GWT: PL Matchweek (mostly) 8

[Blender]

Some of this information is misleading. Keita, Matip, Shaqiri, Milner, Gomez, Tsmikas, Henderson, Alisson, and Mane (though it was just dead leg) have all been out at some point this season. There's only been 8 matches in the league.

Sure, some of these would happen anyhow. Additionally, there's no question that there are other injuries that are not disclosed, and are more of the type like Mane had, with dead leg, or stuff that they're playing through. I'm also not going to argue with the fact that Liverpool has played a brutal number of matches. Especially over the last two or three seasons for many of these players. But, it's no shock that hamstring, thigh, muscle type of injuries are popping up with more regularity, and that's clearly due to the lack of a preseason, and the frequency of matches.

I don't know if 5 subs, as to 3 subs solves it, because Klopp and Pep didn't even use all 3 as it stood, but it would allow him to give a planned rest like he has in the CL to players. Give top guys 60 minutes. Pull 3 guys off if you're up 2-3.

No, you misread it. It's specifically stating who is injured as of today, the date is right on the chart and the title clearly indicates that.

 

[Chimaera]

Finally some actual data, thanks.

Now, will 5 subs make a big difference, or do clubs need to start rotating their starting 11 more?

Rationally, it would make some difference, because you would see what Liverpool did in the CL. Play the top players 60 minutes, get them rest. If you have that happen in the EPL, you play your top players a fixed set of minutes, and then get them rest. If you're up 2 goals, you get players out, while still having some subs left. You maybe start a Curtis Jones, let him go 45, and then rotate in a player who you are managing minutes. You maybe play a Rhys Williams or Nathan Phillips for 45, and manage Matip's minutes. But with 3 subs, if you plan a change at 60, and then have someone pull up lame, all of a sudden you're down to 2 tactical subs, and players who might need a rest won't get it.

 

[Chimaera]

No, you misread it. It's specifically stating who is injured as of today, the date is right on the chart and the title clearly indicates that.

I realize this. But you were trying to argue that the list of just 4 guys out is a justification that they don't need 5 subs compared with other clubs in Europe.

 

[Jersey Fresh]

I realize this. But you were trying to argue that the list of just 4 guys out is a justification that they don't need 5 subs compared with other clubs in Europe.

I don't think Blender was saying that, but I certainly was, and I'm still not convinced that 5 subs versus 3 would have any serious impact on injuries. I wasn't referencing Liverpool specifically at any point, but as it relates to them, two of your serious injuries have nothing to do with the schedule (Van Dijk and Thiago) and guys like Matip, Keita, and Oxlade-Chamberlain have histories of injuries. It'd be a much different conversation from Klopp's perspective if those two were still in the side.

I was looking for data on muscle injuries in other top European leagues with 5 subs, but haven't come across anything yet.

Also, just reading your comment again, not sure if I'm misreading what you were saying, but my initial comment was comparing injuries in the PL between clubs in Europe and clubs that are not, not against other clubs in Europe.

 

[Blender]

I realize this. But you were trying to argue that the list of just 4 guys out is a justification that they don't need 5 subs compared with other clubs in Europe.

I didn't say anything like this.

 

[Chimaera]

Admittedly, a Jersey fresh and a guy with a devils symbol run together more often than not on no sleep with a newborn. That said, the point of saying it still stands, it’s been more than four guys out.

 

[Havre]

Spurs were playing weekend Tuesday, Thursday and weekend. Obviously players will get injured.

In general there are too many games, but this season is just silly. Why we are playing the League Cup I will never understand. No argument there from me. But we all knew it was going to be this way - and there are ways to prepare. Liverpool gambled. Teams like Chelsea and Spurs stacked up. We'll see at the end who made the right decision. I'm not ruling Liverpool out of course, but I am surprised they didn't bolster up. Not necessarily spending a lot, but just bringing in numbers considering the circumstances.

 

[AB13]

Arteta has helped the defensive structure and I also agree that he has stopped this club from capitulating as well. However, we're playing too defensive at home which is making our entire tactics way too slow to break down counterattacking clubs. Like I said last week, we need to try a 4-4-2 with Laca and Auba on top in Europa and see what happens.

Don't like the 442 idea, we need 3 men in midfield at all times, being overrun in midfield is an enormous issue. A 4231 with a creative player as a number 10 in a free role between the lines is needed. Try ESR/Willock until January, then sign an attacking midfielder or bloody register your best player in the squad.

 

[bluesfan94]

Don't like the 442 idea, we need 3 men in midfield at all times, being overrun in midfield is an enormous issue. A 4231 with a creative player as a number 10 in a free role between the lines is needed. Try ESR/Willock until January, then sign an attacking midfielder or bloody register your best player in the squad.

