to a point where someone would take a chance on him. Good last yr Jr and really
developed his game in the AHL. Stated another way his game must of had some flaws that
keept him from getting drafted.

Be interested to see where he and his game is in 18 months.

He won’t be in the NHL in 18 months.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

He won’t be in the NHL in 18 months.

if he no find his game ASAP i agree!

 

[Nolan11]

He won’t be in the NHL in 18 months.

Assuming Sharks decide to move on from him, what scenarios can we speculate on that would accomplish this? Obviously, we can try to waive him and hope someone takes a flyer on him. Let's assume we ask him to waive NTC to give him shot at playing in the NHL instead of waiving him to play in cuda. do you think we can try trading him to:

NJ for Cory Schneider (2 years remaining at 6M). Buying out Schneider would cost 2M per year for four years (cheaper than buying out Jones)?

To Columbus, who have no goal tenders under contract next year (3 RFAs), for Dubinsky (probably have to add a prospect & a 3rd to Jones....)

Are either destination a potential

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

Assuming Sharks decide to move on from him, what scenarios can we speculate on that would accomplish this? Obviously, we can try to waive him and hope someone takes a flyer on him. Let's assume we ask him to waive NTC to give him shot at playing in the NHL instead of waiving him to play in cuda. do you think we can try trading him to:

NJ for Cory Schneider (2 years remaining at 6M). Buying out Schneider would cost 2M per year for four years (cheaper than buying out Jones)?

To Columbus, who have no goal tenders under contract next year (3 RFAs), for Dubinsky (probably have to add a prospect & a 3rd to Jones....)

Are either destination a potential

Waive him, waive to release, buy out, trade for buy out or deal him.

Problem with tarading him is his value is so low, to netgitive value with his cap hit that no
team will want him. If they do the'll want to send a like player/contract back at us. This is why i
hope we can fix his game resultig in making him tradeable/haveing some value as an NHL player.

I have seen his game better, e.g. when we went to the finals. I'm hoping he can reclaim that
game or most of it.

 

[Lebanezer]

Assuming Sharks decide to move on from him, what scenarios can we speculate on that would accomplish this? Obviously, we can try to waive him and hope someone takes a flyer on him. Let's assume we ask him to waive NTC to give him shot at playing in the NHL instead of waiving him to play in cuda. do you think we can try trading him to:

NJ for Cory Schneider (2 years remaining at 6M). Buying out Schneider would cost 2M per year for four years (cheaper than buying out Jones)?

To Columbus, who have no goal tenders under contract next year (3 RFAs), for Dubinsky (probably have to add a prospect & a 3rd to Jones....)

Are either destination a potential

Columbus' goaltending is performing very well, so I doubt that they would make a deal for Jones. I have thought about trying to trade Jones for Schneider, but since Schneider has the shorter contract I think the Sharks would have to add. Which they could do, but it depends on what Jersey wants.

I'm sure that Doug has permanent feelers out on Jones at this point. I also think that Jones will be waived at some point this season. If the Sharks find themselves in the position to grab another goalie for cheap they will. No one will claim Jones if he is waived because of his cap hit, so he'll spend the next two years in the AHL. Depending on the cap situation after Seattle joins the league, I'm sure the Sharks would consider selling him to Seattle in the way that some teams did to Vegas, or they will just buy him out and deal with the cap hit in the event the cap goes up significantly.

If I were Jones I would want Peter Deboer's heart on a plate. Jones career started off strong with the Sharks, but starting in 2017-18 defensive structure was shown the door. I've been wondering lately that even though all the players say they trust Jones etc. perhaps he doesn't trust them. He may very well be constantly worried that they're going to leave him dead to rights, which they did a lot under Deboer. And he knows how deflating it is when he gives up a "stoppable" goal. So he's constantly focused on not screwing up, and when you constantly focus on screwing up or not screwing up, you inevitably screw up. He's not focusing on the right things because he doesn't want to let his team down. Which he then does. So he's basically just mind f***ed. If Jones has any hope of fixing his career, it's in his best interest, as well as the Sharks, to leave the organization. Unfortunately for him, he's the worst goalie in the NHL.

