GWT: PL Matchweek 21

[Corto]

1/ Yes he had a bad game. In Pool's biggest game of the season. Not Fulham.
2/ Yes other players have bad games. But they also come up big when it matters. Stones suck and I said as much in the thread. VVD yesterday had a good game. Robertson too.
3/ Still doesn't excuse the incredible bias to say he isn't directly responsible for both goals, he is. On the second goal, HE PUT STERLING ONSIDE after VVD plays the offside trap very well.
4/ If you think Gomez and Lovren are at the same level, you're delusionnal.

1. He did have a bad game. He was also near-perfect in the City-tie in the CL, in the CL final, a bunch of other big games in the Premiership, the WC, etc.
You're implying he cracks in big games - which is rubbish.
VVD -as good as he is, and he is - has had a few really bad moments at key times in big games - more than Lovren (City tie CL, pen vs Spurs, pen vs City this season, etc.).
A good number of times in the last year, in their current "biggest game of the year", Lovren was either the MVP or among the best (City home game this season, for example).
Then a bad game happens once in a year and suddenly he "crumbles under pressure" or whatever...? Please.

2. And Lovren is usually big when it matters as well. At least, "this", post-Spurs Lovren is.

3. He put Sterling onside in a transition play on the other side of the pitch. It's something that happens half a dozen times per game and if you're going to blame a defender for a goal based on that, playing a guy a foot onside 5 meters into his half, with 5-6 players ready to defend... Then you can blame absolutely every goal in any game on someone.
It's a mistake, but a minor one, an "ordinary" one, and I can't imagine anyone in the Liverpool dressing room is blaming him for the goal.

Sometimes things don't work for you.
On the Aquero goal, Lovren looks over his shoulder twice, and is covering Sane. And then Aguero (who dove for a pen a few seconds before) comes from an offside position where he was on the ground appealing for a pen, runs onside, gets momentum and executes a magnificent strike.
It's a sneaky moment of inspiration from Aguero, where in the position he was in, Lovren driving Aguero wide was the most he could've done.
It's tough for any defender - and it doesn't look great on the screen, but I honestly think more of that goal is on Aguero's moment of brilliance than on Lovren's mistake in covering.

4. Lovren's had an amazing year. For club and country. And still very little respect from the media, most of who still treat him as a meme.
Gomez has had an amazing 3 months. And he's younger.
They're different, Lovren is more agressive, Gomez is faster. But if Klopp is picking his 11 for a CL final tomorrow, more than likely, Lovren is starting (they probably both are and TAA moves to the bench, as has been the case in big games this season when all were healty, vs City at home and PSG away).

I don't think you understand, unless you've seen every Liverpool game in the last year. Gomez has been great, no question.
Lovren though, has been absolutely lights out as well, massive in big games, steady and consistent the whole time. He's dropped the meme tag months ago to anyone following Liverpool - be it an inferior opponent in the EPL, big matches vs top-6 or CL ties, he's been rock solid.
With VVD and the two of them as 2A/2B, Liverpool are well set to succeed defensively this season - and they're doing so.
One loss (vs this City team) does not change that in any way.

 

[maclean]

Conte did miracles in rebuilding a broken Juventus side and taking a **** Italian team to Quarters - eliminating Spain and only losing to Germans via PKs. Then he goes to an old ass Chelsea team and secures 95 points to win a title. The board then screws him over by not getting him his targets (Drinkwater over Vidal lol) and he gets sacked unfairly.

OK, thought you were just referring to his stint at Chelsea - there they were only a season away from their last title with much of the same team who had simply turned against a hated manager the year before. While winning the PL is always an admirable feat, I wouldn't say in this case that he didn't have much to work with... as much as I have a personal disrespect for many of Chelsea's players, they were a side that had had quite recent success.

 

[Evilo]

1. He did have a bad game. He was also near-perfect in the City-tie in the CL, in the CL final, a bunch of other big games in the Premiership, the WC, etc.
You're implying he cracks in big games - which is rubbish.
VVD -as good as he is, and he is - has had a few really bad moments at key times in big games - more than Lovren (City tie CL, pen vs Spurs, pen vs City this season, etc.).
A good number of times in the last year, in their current "biggest game of the year", Lovren was either the MVP or among the best (City home game this season, for example).
Then a bad game happens once in a year and suddenly he "crumbles under pressure" or whatever...? Please.

