GWT: PL matchweek 4

[TheMoreYouKnow]

I'm familiar with the article and similar things said by players in similar situations. And it's an easy view to arrive at if you're in their position. But it's a complex situation and there's a lot more to it here, too. Ozil was criticized widely even before the World Cup when it looked like they could win the whole thing with him playing a starring role, so it wasn't really related to losing or bad performances in itself.

Now Sane is a totally different story anyway. He's half-German and his dad is a pretty well-known former footballer who once played with Jogi Löw for SC Freiburg and is sort of a 90s nostalgia cult figure as well. So for one he didn't grow up in especially difficult circumstances and also is not really seen through the political lens of migration and migrant integration. In fact, I've rarely heard a bad word said about Sane. A lot of people thought he should have been on the World Cup team.

There is the issue that he was seen as a guy who didn't really quite fit into Löw's squad or system. In his appearances he didn't really look like he was playing well within the team's structure. Kroos' criticism is interesting simply because again it puts his non-nomination into context. He wouldn't be the first flashy winger who doesn't want to sacrifice his playing style for a team system. He also wouldn't be the first young millionaire in sports to get carried away with the personal glory aspect of it. He's young, he can learn..but he may not if senior players calling him out are just dismissed as racists.

 

[Evilo]

Interesting? I find Kroos' comments disrespectful, full of himself and the exact contrary than what a leader should be.

Going out in public about teammates is just basic education. Something Kroos lacks apparently. That's Mattheus level really.

 

[YNWA14]

I find it amusing some of the people who find this kind of thing disrespectful, given their own natures.

I don't think that Kroos needs to be doing this in public; but I guess the possibility is there that they've tried to get through to him through other channels and it's not working. Though I'm not sure that's the case here, but Kroos doesn't seem to be the only one with issues with Sane. Talented as he may be it makes me think back to the Mourinho quote about how young players are now vs. in the past and how they need to be handled.

Either way the criticisms of Kroos are absolutely valid. I'm not sure if he just lets people run by because he physically can't keep up or if he's just lazy (or a combination of both) but it's not like he's the epitome of effort on the field.

 

[Evilo]

I'm only disrespectful to idiots, not teammates.

 

[YNWA14]

I'm only disrespectful to idiots, not teammates.

So what makes an 'idiot' deserving of disrespect if their nature is not to be disrespectful themselves? Wouldn't it make more sense to try and educate someone that you feel isn't as knowledgeable/intelligent as yourself? Kind of hard to be self righteous about maturity or respect when lacking in it yourself, regardless of the platform.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Interesting? I find Kroos' comments disrespectful, full of himself and the exact contrary than what a leader should be.

Going out in public about teammates is just basic education. Something Kroos lacks apparently. That's Mattheus level really.

It's a heck of an assumption that Kroos didn't say this privately first but didn't get the reaction hoped for and then went public to add more pressure. Regardless, even if it's not the nicest thing Kroos could do, it doesn't mean the complaint is without merit.

 

[Evilo]

So what makes an 'idiot' deserving of disrespect if their nature is not to be disrespectful themselves? Wouldn't it make more sense to try and educate someone that you feel isn't as knowledgeable/intelligent as yourself? Kind of hard to be self righteous about maturity or respect when lacking in it yourself, regardless of the platform.

Refusing to be educated is the definition of being an idiot. And thus warranting every lack of respect possible.
I don't think anyone around me IRL would define me as disrespectful or immature.

 

[Evilo]

It's a heck of an assumption that Kroos didn't say this privately first but didn't get the reaction hoped for and then went public to add more pressure. Regardless, even if it's not the nicest thing Kroos could do, it doesn't mean the complaint is without merit.

It is without merit since it's coming from someone whose "body language" certainly doesn't translate what he's blaming Sane for.

And even if he made the comments privately before, it's one heck of an assumption to assume it warrants being made public.

 

[maclean]

There was anti-Turkish abuse by a small number of German fans on social media. (I refuse to call it 'racist' because Turks aren't non-whites even if their hair and skin are usually a bit darker than the average German's so racist is just lazy short-hand to begin with.)

When the Nazis considered their "Aryan" race superior to, say, the Slavs - a weak, degenerate race, naturally predisposed to servitude - that was not racism, because they are both "white"? Thin ice is thin bro

 

[YNWA14]

Refusing to be educated is the definition of being an idiot. And thus warranting every lack of respect possible.
I don't think anyone around me IRL would define me as disrespectful or immature.