 

[Levie]

Hot take: keeping Jones will be critical for our rebuild. No other player can guarantee us 1st overalls for their entire contract.

 

[greasysnapper]

Hotter take: The defense needs to play better and the goalie coach position has been filled by people who should not be coaching since 2015. I love Nabby, and I like Hedberg, but neither are good goalie coaches. Want to see how much goalie coaches and management matter? Look at Korn and Greco in NYI, and look at the impact of the loss in Nashville. The Sharks likely aren't getting out of Jones' deal, so why not invest in some really good coaches? That's all they can do in terms of goaltending. That and get Korenar up when the defensive system is fixed.

 

[fasterthanlight]

Hottest take: Jones is actually one of the best goalies in the NHL and it's all Erik Karlsson's fault.

I don't actually believe this.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

Hotter take: The defense needs to play better and the goalie coach position has been filled by people who should not be coaching since 2015. I love Nabby, and I like Hedberg, but neither are good goalie coaches. Want to see how much goalie coaches and management matter? Look at Korn and Greco in NYI, and look at the impact of the loss in Nashville. The Sharks likely aren't getting out of Jones' deal, so why not invest in some really good coaches? That's all they can do in terms of goaltending. That and get Korenar up when the defensive system is fixed.

Interesting discussion of would a better NHL level goalie coach help Jones. I'm not sure how much
coaching NHL goalies get, more at the minor leauge level for sure. It's possible a better NHL goalie coach could help Jones, i'm not sure it will happen with the sharks, or that it's needed really. Whats
needed is for Jones to, 1) see the flaws / issues with his game, 2) take responsibility for them, 3) make some changes in his game. A goalie coach can help with 1) and 2) but only if Jones wants to / believes he needs to make some changes.

 

[matt trick]

Hotter take: The defense needs to play better and the goalie coach position has been filled by people who should not be coaching since 2015. I love Nabby, and I like Hedberg, but neither are good goalie coaches. Want to see how much goalie coaches and management matter? Look at Korn and Greco in NYI, and look at the impact of the loss in Nashville. The Sharks likely aren't getting out of Jones' deal, so why not invest in some really good coaches? That's all they can do in terms of goaltending. That and get Korenar up when the defensive system is fixed.

I don't know that we know Nabby is not a good goalie coach? His entire body of NHL work is dealing with Martin Jones, and a dramatically improved (but still subpar/mediocre) not to mention tiny Aaron Dell.

You mention Korn and Greco, but how many goalie coaches are there at that level? Not many. Nabby spent nearly his career working with Tretiak and Strelow. I like to think some things probably rubbed off. Proximity of a player to elite coaching certainly doesn't guarantee that Nabby will be a good coach, but finding a guy like Korn is remarkably difficult.

Not to put you on the spot, but can you think of any other coaches who are worth that level?

On Jones, the guy was tremendous for a brief time, then got a huge contract then (almost certainly) had a key injury while having also having to deal with reduced pad sizes. He was a young league average (.912 or better) goalie who suddenly became very good in the playoffs, with 2 years of .923+ goaltending before singing his 6(+1) extension. Nabby and Niemi three playoff seasons at .920 between them.

Jones deserved his contract, the fact the world collapsed after signing it is just brutally unfortunate. You could say Wilson should have waited a year, but Jones followed the two strong years with another strong one, so if anything the contract could have been worse. I guess the learning is you simply can't invest in goaltending, even as a contending team? Or perhaps, don't invest in goaltending until you have elite centers, a very good defense, a good coach, and loads of depth?

 

[greasysnapper]

Interesting discussion of would a better NHL level goalie coach help Jones. I'm not sure how much
coaching NHL goalies get, more at the minor leauge level for sure. It's possible a better NHL goalie coach could help Jones, i'm not sure it will happen with the sharks, or that it's needed really. Whats
needed is for Jones to, 1) see the flaws / issues with his game, 2) take responsibility for them, 3) make some changes in his game. A goalie coach can help with 1) and 2) but only if Jones wants to / believes he needs to make some changes.

