Player-Coach Relationships Which Were Strained/Poor (Well-Known and Not Well-Known)

Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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Hey everyone!

I hope everyone has had a good summer professionally and personally and that everyone's health is well!

I was curious to hear/learn of player-coach relationships which were strained/poor that are both well-known and not well-known. If they led to trades/being waived that would be interesting to learn as well.

To throw a couple out there from the hip, obviously Stevie Y and Scotty Bowman got off to a rough start....I also learned in Jeremy Roenick's book that Mike Keenan and Denis Savard didn't get along....Scotty Bowman and Paul Coffey too etc. When Keenan coached in St. Louis he and Brett Hull didn't have thoughts that shared the same galaxy (lol!)

Hope this thread generates some interest as maybe you guys/gals learned of some rifts through local coverage of your favorite teams etc. Look forward to your thoughts as always!-Jim
 

Staniowski

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Jan 13, 2018
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The Maritimes
Badger Bob Johnson and Kent Nilsson.

Well-known.

It's not that they had a bad relationship or that one disliked the other, but Kent frustrated the hell out of Bob during their few years together. Several famous stories.
 

Browntrout

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Apr 2, 2018
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Can we get stories/articles associated with them? Why some of these may be known or famous to some, they might not be to others. I’m a Wings fan and hadn’t heard the Bowman/Coffey one.
 

Normand Lacombe

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Glen Sather and Paul Coffey's relationship soured towards the end of Coffey's time in Edmonton.

Keith Primeau led a revolt against Bill Barber that led to Barber's firing by the Flyers in the summer of 2002.

Patrick Roy and Mario Tremblay never liked each other from the day they first met, which was a decade before the infamous Detroit game.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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One day the Flames coach was drawing up a play on the board, illustrating to Makarov how to position himself. Suddenly, Makarov grabbed the chalk, crossed everything out and started making his own diagrams. “Tikhonov bad guy, good coach,” he said to Crisp (in reference to the late Soviet bench boss). “You? Good guy, bad coach.” Crisp, who had led the Flames to a Stanley Cup the year before, said Makarov, who played in the Soviet Union on the KLM line with Vladimir Krutov and Igor Larionov, probably had more talent than anybody he had ever coached.
“But I’d played for Scotty Bowman and Fred Shero, two of the best coaches in the business,” he said. ”It wasn’t as if I just fell off a turnip truck.”
 

VanIslander

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Steve Shutt was Bowman's "whipping boy", as described by a Habs teammate. Shutt was often out of shape and if out of position was criticized harshly by Scotty. Players felt sorry for Steve.

In fact, there's a famous quote by a Habs player that they hated Bowman every day of the year except the one they hoisted the cup.
 

brachyrynchos

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Ted Sator NYR. His coaching style rubbed alot of players the wrong way. Mark Pavelich said openly something like 'he doesn't know what the hell he's doing', the strained relationship led to Pavelich leaving the team for Europe. Curt Giles, Nick Fotiu, and Pierre Larouche are among some of the Rangers who had problems with Sator.
 

Florbalista

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One day the Flames coach was drawing up a play on the board, illustrating to Makarov how to position himself. Suddenly, Makarov grabbed the chalk, crossed everything out and started making his own diagrams. “Tikhonov bad guy, good coach,” he said to Crisp (in reference to the late Soviet bench boss). “You? Good guy, bad coach.” Crisp, who had led the Flames to a Stanley Cup the year before, said Makarov, who played in the Soviet Union on the KLM line with Vladimir Krutov and Igor Larionov, probably had more talent than anybody he had ever coached.
“But I’d played for Scotty Bowman and Fred Shero, two of the best coaches in the business,” he said. ”It wasn’t as if I just fell off a turnip truck.”

Where is this from? I want more.
 
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The Macho King

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I think this is pretty much Bowman and everyone that ever played for him.

Vinny and Torts bumped heads more than a few times.
 

