GWT: PL Matchweek 21

Halladay

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I already started looking at this the other day, trying to figure out what day they could clinch. I was thinking at City or the next weekend home to Villa.
 

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I mean, I think the goal was to play Milner in the back line. Might not happen now. I think one of Gomez or Virgil start. One of the fullbacks sit.
Keita did his groin on the last shot of the warmup. Out at least against Everton. Milner and Lallana probably play. Origi and Minamino probably play. But Their back line is too shallow right now. I’m not risking any of them with Tottenham, United and Wolverhampton up next
 

Live in the Now

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They're going to win it against Villa or Crystal Palace at home. I would really love to see City forced to give them a guard of honor, so hopefully it's against Palace.

Whole year unbeaten in the league is a rather historic run. No league losses at home since early 2017. Barring further injuries the team will not lose this. You know, you always hope this stuff can happen but actually seeing it happen is rather mindblowing. The consistency of the team is beyond words really.

Now, winning the league so early should that happen, will allow Jurgen to really push the team in the CL.
 

YNWA14

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They're going to win it against Villa or Crystal Palace at home. I would really love to see City forced to give them a guard of honor, so hopefully it's against Palace.

Whole year unbeaten in the league is a rather historic run. No league losses at home since early 2017. Barring further injuries the team will not lose this. You know, you always hope this stuff can happen but actually seeing it happen is rather mindblowing. The consistency of the team is beyond words really.

Now, winning the league so early should that happen, will allow Jurgen to really push the team in the CL.
Yeah it's really amazing what they are doing. People can go on about the strength of the PL all they want (as their results in Europe show, incredibly weak going back to last season at the last) and it doesn't really matter, but having maintained this kind of form and consistency dating back to last year while also winning the CL and CWC in the process (against a very weak CL field, the road to the final was a cakewalk even) makes it even more impressive. Can't wait to see if they can continue with what they've started showing heading into 2020, because they've been much better than earlier in the season which has to be a scary thought for opposing teams.
 

Gecklund

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It’s wild to me that United who have not been good this season at anything other than countering is the only team in the the PL to take points off of them since March 3.
 

Burner Account

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Yeah, but this year’s Premiership is so strong.
Liverpool are dominant and the rest of the big six are bad. I’m not saying you’re saying those are mutually exclusive, but a lot of people seem to be suggesting they are.
 

YNWA14

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Liverpool are dominant and the rest of the big six are bad. I’m not saying you’re saying those are mutually exclusive, but a lot of people seem to be suggesting they are.
They're not though. City is not bad, they've had a few injuries and some of the losses they've had are games they'd win most of the time. Their 'poor form' isn't sustainable -- they are still a very strong and even dominant side. Leicester are just as good as any top 4 team minus City or Liverpool in the last half decade. Outside of those 3 it's pretty normal to have teams on that level fighting for the top 4, but now the midrange are stronger so it makes it harder to just gather points. It's not like there have ever been 4 top dominant teams at the same time in any league; just because the expected results of the 'big 6' teams aren't there doesn't mean the league is weaker. There are top teams, good teams and some bad teams in the league, yeah, like any other year.
 

les Habs

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Liverpool are dominant and the rest of the big six are bad. I’m not saying you’re saying those are mutually exclusive, but a lot of people seem to be suggesting they are.

I’m saying this season’s league is weak, and it is. I’ve also said that this is an excellent Liverpool side.
 

robertmac43

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Wow, I actually thought Lingard was still 24 or so...lol

I just read that Lingard didn't score or assist a goal in 2019, going to do some digging to see if ti is true, but if so my goodness I don't actually know if I want him at Brighton!
 

hatterson

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I just read that Lingard didn't score or assist a goal in 2019, going to do some digging to see if ti is true, but if so my goodness I don't actually know if I want him at Brighton!

He scored a goal in the nations league and in the Europa league. But yea he hasn’t scored or assisted domestically since like November 2018. It’s pretty bad.
 

Savant

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And Liverpool aren’t a super team. So figure That one out.
LFC are a super team. 4 of the top 7 in BDO voting. Form speaks for itself. I honestly didn’t know if that was the perception of others (especially here) though. This is the best LFC team since I started watching around 2002 though for sure.
 

Vasilevskiy

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LFC are a super team. 4 of the top 7 in BDO voting. Form speaks for itself. I honestly didn’t know if that was the perception of others (especially here) though. This is the best LFC team since I started watching around 2002 though for sure.

Probably the best Liverpool side you will see in decades, enjoy it!

Now I would like us to kick your arse in the CL but if we didn't win last year...
 