It's one of the big factors in great play. If you look at any resurgence or career ressurection in a goalie, it'll always be the year they get a new coach. Whether it's Markstrom (this year), Dubnyk (When he left Edmonton to Minny) , Fleury (when he went to Vegas) or any of the other goalies who've ever struggled but then turned into strong goalies, you can almost pinpoint the goalie coach change.

Markstrom's strong play powering Canucks

Revolutionary technique helped Dubnyk rebound

Fleury, Holtby praise Golden Knights goaltending coach in Cup Final

 

[greasysnapper]

I don't know that we know Nabby is not a good goalie coach? His entire body of NHL work is dealing with Martin Jones, and a dramatically improved (but still subpar/mediocre) not to mention tiny Aaron Dell.

You mention Korn and Greco, but how many goalie coaches are there at that level? Not many. Nabby spent nearly his career working with Tretiak and Strelow. I like to think some things probably rubbed off. Proximity of a player to elite coaching certainly doesn't guarantee that Nabby will be a good coach, but finding a guy like Korn is remarkably difficult.

Not to put you on the spot, but can you think of any other coaches who are worth that level?

On Jones, the guy was tremendous for a brief time, then got a huge contract then (almost certainly) had a key injury while having also having to deal with reduced pad sizes. He was a young league average (.912 or better) goalie who suddenly became very good in the playoffs, with 2 years of .923+ goaltending before singing his 6(+1) extension. Nabby and Niemi three playoff seasons at .920 between them.

Jones deserved his contract, the fact the world collapsed after signing it is just brutally unfortunate. You could say Wilson should have waited a year, but Jones followed the two strong years with another strong one, so if anything the contract could have been worse. I guess the learning is you simply can't invest in goaltending, even as a contending team? Or perhaps, don't invest in goaltending until you have elite centers, a very good defense, a good coach, and loads of depth?

Prior, Allaire, Reese are all good. There's a few more but those are the ones I am familiar with. There are some coaches who are worth investing in to. Just off the top of my head Wogtech is a VOLUNTEER coach for the Pioneers in Denver, and I think he's one of the best goalie coaches I've ever seen. He's worked wonders on a lot of kids. Brennan Poderzay is someone on a lot of teams radars for what he's bringing in terms of new ideas to the position. I think he'll get an NHL job in the next 3 years. He's also a volunteer for Mankato. Considering the Sharks ownership and how deep the pockets are, I'd be investing in people like that and building an entire goalie management system like Korn and Greco have in NYI. And I really think you need multiple goalie coaches, and not just for the NHL, and developmental leagues-- some goalies just need instruction in a different way. And not every coach will help every goalie.

 

[matt trick]

Prior, Allaire, Reese are all good. There's a few more but those are the ones I am familiar with. There are some coaches who are worth investing in to. Just off the top of my head Wogtech is a VOLUNTEER coach for the Pioneers in Denver, and I think he's one of the best goalie coaches I've ever seen. He's worked wonders on a lot of kids. Brennan Poderzay is someone on a lot of teams radars for what he's bringing in terms of new ideas to the position. I think he'll get an NHL job in the next 3 years. He's also a volunteer for Mankato. Considering the Sharks ownership and how deep the pockets are, I'd be investing in people like that and building an entire goalie management system like Korn and Greco have in NYI. And I really think you need multiple goalie coaches, and not just for the NHL, and developmental leagues-- some goalies just need instruction in a different way. And not every coach will help every goalie.

Very insightful post!

 

[sirom]

What is decent in your mind? I just don't see him agreeing to less than 3M-4M AAV. He gave us a big discount last year and probably wants to make up for that.

Labanc was a good Barrie Colt in the OHL high octane offence but never developed away from the puck. He is an RFA with arbitration meaning he doesn't control his contract next year an arbitrator will if the two sides can't agree which they won't!

 

[sirom]

Labanc was a good Barrie Colt in the OHL high octane offence but never developed away from the puck. He is an RFA with arbitration meaning he doesn't control his contract next year an arbitrator will if the two sides can't agree which they won't!

To add about him agreeing - he doesn't have to agree to a Shark offer say 2.5M but if he files for arb he has to accept the arb decision and has no recourse after that - he is not a UFA very little leverage except sitting out.

 

[The Ice Hockey Dude]

Best part about all of this, Jones is the new team whipping boy.