Theokritos

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“Tikhonov bad guy, good coach,” he said to Crisp

Speaking of Tikhonov: his relationship to many players (most prominently Fetisov and Larionov, but also Mogilny) was famously strained. You know it's bad when a paper prints an open letter against you written and signed by one of your own players (Larionov).

Before Tikhonov, Anatoly Tarasov also had his share of conflicts with players:

-His relation with Vselvolod Bobrov was notoriously difficult. The two couldn't stand each other. Some of the stories border on the comical: for example, once the two of them were blocking each other with their cars for a prolonged time because neither was willing to make way for the other.

-In late 1953, Tarasov's first stint with the Soviet national team ended prematurely when his training methods left the team so exhausted and demoralized that the Soviet hockey federation felt prompted to release him.

-In late 1960 Tarasov was sacked as coach of CSKA Moscow after several players (including star defenceman Ivan Tregubov) had turned against him. He regained the job one year later.

-In autumn 1967 Alexander Almetov quit hockey at the age of 27 because he's had enough of Tarasov.
 
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Theokritos

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Where is this from? I want more.

According to Eric Duhatschek:
General manager Cliff Fletcher remembered being in coach Terry Crisp's office, in Makarov's first year, as the two kept trying - and not having much success - asking him to buy in to what Crisp was selling defensively.
According to Fletcher, Crisp was furiously diagramming a play on the board, showing Makarov where he wanted him to be on the ice. Makarov took the chalk away from Crisp and crossed everything out and started diagramming his own plays, just as furiously. Finally, Makarov paused, turned to Crisp and said: "Tikhonov. Bad guy. Good coach. You? Good guy. Bad coach."
 

VanIslander

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Tikhonov was incredibly successful but universally disliked: so was Bowman.

Tikhonov began in Latvia, where he coached a young (since-then all-time great) Helmuts Balderis, both of whom were called to Moscow after his there-innovative roll-four-lines high energy line up achieved success against the Soviets' best.

Tikhonov, like Bowman, was incredibly successful, though Tikhonov borrowed a lot of Tarasov ideas about puck possession, training variety and reliance on a defensive center and rushing dman.

Fetisov LOATHED Tikhonov but Larionov has admitted the coach got the best out of them.

Makarov respected Tikhonov even though of course he didn't like him. The passing game and commitment to short shifts and HOLDING NOT DUMPING the puck was something that served Makarov well when he was re-united with Larionov in San Jose with late 1980's Soviet world championship all-star goalie Arturs Irbe, the trio responsible for the NHL expansion Sharks' 8th seed's EPIC first round upset of 1st seed Detroit Red Wings! I was 25 years old when that happened, just over a quarter century ago.
 
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Theokritos

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Larionov has admitted the coach got the best out of them.

Larionov has compared Tikhonov (without bringing up his name) with the tyrannical teacher from the movie Whiplash.

Larionov said:
I didn’t understand how a film about a jazz band had anything to do with me. Then the drummer student in the movie messes up a rhythm and his crazy conductor throws a chair at his head. A little later on, he messes up the rhythm again and the conductor makes him repeat it over and over again for hours. The kid is sweating and his hands are bleeding and when he finally gets it right, he collapses on the drum kit. Then the teacher just walks out of the room without saying anything.

People kept asking me, “Is this what life was like as a hockey player in the Soviet Union?”
“No, not at all,” I tell them. “In the movie, the student eventually gets to go back to his nice apartment and take his girlfriend out on a date. We did not have it so lucky. They sent us right back to the barracks.” Though I never had a chair thrown at me. A puck or two maybe.

Source
 

Theokritos

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Apr 6, 2010
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I want more.