I'm still fully on board with a 3-5-2:

Aubameyang - Pepe
Tierney - Partey - Willock/ESR/Ceballos - Xhaka/ElNeny - Bellerin
Gabriel - Saliba/Holding - Luiz
Leno​

I would be interested to see Saka and Nelson play in the Willock role. The backups would be

Nketiah - Lacazette
Saka - AMN - ESR/Willock/Nelson - ElNeny/Xhaka - Soares
Mari/Kolasinac - Holding/Saliba - Chambers
Runnarsson
​

I also don't mind a diamond 4-4-2 with strikers being instructed to play in the half spaces. Something like:

Aubameyang - Pepe
Willock/Saka/Nelson/ESR
Partey/Ceballos - Xhaka/Elneny
Partey/Elneny
Tierney - Gabriel - Holding/Saliba - Bellerin
Leno​

 

[AB13]

I'm still fully on board with a 3-5-2:

Aubameyang - Pepe
Tierney - Partey - Willock/ESR/Ceballos - Xhaka/ElNeny - Bellerin
Gabriel - Saliba/Holding - Luiz
Leno​

I would be interested to see Saka and Nelson play in the Willock role. The backups would be

Nketiah - Lacazette
Saka - AMN - ESR/Willock/Nelson - ElNeny/Xhaka - Soares
Mari/Kolasinac - Holding/Saliba - Chambers
Runnarsson
​

I also don't mind a diamond 4-4-2 with strikers being instructed to play in the half spaces. Something like:

Aubameyang - Pepe
Willock/Saka/Nelson/ESR
Partey/Ceballos - Xhaka/Elneny
Partey/Elneny
Tierney - Gabriel - Holding/Saliba - Bellerin
Leno​

A 352 absolutely suits the squad and would allow for pragmatism against big teams. It can easially transition into a 442 in possession. I would prefer a 4231 against teams that sit deep though, with a double pivot and clear cut number 10 in a free role. Just keep it simple and play your best players in their best positions.

Leno

Ainsley - Saliba - Gabriel - Tierney

Partey - Xhaka

Pepe - Willock/ESR/Nelson - Nelson/ Saka/Martinelli

Aubameyang

 

[bluesfan94]

Starting AMN over Bellerin is absolutely not playing your best players in their best positions.

 

[robertmac43]

Starting AMN over Bellerin is absolutely not playing your best players in their best positions.

Bellerin hasn't even been bad. I would even argue he has been one of the more consistent players since the Covid restart.

 

[Havre]

I think I saw Maguire having more expected goals than Auba this season

Early days for Arteta of course. Things can change. He came in mid season. All teams are struggling a bit to get going with Covid-19. In that sense Arteta is probably the manager in the most difficult position of all. Trying to get a big club going without any real time to get some proper training sessions going for weeks at the time. I'll judge him come next season.

If I should criticize him now it would be that I think he is overthinking things. For the reasons I have mentioned I think he would have been better off playing it simpler. Put your best player in a situation to succeed would be a good start. Take it step by step.

 

[maclean]

If we start with the "Arteta out" at this point, we may as well move to the Serie A. As much as that game was a disappointment, I didn't think we looked *as bad* as we have on many occasions in the recent past. It was more a team that got outplayed rather than a team doing everything in its power to foment its own downfall. Now that's not what you want facing Villa at home, but I do take some solace that Villa trampled Liverpool earlier in the season as well. It's a tribute to them more than anything, though of course we need to be better.

 

[AB13]

If we start with the "Arteta out" at this point, we may as well move to the Serie A. As much as that game was a disappointment, I didn't think we looked *as bad* as we have on many occasions in the recent past. It was more a team that got outplayed rather than a team doing everything in its power to foment its own downfall. Now that's not what you want facing Villa at home, but I do take some solace that Villa trampled Liverpool earlier in the season as well. It's a tribute to them more than anything, though of course we need to be better.

Not sure about Arteta out just yet, I would not go that far, but we need to allow ourselves to criticize him heavily, since he is clearly not maximizing what he has to work with.

At the moment, it is clear Arteta is holding us back from scoring goals. I get that we don't have a dynamic creator, but Arteta's rigidity and inability to let his attacking players just be loose up top is now eating into our goals and that's eating into our points. Either he will learn and adapt or guess what? He can find another job. There can be no more Papa Wenger Love In's at this club... either get the job done or hit the streets pal. I mean Emery finished two points off third in his first season with a worse squad, and was sacked when we were in fifth ( rightly so).

Arteta needs to look no further than Dean Smith for inspiration. Aston Villa are so effective in attack because they rely on natural dynamics as opposed to rigid play and set patterns, which is an old school approach that Ferguson used to like.Their success is all about the balance Dean Smith has afforded his group of players, the freedom the players are afforded allow them to flourish. At times Villa will lack compactness in defensive transition and their defensive shape won't be great because of their emphasis on natural balance in the final third but the pro's outweigh the con's massively.