2. And Lovren is usually big when it matters as well. At least, "this", post-Spurs Lovren is.

3. He put Sterling onside in a transition play on the other side of the pitch. It's something that happens half a dozen times per game and if you're going to blame a defender for a goal based on that, playing a guy a foot onside 5 meters into his half, with 5-6 players ready to defend... Then you can blame absolutely every goal in any game on someone.
It's a mistake, but a minor one, an "ordinary" one, and I can't imagine anyone in the Liverpool dressing room is blaming him for the goal.

Sometimes things don't work for you.
On the Aquero goal, Lovren looks over his shoulder twice, and is covering Sane. And then Aguero (who dove for a pen a few seconds before) comes from an offside position where he was on the ground appealing for a pen, runs onside, gets momentum and executes a magnificent strike.
It's a sneaky moment of inspiration from Aguero, where in the position he was in, Lovren driving Aguero wide was the most he could've done.
It's tough for any defender - and it doesn't look great on the screen, but I honestly think more of that goal is on Aguero's moment of brilliance than on Lovren's mistake in covering.

4. Lovren's had an amazing year. For club and country. And still very little respect from the media, most of who still treat him as a meme.
Gomez has had an amazing 3 months. And he's younger.
They're different, Lovren is more agressive, Gomez is faster. But if Klopp is picking his 11 for a CL final tomorrow, more than likely, Lovren is starting (they probably both are and TAA moves to the bench, as has been the case in big games this season when all were healty, vs City at home and PSG away).

I don't think you understand, unless you've seen every Liverpool game in the last year. Gomez has been great, no question.
Lovren though, has been absolutely lights out as well, massive in big games, steady and consistent the whole time. He's dropped the meme tag months ago to anyone following Liverpool - be it an inferior opponent in the EPL, big matches vs top-6 or CL ties, he's been rock solid.
With VVD and the two of them as 2A/2B, Liverpool are well set to succeed defensively this season - and they're doing so.
One loss (vs this City team) does not change that in any way.

1/ Link? I said Stones crumbled under pressure. I said Lovren can't be trusted. And no, Lovren was not Pool's MVP in big games. That's just rewriting history. VVD however has been many times.
2/ They lost 2-1. He gave up 3 clear opportunties, and was responsible for two goals out of two. It's not just a mistake.
3/ He failed his alignement many times. Any CB will tell you it's not a "minor" mistake. It's a big one. Those mistakes lead to two direct chances including one goal and one Sterling absolutely bottled. Lovren is late on Aguero's goal because he has low football IQ. He doesn't sense where the danger is coming from. Heck I'm not a pro but when I saw Silva in a tight space to cross I immediately look at the first post. Aguero too. Lovren didn't.
4/ Why do you think? Because he's treated unfairly or because you refuse to see the obvious?
No, in a CL final, Klopp starts Gomez, no question. In fact, when TAA or Gomez weren't injued, Lovren was always on the bench. Klopp knows it, Lovren is a mistake away from ruining a game. Part of it is because Gomez is really weak at RB. Bt better than Lovren at CB.
I don't understand? Please, every Pool fan here save one (for obvious reasons) will tell you the same. Gomez > Lovren
There's no 2A/2B. It's option Gomez and if TAA is injured then Lovren plays. That's why he has played 9 games this seasons. NINE. He didn't play until november 24th.
Indeed, Liverpool has defended well this season. And guess what? That's in part because Lovren starts less than previous years.

Lovren has started 6 EPL games this year. They got scored on 4 times. Liverpool has played 13 games without Lovren this year. They got scored on 6 times.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

1/ Link? I said Stones crumbled under pressure. I said Lovren can't be trusted. And no, Lovren was not Pool's MVP in big games. That's just rewriting history. VVD however has been many times.
2/ They lost 2-1. He gave up 3 clear opportunties, and was responsible for two goals out of two. It's not just a mistake.
3/ He failed his alignement many times. Any CB will tell you it's not a "minor" mistake. It's a big one. Those mistakes lead to two direct chances including one goal and one Sterling absolutely bottled. Lovren is late on Aguero's goal because he has low football IQ. He doesn't sense where the danger is coming from. Heck I'm not a pro but when I saw Silva in a tight space to cross I immediately look at the first post. Aguero too. Lovren didn't.
4/ Why do you think? Because he's treated unfairly or because you refuse to see the obvious?
No, in a CL final, Klopp starts Gomez, no question. In fact, when TAA or Gomez weren't injued, Lovren was always on the bench. Klopp knows it, Lovren is a mistake away from ruining a game. Part of it is because Gomez is really weak at RB. Bt better than Lovren at CB.
I don't understand? Please, every Pool fan here save one (for obvious reasons) will tell you the same. Gomez > Lovren
There's no 2A/2B. It's option Gomez and if TAA is injured then Lovren plays. That's why he has played 9 games this seasons. NINE. He didn't play until november 24th.
Indeed, Liverpool has defended well this season. And guess what? That's in part because Lovren starts less than previous years.