How someone acts under the guise of anonymity and lack of repercussion speaks quite a bit about their character. More so than calling out a teammate for potential legitimate concerns.

 

[Evilo]

I think nobody here is accustomed to me treating them like shit.
Except you.

There's got to be a reason for that.

It was intense joy when you were away. The whole board was calmer and much less shit was posted. I wonder why.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

When the Nazis considered their "Aryan" race superior to, say, the Slavs - a weak, degenerate race, naturally predisposed to servitude - that was not racism, because they are both "white"? Thin ice is thin bro

Well are you agreeing with Nazi race theory? Im part Germanic and part Slav, I dont consider myself multi-racial.

 

[KJS14]

How someone acts under the guise of anonymity and lack of repercussion speaks quite a bit about their character. More so than calling out a teammate for potential legitimate concerns.

Then call him out in private or express your concerns to the manager and see what he thinks. If he's already done that and Sane wasn't picked for the WC squad then he got his point across. There was literally no reason for Kroos to publicly question the commitment of his teammate.

Well are you agreeing with Nazi race theory? Im part Germanic and part Slav, I dont consider myself multi-racial.

You're really hung up on what we should call it, rather than recognizing the actual problem. I wonder why.

 

[S E P H]

I am all for freedom of speech, Kroos can embarrass himself as much as he wants, but he's entitled to an opinion.

When the Nazis considered their "Aryan" race superior to, say, the Slavs - a weak, degenerate race, naturally predisposed to servitude - that was not racism, because they are both "white"? Thin ice is thin bro

Not sure how that implies here when the Nazi's considered every race instead of them, Scandinavians, and anybody who were on their side as "inferior". Hilter said that France (which are known to be darker) was almost to equal to Germans. Hell, the SS thought that Finnish speakers were some how inferior to Swedish-heritage Finnish speakers. Hilter also thought that England had a really poor race and it had more to do with them opposing the Nazi regime - it's how an evil lunatic convinced himself that his ideals and plans were just. Has clearly nothing to do with this debate. Turkish people are multiracial consisting of Slavic, Arab, and even Asian genes.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

You're really hung up on what we should call it, rather than recognizing the actual problem. I wonder why.

Maybe because I recognize it as a ready-made excuse people can use to explain away their own failings. If Ozil doesn't know to this day what he did wrong then he's a dunce and so is everyone who feels the same way.

 

[maclean]

Well are you agreeing with Nazi race theory? Im part Germanic and part Slav, I dont consider myself multi-racial.

Race is in essence arbitrary and "categories" of race exist only in the heads of individuals. When they use these categories as the basis for prejudice, that is what is termed "racism". If you need any evidence of the former point, take for example this statement:

Turkish people are multiracial consisting of Slavic, Arab, and even Asian genes.

If this weren't going offtopic already, I'd be quite curious what an Asian gene is. At any rate, all people are a mixture of different peoples, layered and layered over history, waves of migration, intermixing with local populations, etc. Heck, not only is everyone multiracial, one could go so far as to say we're multispecial, with extensive evidence now of the mixing of Homo sapiens and Neanderthals, plus new evidence that they were also mixing with another hominid offshoot the Denisovans. Any idea of what race someone is is entirely a social construct, influenced by all manner of factors. These perceptions inform how we view others and most importantly how we interpret their actions - reacting differently to the same behaviour based on perception of race, often subconsciously, and often ascribing to race factors that are determined by poverty, education, or even just personality.

So, to bring it back at least somewhat to the point at hand. There are many footballers who have lazy play, or appear that way because of their style. Some are called out for it more than others, but when someone makes the leap that that perceived lack of motivation is due to a lack of desire to win for one's country because that person has a different ethnic background, that is when we cross over in the realm of racism, because no one comes to this conclusion when a person of the "proper" ethnicity plays the same way. In addition it drifts dangerously close to the very widespread notion that darker-skinned "races" are somehow inherently lazier.

 

[Burner Account]

From one scapegoat in Ozil to another in Sane. Kroos made comments about them both as well.

I wonder what Ozil and Sane could possibly have in common to receive such outlandish comments. I don't really wonder btw, it's quite obvious exactly what this is.

It's funny, too, because Kroos has been one of the most vocal in rejecting Ozil's claims of racism in the program. Instead of trying to understand Ozil's perspective, white man says there is no racism. That's a big part of the problem. He probably doesn't even realize how he looks for calling out two nonwhite players while making little mention of, say, Tomas Muller, who was hot garbage at the World Cup.