Here's one from an interview with Makarov on his short stint in Dallas:

After the unpleasant contract history with San Jose, I decided to finish my career. Before the World Cup of 96, I was coaching our national team. Unexpectedly, on one of our practices the general manager of "Dallas, Bob Gainey, came to me and said: "Sergei, you, I see, are in excellent shape. I want to sign a contract with you. You could teach the young some lessons." I thought about it and decided to go to Texas.
- Over there, if I am not mistaken, coach Ken Hitchcock was in charge, now successfully working in Philadelphia.
Yes, he is a very original character. Soviet temper ... And immediately upon arrival I understood that he will not let me play.
- Why?
Hitchcock could not stand Europeans. Plus everything on his team went according to scheme. During one of the first days, he began drawing me some kind of diagrams: how to go around players, where to be open, where to dump the puck. It was ridiculous ...
I tolerated it, tolerated, but then I could not anymore and explained to Hitchcock how everything is done in the actual game by the name of hockey. It seemed to me that my teammates started paying attention to me, see me almost as if I were a coach. Hitchcock, evidently, complained to the general manager. In the end, by mutual agreement of both sides, the contract was terminated, and my career ended.
 
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VanIslander

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^^^^^ look at the last post...

TWO sides of objections to Hitchcock:

1. Sergei Makarov will not dump the puck away when he gains the offensive zone;

2. Brett Hull will not backcheck deep defensively and dump the puck offensively;

But...

Hitch's style is great, just different from theirs.

My home was Kamloops when Hitch led the local juniors team Blazers to six divisional titles and two Memorial Cup tourneys based on dump-and-chase aggressive forecheck recovery (Pat Burns & Ted Nolan had NHL success with this style).

Makarov abhorred not passing.
Hull hated not taking the shot.

Two ends of a puck possession game Hitch didn't coach.
 
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Theokritos

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^^^^^ look at the last post...

Yes, the differences in the basic approach are obvious. Even Larionov's article reflects them:

If you watch video of us back then, it barely resembles the way the NHL is played today. It’s more similar to how Barcelona play soccer. Our philosophy was about puck control, improvisation, and constant movement. Now, the game is all about “north-south,” chip-and-chase. We moved side-to-side and swooped around the ice looking for open spaces. A backward pass was just as good as a forward pass. (...)
The problem is more philosophical and starts way before players get to the NHL. It’s easier to destroy than to create. As a coach, it’s easier to tell your players to suffocate the opposing team and not turn the puck over. (...) Many young players who are intelligent and can see the game four moves ahead are not valued. They’re told “simple, simple, simple.”
That mentality is kind of boring. Nobody wants to get fired. Nobody wants to get sent down to the minors. If you look at the coaches in Juniors and minor league hockey, many of them were not skill players. It’s a lot of former enforcers and grinders who take these coaching jobs. Naturally, they tell their players to be just like them. Their players are 17, 18 years old — younger than I was when I joined the Red Army team. Say what you want about the Whiplash mentality (or the Soviet mentality), but if coaches are going to push kids at that age, why are they pushing them to play a simple game? Why aren’t coaches pushing them to create a masterpiece?
 

VanIslander

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My OPPF team on the ATD sub-board here at Hfboards was built on the Soviet style.

Coach Tarasov, plus his top player Firsov, passing wingers Bathgate, Selanne, Apps, St. Louis, passing yet Soviet-demanding-pivot-defending Nighbor, Gilmour and Toews, with Newsy Lalonde as a superstar puckhound who would be allowed to take it to the house, as Tarasov was all about allowing creativity offensively. Oh, and Tarasov has said the Soviet style demands perfection from the goalie, so my first pick was Hasek.
 

BadgerBruce

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Yes, the differences in the basic approach are obvious. Even Larionov's article reflects them:
Thanks for sharing this, Theo. I was unaware of Larionov’s perspective and find it fascinating because even today the conflict between “keep it simple” and “create” exists in junior and youth hockey.
 

Gambitman

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Corey Sarich in an interview on Fan960 talked at length of his disdain for Bob Hartley
 

Robert Gordon Orr

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The War with Brophy

This is the headline in a 13 page long chapter found in Miroslav Frycer’s autobiography.
Frycer played eight seasons in the NHL, six of them with Toronto during the 1980s.
He scored 330 points in 415 NHL-games.