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Burner Account

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They're not though. City is not bad, they've had a few injuries and some of the losses they've had are games they'd win most of the time. Their 'poor form' isn't sustainable -- they are still a very strong and even dominant side. Leicester are just as good as any top 4 team minus City or Liverpool in the last half decade. Outside of those 3 it's pretty normal to have teams on that level fighting for the top 4, but now the midrange are stronger so it makes it harder to just gather points. It's not like there have ever been 4 top dominant teams at the same time in any league; just because the expected results of the 'big 6' teams aren't there doesn't mean the league is weaker. There are top teams, good teams and some bad teams in the league, yeah, like any other year.
I didn't say the league is weaker. I said the big six are bad and compared to last year, they are – on the eye test and on points. Through 21 this season vs. 21 last season:

-City is 6 points worse off (and I understand last season and the one before are probably unreasonable standards)
-United is 7 points worse off
-Chelsea is 8 points worse off
-Arsenal is 14 points worse off
-Spurs are 18 points worse off

Table places 1-6 this season have 31 fewer combined points than at the same time last season, and places 7-20 have 20 more. So the top is doing worse and the rest is doing better. Whether that's due to a weaker top, stronger bottom or both could be debated all day.
 

Chimaera

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It might have traditional powers weaker (though Chelsea, Spurs and City all got through their CL groups relatively unscathed). But I'd make an argument that Wolves, Leicester and even Sheffield United are decent teams. I don't know where the latter would end up in other leagues on the continent, but I'm fairly certain that Wolves and an on form Leicester would be a decent match for any but the real standout in other leagues. Sheffield's defensive, but they're able to neutralize a lot of opponents pretty well. They might get found out as the season goes on, but their season is pretty solid so far.

City is still pretty strong. Even with the critical injuries they do have. Laporte coming back and not worrying about the EPL might do enough to give them a better shot in the CL.

In general, it might be a down season, (I think it's more a situation of parity from 3-15), but I don't know that it's a horribly weaker league this year.
 

les Habs

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I don’t know why people keep bringing up European competitions when they no relevance.

And I’d be happy if my club was in a league where Leicester were the the second best team in the table and Wolves and Sheffield United were worth mentioning.

I didn't say the league is weaker. I said the big six are bad and compared to last year, they are – on the eye test and on points. Through 21 this season vs. 21 last season:

-City is 6 points worse off (and I understand last season and the one before are probably unreasonable standards)
-United is 7 points worse off
-Chelsea is 8 points worse off
-Arsenal is 14 points worse off
-Spurs are 18 points worse off

Table places 1-6 this season have 31 fewer combined points than at the same time last season, and places 7-20 have 20 more. So the top is doing worse and the rest is doing better. Whether that's due to a weaker top, stronger bottom or both could be debated all day.

I’m not questioning your numbers and at least you can see the obvious that the league is weaker this season compared to last season, but as I noted just a week or so back City for example was on pace to finish notably worse than just 6 points off last season’s pace.

I eliminated the promoted sides and also mentioned Leicester and I believe... Everton? Both of them skewed the numbers, but even that said it’s clearly a weaker league. Factor out the big clubs and not much really changes either.
 

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I don’t know why people keep bringing up European competitions when they no relevance.

And I’d be happy if my club was in a league where Leicester were the the second best team in the table and Wolves and Sheffield United were worth mentioning.



I’m not questioning your numbers and at least you can see the obvious that the league is weaker this season compared to last season, but as I noted just a week or so back City for example was on pace to finish notably worse than just 6 points off last season’s pace.

I eliminated the promoted sides and also mentioned Leicester and I believe... Everton? Both of them skewed the numbers, but even that said it’s clearly a weaker league. Factor out the big clubs and not much really changes either.
All of those clubs may be even worse off at the end, but it's clear now they're all worse than last year. I'm not sure if I'm ready to say the whole league is weaker but the bigger clubs are for sure. To @Chimaera point, it does feel like there are more "best of the rest" clubs this year.
 
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Live in the Now

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The reason the league is weaker is because every big six team besides ours (where we needed nothing) did not do transfer business that immediately had a strong positive impact on their team. City even did not do good business. They needed a CB and ignored it.
 

YNWA14

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The reason the league is weaker is because every big six team besides ours (where we needed nothing) did not do transfer business that immediately had a strong positive impact on their team. City even did not do good business. They needed a CB and ignored it.
Spurs brought in some nice players, as did Arsenal, but so did a number of other mid table teams. United also bought and filled a ‘need’. City bought a great fullback but won’t use him and have had a few injuries; their non-offensive buys minus Laporte of late have really let them down. Projecting points is kind of silly without looking at the context (Spurs for example were horrid dating back to Christmas of last season).

All that said every ‘big 6’ team minus City and Chelsea should have been at least as good if not better than last season. City certainly are still a very top team. Ignoring the strength of teams like Leicester, Wolves and the wildcard in Sheffield (who have tactically been great, really smart approaches tailored to their opponents) to claim the league is weaker is obtuse. You can identify why the traditional powers seem weaker domestically, and if you actually watch the games you can see the average quality of some of these teams has really taken a step up.
 

The Abusement Park

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Spurs brought in some nice players, as did Arsenal, but so did a number of other mid table teams. United also bought and filled a ‘need’. City bought a great fullback but won’t use him and have had a few injuries; their non-offensive buys minus Laporte of late have really let them down. Projecting points is kind of silly without looking at the context (Spurs for example were horrid dating back to Christmas of last season).