Lovren has started 6 EPL games this year. They got scored on 4 times. Liverpool has played 13 games without Lovren this year. They got scored on 6 times.

That last stat is quite a stat , I'm sure there might be intangibles involved but still ...a worrying stat if I was the manager

 

[Evilo]

Oh yeah and about Lovren playing great in big games with the PSG game given as an example.
He was among the worst rated players on the pitch and was directly responsible for the PSG's second goal.
He watched the first goal as well from one meter out.

 

[Cassano]

Lovren was absolutely dog shit before VvD has been carrying his ass for months. He had to disable his IG because he was getting death threats every week from Liverpool fans prior to that transfer.

 

[Savant]

Lovren didn't have a great game. He struggles when he has to play too many games in a row. We know this.

To everyone talking trash on Lovren, I would ask you, who else would you have put back there? What else were they supposed to do?

Even with Lovren having a bad-Lovren game, LFC were literally centimeters from getting a point out of the game.

 

[Evilo]

Lovren didn't have a great game. He struggles when he has to play too many games in a row. We know this.

To everyone talking trash on Lovren, I would ask you, who else would you have put back there? What else were they supposed to do?

Even with Lovren having a bad-Lovren game, LFC were literally centimeters from getting a point out of the game.

Who said Klopp had the choice?
And again, saying that if Liverpool scores first they would have at least a point is pure theory.

 

[Corto]

There's no 2A/2B. It's option Gomez and if TAA is injured then Lovren plays. That's why he has played 9 games this seasons. NINE. He didn't play until november 24th.

He was out, injured. First with an abdominal issue, which he had a procedure done in Germany, then with a flu and with concussion.
Injuries are absolutely the only reason he doesn't have more starts this year... Which anyone following Liverpool even remotely would know.

In fact, his first EPL game was vs City, where he started and TAA was benched (a healthy TAA, who was struggling at the time anyway), and when healthy, Lovren's started all his games (except Napoli home).

Now, you can research this fairly easily (including the ratings and fan feedback in games such as City home, CL final or the City CL tie), or you can just continue with your agenda based in half-truth and lies (or misinformation, at best).

 

[Savant]

Who said Klopp had the choice?
And again, saying that if Liverpool scores first they would have at least a point is pure theory.

I mean if Liverpool are up 1 0, maybe they take all three points. There is no way to know but taking what we know into account I'm going to say a draw was a fair choice in a cagey game I'm no Lovren fan but he has filled in very well to this point. And there not was even a CB on the bench. Lovren playing with a yellow card hurt tonight. Bad

 

[Evilo]

He was out, injured. First with an abdominal issue, which he had a procedure done in Germany, then with a flu and with concussion.
Injuries are absolutely the only reason he doesn't have more starts this year... Which anyone following Liverpool even remotely would know.

In fact, his first EPL game was vs City, where he started and TAA was benched (a healthy TAA, who was struggling at the time anyway), and when healthy, Lovren's started all his games (except Napoli home).

Now, you can research this fairly easily (including the ratings and fan feedback in games such as City home, CL final or the City CL tie), or you can just continue with your agenda based in half-truth and lies (or misinformation, at best).

I didn't remember the injury so fine. Weird that he did play with his NT in the mean time, but whatever.

Injuries are the only reason he GOT starts. You can research this easily, including the ratings of games such as PSG (a testimony for you that he brings his A game in big games). France Football had him at 4/10. only Wij and Firmino had 3. VVD had 5.5 IIRC.
But I guess that's what you call "half-truths", "lies" or "misinformations".
You say he performs in big games and gives the PSG game as an example.
I give his rating.
I'm the liar.

Right.

I give the Liverpool goals against per game with or without Lovren, but I guess I'm the liar.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

Lovren is not as bad as some claim. He was terrible yesterday though.