Frycer wrote that Brophy had a friendly attitude towards him when he was an assistant coach to Dan Maloney, but that it all changed when Brophy became the head coach (for Toronto).

”After about five games he stripped me of my ”A” that was given to me at the start of the season, and gave it to Tom Fergus. I was told that it would be beneficial if the ”A” could be rotated among the players. That didn’t bother me at all, it was just a letter, and Fergie was a great guy.”

”Then Brophy came up with the idea that I should get into more fights during games, and had me pummeling a punching bag for half an hour after each training, this bothered me a lot more.”

”I mean, he wanted the most productive player to turn into a fighter. "Hey listen, Johnny, you know me, and what kind of hockey player I am. I am willing to drop my gloves against anybody, but I am more valuable to the team in other ways", I explained.”

“With this our war began. Brophy made me his own personal punching bag, and began to hinder my development as a player, whenever he could.”


“Brophy didn’t like my playing style that I played together with Peter Ihnacak. We tried to be creative, criss-crossing, attacking in different way than the Canadian players, and it worked well. But in Brophy’s eyes this was “European S**t Hockey”. He wanted us to shoot/dump the puck along the boards. I barely got the puck on my own blue line before I heard him shout from the bench, “Dump the puck in.””

“What the heck, why should I play like this? " "I’ve played in the NHL for five years, and I don’t just give the puck away, if I don’t have to". "I tried to explain this to him, all in vain. Brophy wouldn’t budge”

“Another novelty that he introduced was that we had to weigh in before each game. Why not? We are pros after all, and the coach have the right to be in control. The problem was that Brophy had no clue whatsoever. This was a bit more advanced than his EHL days when a bunch of lumberjacks just used their sticks on each other. He had no advanced schooling to be a coach, and was clueless how many percent muscles and body fat we should have proportionately to our body mass/height. He gave each player a number and we were not allowed to get over it, period.”

After a game during breakfast at Marriott hotel.

“I sat at a table with Iha (Peter Ihnacak) and had a toast while drinking coffee and reading the newspapers. Suddenly, dead silence, what’s up? And I raised my head – Across me was Brophy". “I know that you did it on purpose last night. Before the game you had hookers in your room and being drunk.” My blood pressure began to rise, because it was all hogwash. But I tried to hold back. Don’t let him provoke me I told myself - please just shut it John.”

“But he continued, telling me that I was always faking everything, that I was lazy, and that they lost because of me. That got me over the top, I stood up, grabbed him by his neck and shouted, “say one more word and I’ll punch you to la-la land.”

“I couldn’t care less if he had any boxing skills or not. After that I took my keys and approached our management at another table. I’m going up (to the room) and I’ll call a cab. You in the meantime will fix me a plane ticket to Toronto. I’m not going to play for this moron.”


“They clearly didn’t expect that. “Mirko, don’t overreact, everything will be ok, we have an important game ahead of us.” “I didn’t budge though, I flew home and the rest of the guys flew to Philadelphia, only to lose 1-6.”

“Earlier I had coaches that I didn’t agree with all the time, and that’s part of sports. I didn’t see eye-to-eye with [Michel] Bergeron [Quebec], but I respected him for what he had done in the NHL. [Mike] Nykoluk [Toronto] was not much of a coach, but he was a good guy. [Dan] Maloney [Toronto] also had his moments, but was always fair. Brophy was a different kind of breed altogether.”

“Brophy’s vocabulary was “exemplary”. To him we were just a bunch of motherf***ers and bastards. I would have a more intelectual conversation with someone who finished fifth grade in school than with Brophy. Brophy’s basic word was f**k in all shape and forms. Once when we lost a game against Minnesota he managed to get the word in 57 times in a span of six minutes during an interview. To me, who had played for educated gentlemen as Ludek Bukac and Pavel Wohl it was quite a cultural change.”