 

[Havre]

I think Dean Smith is a good and bad example. Clearly we didn't see a free scoring Villa last season. It's not only about the coach, but also about the players. So it is good in the sense that you need time - and the right players.

"Old school" doesn't have to be negative of course, but apart from last season Smith has delivered solid attacking football for some years now. Of course Arteta can be that kind of coach as well - who knows, but Smith has quietly done a good job for some years now. He just got the most boring name ever - not a sexy foreigner.

 

[maclean]

Not sure about Arteta out just yet, I would not go that far, but we need to allow ourselves to criticize him heavily, since he is clearly not maximizing what he has to work with.

At the moment, it is clear Arteta is holding us back from scoring goals. I get that we don't have a dynamic creator, but Arteta's rigidity and inability to let his attacking players just be loose up top is now eating into our goals and that's eating into our points. Either he will learn and adapt or guess what? He can find another job. There can be no more Papa Wenger Love In's at this club... either get the job done or hit the streets pal. I mean Emery finished two points off third in his first season with a worse squad, and was sacked when we were in fifth ( rightly so).

Arteta needs to look no further than Dean Smith for inspiration. Aston Villa are so effective in attack because they rely on natural dynamics as opposed to rigid play and set patterns, which is an old school approach that Ferguson used to like.Their success is all about the balance Dean Smith has afforded his group of players, the freedom the players are afforded allow them to flourish. At times Villa will lack compactness in defensive transition and their defensive shape won't be great because of their emphasis on natural balance in the final third but the pro's outweigh the con's massively.

Shoring up our defence was a necessary step though. It was in shambles. Now we have to see if he can build on that. I'm OK with some rigidity off the top if it allows us to loosen up subsequently. The old notion of "you have to learn to the rules to be able to break them". But if we end up stagnating in this state, then that's bad. I'm willing however to give him a bit more a chance still though because you can only chew up and spit out managers so much

 

[robertmac43]

Not sure about Arteta out just yet, I would not go that far, but we need to allow ourselves to criticize him heavily, since he is clearly not maximizing what he has to work with.

Didn't you go that far literally 2 days ago?

 

[AB13]

Didn't you go that far literally 2 days ago?

Yeah, but just in reactionary frustration during the game. If he doesn't improve soon he does have to go though. He has changed his system in the past so hopefully he can adapt again.

 

[robertmac43]

Yeah, but just in reactionary frustration during the game. If he doesn't improve soon he does have to go though. He has changed his system in the past so hopefully he can adapt again.

Fair enough!

I agree things need to change in terms the system and structure. That being said I don't think Arteta should be on the chopping block just yet. It's been said on here before but the circumstances Arteta has had to navigate since taking the job have been difficult and unpredictable. He has shown promising signs over his short stint here and I think it's better for the team to give him time than to find another manager. Bringing in someone new is just adding more unknowns to a club that needs some consistency!

 

[Say Hey Kid]

"Jose Mourinho can guide Tottenham to the Premier League title, says Paul Merson

Tottenham briefly went top of the Premier League on Sunday for the first time in six years thanks to a 1-0 win at West Brom and Paul Merson thinks the north London club can challenge for this season's title with Jose Mourinho at the helm; Merson also backs Chelsea to compete for the league" Jose Mourinho can guide Tottenham to the Premier League title, says Paul Merson

 

[Havre]

Merson

I don't think Spurs will win it, but if they can have the same luck as they did against Burnley and WBA then anything is possible (obviously Spurs were unlucky earlier against WH, Newcastle and maybe deserved a draw against Everton).

Wouldn't be surprised if a handful of teams are within reach of the title come spring. Spurs could be one of them - especially if they can survive the very tough schedule they got over the next 1.5 months. Quite sensational really playing City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Leicester and Wolverhampton in 1.5 months. Away to Crystal Palace as well - which is hardly easy. Not that it matters much as you got to play all teams, but with a handful of losses in those games and Spurs are out of the title race - and might even have some catching up to do for top 4.

 

[Gecklund]

Finally some actual data, thanks.

Now, will 5 subs make a big difference, or do clubs need to start rotating their starting 11 more?

Both answers are yes for big clubs. Smaller clubs maybe not as much because of their lack of depth but they also play less games.

 

[Blender]

Both answers are yes for big clubs. Smaller clubs maybe not as much because of their lack of depth but they also play less games.

Manchester City for example has 4 players that have played all 7 of their games, 2 that have played 6, and 4 that have played 5. Liverpool have 5 that have played all 8 of their games, 2 that have played 7, and 5 that have played 6.

Both were making a lot of noise about 5 subs, and maybe they are right, but they also aren't rotating their squad as much as they could, which would be a huge start if they are concerned about fatigue.

 

[John Price]