 

[Evilo]

And Muller doesn't look like he cares either.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

It's funny, too, because Kroos has been one of the most vocal in rejecting Ozil's claims of racism in the program. Instead of trying to understand Ozil's perspective, white man says there is no racism. That's a big part of the problem. He probably doesn't even realize how he looks for calling out two nonwhite players while making little mention of, say, Tomas Muller, who was hot garbage at the World Cup.

Well he was asked about Ozil and Sane, so it'd be rather strange to comment on other players in that situation. I doubt he cares too much about what you or other race-obsessed people on social media think to be honest.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

And Muller doesn't look like he cares either.

Now this is actually 100% wrong because he is an extremely animated guy who can often be seen getting angry and yelling etc. when things aren't working out properly. I saw the same thing yesterday in spite of it being a less than entirely meaningful game. That's part of what insulates him from a lot of criticism, people can see he's engaged.

I think it's amusing when people see a racial angle when players get called out for attitude or anything else. I don't recall Kroos or anyone else around the team calling out the approach and attitude of Sami Khedira or Jerome Boateng. Meanwhile Kroos was said to basically ignore Marvin Plattenhardt (a very German chap) on the pitch because he didn't think he was any good. The story here is that Kroos is trying to establish himself as the leading figure on the national team, he's being a bit cocky, he's not afraid to say what he thinks. That's more of a throwback to the days of Effenberg etc. but the race angle on it is the kind of crap only halfwits on the internet could cook up.

 

[robertmac43]

On a different note:

When the Kroos comments first broke about Sane's body language the first place I went to was maybe Sane is dealing with some stuff behind the scenes. Mental illness is still a rather taboo subject in the sport so I thought maybe Sane does not look like he is all there because he is fighting himself internally. The fact that he left the team for personal reasons today only makes me believe the likelihood that he has something going behind the scenes is a more realistic scenario.

 

[Evilo]

Now this is actually 100% wrong because he is an extremely animated guy who can often be seen getting angry and yelling etc. when things aren't working out properly. I saw the same thing yesterday in spite of it being a less than entirely meaningful game. That's part of what insulates him from a lot of criticism, people can see he's engaged.

Ah so whining to refs is showing you care?
That's highly arguable.

Muller not moving his ass on the pitch and throwing 3 meters pass directly into a throwin seems MUCH MORE than he doesn't care IMO.

 

[Burner Account]

Well he was asked about Ozil and Sane, so it'd be rather strange to comment on other players in that situation. I doubt he cares too much about what you or other race-obsessed people on social media think to be honest.

I'm not really sure how to respond. Thank you for reminding me of what I already knew.

 

[Chimaera]

I don't want to step back into this pile, but I feel I do need to put one final comment before I end my part in the discussion.

I don't feel Kroos saying he thinks some players (and specifically Sane) might need to have an attitude change, that they need to play for the team and work their style into how the side needs them or that how they're perceived is a concern. It's clear from some of Peps management steps that Sane does have some improvement to make. I won't defend what was a poor performance from many German players and management, but a manager who won a World Cup and what he has won does get some benefit in picking players or not. If Löw really has this much of a complaint with him, it's not just a complaint that Kroos has against him, and there is more than a little smoke to this fire.

I think we can debate whether or not he should be the one to say something, but I do appreciate players having the willingness to say what they think, even if it ruffles feathers, instead of saying the "I don't like to comment on others, or it's up to the manager, etc.". I think tone is also important, as I think it could be just as construed into a "here's a suggestion, we need you" type of a statement more than saying something purely negative. We've seen similar in football and other sports (if you follow the NFL, it's been said quite a bit about OBJ needing to focus his game and his attitude to help the team more). Maybe Kroos shouldn't have said what he felt, but if anything, I think Sane is someone who could learn from him, as he has done quite a bit in the game, even if the World Cup was a bit of a flop. Kroos list of awards and accomplishments should hold some weight in the situation, and it should be where Sane wants to be, instead of flaming out because he might not play for the team or strategy the side needs.

 

[Evilo]

I think that AGAIN, part of the problem is :
1- Kroos should not talk about his colleagues in the papers. That's good for every work in every area. Nothing new here with football. No good can be taken out of such a thing.
2- Kroos himself is hardly perfect enough to say this. It's be (a little bit) less ridiculous if it was Hummels, Boateng or anyone who, as badly as they played, gave a 100% effort. Kroos is the epitome of negative body language, but he's so full of himself that he thinks he has the right (maybe even the responsability) to criticize other players.