“Brophy was also like a lunatic in the dressing room. He could enter the room during an intermission, totally out of his mind, ripping off his jacket and shred it to pieces. Or he would take off his watch and trash it against the floor. Trash cans flew around the dressing rooms constantly and we didn’t even raise an eyebrow. I also remember how he came into our dressing room once with blood trickling down his hand, just because he tried to tear down a plexiglass partition while being in a state of rage. In Los Angeles, he once was hit in the head by a puck, his grey hair filled with blood, but he never noticed and kept on shouting, being in total trance.”

“Brophy with his almost perverse style of coaching most definitely didn’t mean any harm. He loved hockey and wanted to win, no one can take that away from him. He wanted to get the best out of us and get us going, but he chose the worst possible path for that. Especially the young guys were not prepared for that. Al Iafrate was a nervous wreck before each game and I had to calm down Gary Leeman to ignore the madman and concentrate on his own game instead.”

“Brophy was old school even by NHL standards in the 1980s. The game was heading in a totally different direction, where Edmonton ruled with fast and technical hockey. But Brophy still wanted to play the type of hockey that ruled in the lower leagues. To provoke your opponent, put fear in him and beat him up". "Knock him off his feet, let him end up in a wheelchair!" "With these instructions he sent his big guys to the ice.”


“When we let in a lot of goals from the goal crease area, he gave us lessons on how to avoid it. He used Chris Kotsopoulos and Val James, a big black guy who joined us from the farm team occasionally, to demonstrate how to defend. Brophy grabbed the stick with both hands and chopped them in their kidneys until they fell down, and again, and again. “if you don’t master this, you don’t have any reason to be out on the ice", he shouted.”

“One of our new players (1987/88) was Dave Semenko who used to be Wayne Gretzky’s bodyguard in Edmonton and a great fighter. He was a tower of a man, but a very kind person who wouldn’t hurt a fly off the ice. Semenko was a humorous and intelligent guy. I really liked him and we got along very well. As a player Semenko was exactly Brophy’s kind of guy. At least it seemed that way.”

“Brophy envisioned that Semenko would beat everyone up. Dave however was not a bad player at all and wanted to finish his career by playing real hockey. In Edmonton he protected mainly Gretzky and didn’t fight unnecessarily. When Wayne was hit or taken advantage of, it was Semenko’s task to set things straight so it wouldn’t happen again. He gave his star some much needed space on the ice. Here Brophy wanted him to attack the opponents star players. This was against Dave’s code of honor. Get back at someone?, fight another tough guy?, ok, that’s all fine. If it helps the team to get going, why not? But he refused to fight without a reason and just be a hired gun for Brophy.”

“It didn’t take long before Dave asked me over a couple of beers, “Oh my god, what kind of lunatic is coaching us?” “In Edmonton he was used to winning and comfort, in Toronto he didn’t find either of those things. After another confrontation with Brophy, he decided to quit hockey, even before the season finished.”

After getting traded from Toronto

“Before training camp I stopped by Maple Leafs Garden to get my equipment. As I walked in there, I bumped into Brophy. Our farewell was short but honest.”
“F**k You !”
“F**k You !”
 
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Robert Gordon Orr

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Dec 3, 2009
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Jeremy Roenick had a few good stories on Mike Keenan in his autobiography - J.R.: My Life as the Most Outspoken, Fearless, and Hard-Hitting Man in Hockey


Playing for coach Mike Keenan in Chicago was like camping on the side of an active volcano. You had to accept the reality that he erupted regularly and that there was always a danger of being caught in his lava flow. He was a tyrant, a schoolyard bully, an oldschool coach who tried to motivate players through intimidation, belittlement and fear.

The veterans on the team didn't fear Keenan; they merely despised him, and I believe Mike liked it that way. He was always hard on players, like a drill sergeant trying to ready recruits for the dangers ahead. Dealing with Mike's rants was one of the job requirements for being a Blackhawk. One night, the Blackhawks were playing in St. Louis, and Keenan became enraged about our effort to the point that he ripped out seven ceiling tiles in the visitors' dressing room.