That being said he should not start anymore game for Liverpool. They need more quality and Gomez/Matip injury proness are huge worries.

They should sell one of Lovren or Matip and throw all the money for De Ligt.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

So much navel gazing....

 

[Savant]

Lovren is not as bad as some claim. He was terrible yesterday though.

That being said he should not start anymore game for Liverpool. They need more quality and Gomez/Matip injury proness are huge worries.

They should sell one of Lovren or Matip and throw all the money for De Ligt.

I think in terms of a 3rd and 4th CB, you could do a whole lot worse than Lovren and Matip. The problem is Gomez and Matip is injured so Lovren keeps getting the rope to hang himself with. Liverpool dont have anything else, and of course Lovren's weakness is when he plays too many games in a row.

They probably do need some new blood on the defense though. De Ligt is great but I don't know where that would leave Gomez. I think they could do a couple of things. They can go for a guy like Elvedi from Monchengladbach who can cover all over the line, or what I think they should really do is upgrade at Right Back, and try to get Trent into midfield for 19/20 season. Not sure who that guy would be though. Maybe Wan-Bissaka?

 

[Chimaera]

He wasn't the only reason they lost. It's what it is. He's not a very good defender, and I would not want to see him playing regularly if it came down to it. But in his defense, he did not get much help from TAA, and he has also only been back for a little while with inconsistent match time.

I would like to take some disagreement with the idea that Liverpool fans here were planning the parade. If anything, I was a bit shocked that City was behind, and while happy, I've always known it was a long season where I still think in my heart of hearts, that City is the favorite. Heck, when Liverpool got behind a bit early, I can own up to the fact that I thought it might have been the end of a race.

 

[Evilo]

Yeah I didn't see any Pool fan here planning the parade.

 

[les Habs]

That's just rewriting history.

 

[Evilo]

I know.... And I'm accused of being a liar...

 

[les Habs]

Yeah I didn't see any Pool fan here planning the parade.

No, but some levels of confidence that were... exuberant like this:

"If he never gets hurt they should win the title from the position they're in. Simple as that."

That was in reference to van Dijk and from 12/26. There was too much confidence that early in the title run and before the City match and I stand by that even if Liverpool win it all. I wouldn't make that sort of comment right now and we're 7 points up on a Madrid side that doesn't look good.

 

[Chimaera]

I mean, if they play how they've played, and avoid injuries, they should have a good run at it.

But I've seen two failures in the recent history that proves it's never over.

 

[Burner Account]

No, but some levels of confidence that were... exuberant like this:

"If he never gets hurt they should win the title from the position they're in. Simple as that."

That was in reference to van Dijk and from 12/26. There was too much confidence that early in the title run and before the City match and I stand by that even if Liverpool win it all. I wouldn't make that sort of comment right now and we're 7 points up on a Madrid side that doesn't look good.

I didn't post that but at that time, was it not reasonable to believe Liverpool should see it through when nobody has lost that kind of lead since 1888?

 

[les Habs]

I mean, if they play how they've played, and avoid injuries, they should have a good run at it.

But I've seen two failures in the recent history that proves it's never over.

Well that's just it. 7 points ahead at Christmas over this City side shouldn't spark too much optimism that it's over whether they avoid injuries or not. If City were on the level of say Spurs then I could see a bit more optimism, but as it stood it was too optimistic.

 

[Evilo]

I understood that "should" as in "they have no excuse not to". Not as "I think they will".

 

[les Habs]

I didn't post that but at that time, was it not reasonable to believe Liverpool should see it through when nobody has lost that kind of lead since 1888?

No, I don't think it was reasonable when you consider there was still half the season to play, City were still mathematically in it with yesterday's fixture right on the horizon and the reason City weren't in a great position vis a vis Liverpool was down to City not performing and having some key injuries as much if not more so as was how Liverpool were performing. I don't care and I don't have a horse in the race nor do I think the commentary was too overboard, but there were a couple of posts that I thought were looking well ahead when they shouldn't have been.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

As a Pool fan I fully expect the worse.

But the star seem a bit aligned for us with the City struggling before yesterday and Liverpool finally playing decent defensively with Alisson, Robertson, VVD. TAA is still a weak link and Gomez has shown he is the best partner to VVD but he is still raw.

TBF the first team that blink could be in trouble (Spurs, City, Liverpool) all pts are now crucial.