All that said every ‘big 6’ team minus City and Chelsea should have been at least as good if not better than last season. City certainly are still a very top team. Ignoring the strength of teams like Leicester, Wolves and the wildcard in Sheffield (who have tactically been great, really smart approaches tailored to their opponents) to claim the league is weaker is obtuse. You can identify why the traditional powers seem weaker domestically, and if you actually watch the games you can see the average quality of some of these teams has really taken a step up.

That is so not true.
 
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les Habs

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All of those clubs may be even worse off at the end, but it's clear now they're all worse than last year. I'm not sure if I'm ready to say the whole league is weaker but the bigger clubs are for sure. To @Chimaera point, it does feel like there are more "best of the rest" clubs this year.

I disagree on the “best of the rest” clubs though. I would say that there were more “best of the rest” clubs last year, some of whom are doing notably worse than last season.

The second half of the season could change this, but I don’t know that it will and if there is enough time. With some of the managerial changes and some of the potential January transfers I could see some clubs getting a boost.

Spurs brought in some nice players, as did Arsenal, but so did a number of other mid table teams. United also bought and filled a ‘need’. City bought a great fullback but won’t use him and have had a few injuries; their non-offensive buys minus Laporte of late have really let them down. Projecting points is kind of silly without looking at the context (Spurs for example were horrid dating back to Christmas of last season).

All that said every ‘big 6’ team minus City and Chelsea should have been at least as good if not better than last season. City certainly are still a very top team. Ignoring the strength of teams like Leicester, Wolves and the wildcard in Sheffield (who have tactically been great, really smart approaches tailored to their opponents) to claim the league is weaker is obtuse. You can identify why the traditional powers seem weaker domestically, and if you actually watch the games you can see the average quality of some of these teams has really taken a step up.

:facepalm:

Talk about silly. Really silly to talk about transfers and context and ignore players that were sold. Herrera, Lukaku and Hazard come to mind.

How good a team should be and how good they are are two entirely different things. The facts have been posted multiple times now and the majority of the teams literally are not better as the table demonstrates. As for the likes Leicester, rather laughable mentioning Spurs’ last season form and failing to mention that of Leicester. And As I’ve already demonstrated Wolves weren’t on pace to hit last season’s points total at the midway point of the season. That’s not to mention they just lost to 10 man Watford who before that match only had 3 wins all season going into the match. As for actually watching the matches, it’s clear that the majority of the teams aren’t performing to last year’s level if you are indeed watching the matches, Liverpool included.

Now if someone were smart they could put forth reasons as to why the teams are weaker this season, and there are many including multiple reasons for some clubs. Of course we already know your motive here which you posted last time this came up.
 

Chimaera

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I don’t know why people keep bringing up European competitions when they no relevance.

And I’d be happy if my club was in a league where Leicester were the the second best team in the table and Wolves and Sheffield United were worth mentioning.



I’m not questioning your numbers and at least you can see the obvious that the league is weaker this season compared to last season, but as I noted just a week or so back City for example was on pace to finish notably worse than just 6 points off last season’s pace.

I eliminated the promoted sides and also mentioned Leicester and I believe... Everton? Both of them skewed the numbers, but even that said it’s clearly a weaker league. Factor out the big clubs and not much really changes either.


How else can you really compare relative performance? Saying it's a weak league, as compared to what? They're beating teams that are in decent position in continental leagues. Comparing it with past seasons, the traditional big clubs are certainly not as good as they usually are.

I mean, for what it's worth, you could use some metrics. The xG/xGa stats are relatively similar to last season (if the argument is that this season is weaker than last). City have a higher xGa (22 this season, as opposed to 17.3) but also a 55xG and 51 the year prior. Liverpool are relatively similar (just a drop in xG from 45.7 to 42), Chelsea has more xG, but also more xGa, (40 xG versus 37.4 xG, and 24 to 18.5), United's actually way off in xGa (with 21 last year compared with 28.86 this year, and similar xG. Leicester has a massive jump of 34.5 up from 26. For comparison sake, Barca are down a bit in xG so far, but similar against. Real seeing some improved numbers, but Atletico seeing the main jump in performance so far.

But it's also only little more than halfway through the season. Two of the traditional powers whacked managers, but should see an uptick in performance (though Spurs might not).

As for whether Wolves or Leicester are worth mentioning, I think they're both better than all but two or three teams in each other European leagues. I think in a two legged match, Leicester might be a match for all but 5 or 6 clubs in Europe, over performing or not. I think some of that discussion is arguably whether or not they're clubs who in a one off, or a knockout tie can show up. Sustained excellent play is really only happening for Liverpool.


I do think the league might be objectively weaker than prior seasons, but I don't know if it's that much off the course. Especially when you consider a few of the clubs further down the table are doing a bit better, and some of the clubs who are poor right now, should see an improvement as the season goes.
 
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