Keenan was a screamer who thought nothing of singling out one of his players for a personal attack, just to let the team know how upset he was with how the team was performing. Over the course of the season, Keenan had accused most of his players of being "chickenshit" or "an embarrassment to your family."

"You don't deserve to be in the f***in' league," Keenan would often scream at you. "You should be ashamed of the way you are playing."

Mercy was not usually on the table when Keenan had a lock on a player. Some of Iron Mike's most memorable tirades came against Dave Manson, a defenseman who played for the Blackhawks early in my career. Manson was a skilled player with a heavy slapshot and a combative personality. Once teammates realized how quickly Manson's temper could boil over, they started calling him "Charlie Manson," in reference to the convicted murderer Charles Manson, who had those scary, crazed-looking eyes. When Dave Manson lost control, he looked as if he might kill you.

Dave was a tough competitor who had amassed 352 penalty minutes in my first season with the Blackhawks in 1988–89. During one game, Keenan had determined that Manson was responsible for everything wrong with the Blackhawks that night.

"You're f***ing brutal," Keenan screamed at Manson between periods. "You are the reason we're losing this game."

Manson had his skates unlaced and his jersey off when Keenan began unloading on him with this verbal barrage. Initially, Manson took his medicine, like we all did at various times. But during Keenan's rant, Manson snapped. He stood, yanked off his shoulder pads and flung them across the locker room, just missing Keenan as he ducked out of the way. That was merely the first salvo of Manson's attack. As the pads were launched, Manson began running, in his skates, directly at Keenan.

Keenan fled out the door with Manson on his tail. We all scurried to the door to witness the outcome. You can imagine how f***ing comical it was to see Keenan sprinting down a hallway, in the bowels of Chicago Stadium, with Manson in determined pursuit. As he chased Keenan, sparks were leaping off Manson's skates as the blades scraped across the cement. If Manson hadn't lost his balance while trying to run on skates, he might have pummelled Keenan.

The strangest aspect of the repeated Keenan–Manson confrontations was the truth that Keenan liked Manson. He liked Manson's toughness and his aggressiveness. He was big, he was strong, and he had a mean streak. Keenan would have loved to have a roster full of players with Manson's ability. Keenan pushed on Manson because he believed Manson had more to give. Manson had licence to scream at Keenan, to chase him down the hallway, even to physically assault Keenan because Keenan liked his potential. In always hollering at Manson, Keenan's objective was to make him play every game at his highest level to prove that Keenan was wrong about him.

Keenan always tried to stay one step ahead of his players, particularly with regard to controlling our lives through curfews and practices and so forth. It's said that Keenan learned all of his tricks to control players from the great Scotty Bowman when Keenan was an American Hockey League coach in Rochester. At the time, Bowman was in charge of Rochester's parent club in Buffalo.

When we were on the road, Keenan would give the bellman a hat and tell him to ask every player who came in after curfew to sign it. Keenan could then inspect the hat the next day and know who had violated curfew. Other times, he would sit in the lobby reading a book and catch his drunken players stumbling in at three in the morning.

I hope my readers don't get the impression that I didn't like Keenan. I love the man for molding me into the player I became. He was Dr. Frankenstein, and I was his creation. He was a father figure for me, and he nurtured my game through a tough-love approach. We fought regularly in my years in Chicago. More than once, I screamed, "Go f*** yourself, Mike."

Mike wanted the fires always burning in his dressing room. He wanted everyone always mad at him, and he liked it when players held each other accountable. There were some fistfights in the dressing room as players fought, not like sworn enemies but like brothers who would still love each other when the scrap was over.

Today's NHL dressing rooms are tame by comparison to what Chicago's dressing room was like back then. Today's players don't confront each other the way we did. In my opinion, today's players are too touchy about criticism. When you came into our dressing room under Mike Keenan, it was like joining a house of gladiators. There would be pain and suffering. But in that environment, I matured into a very good player, and the Blackhawks became a quality team.
 

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