GWT: PL Matchweek 21

[les Habs]

When the two top of the table teams took to the pitch today the players running out cost the two clubs over a billion £ . , never mind the obscene money they paid for wages. Except for Blackburn( 4 highest wages) and Leicester ( 14th highest wages ) all premier league titles have been won by a top 3 wage paying team . Managers have a lot to do with success but not as much as money for transfers and wages .Titles are bought .

The two top of the table teams that took to the pitch today also had the two best managers in the sport.

Money obviously makes a difference and a big one, but so do managers. Neither City nor Liverpool would be nearly as good as they are without Guardiola and Klopp respectively. And if it were all down to money then explain United and Spurs.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

The two top of the table teams that took to the pitch today also had the two best managers in the sport.

Money obviously makes a difference and a big one, but so do managers. Neither City nor Liverpool would be nearly as good as they are without Guardiola and Klopp respectively.

Who the best managers will always be up for debate....there is no debating the money

 

[les Habs]

Who the best managers will always be up for debate....there is no debating the money

Look at my reply again. Definitely debating the money. And go ahead and debate the managers.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

Look at my reply again. Definitely debating the money. And go ahead and debate the managers.

No thanks , but there's millions of people who would debate managers , I prefer to debate money because more times than not , money makes managers resumes

 

[les Habs]

No thanks , but there's millions of people who would debate managers , I prefer to debate money because more times than not , money makes managers resumes

Yeah, and millions of people voted for Trump.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

Take your " Two top managers" and put them on Southampton and Huddersfield for a season and see how they do .

 

[Live in the Now]

Take your " Two top managers" and put them on Southampton and Huddersfield for a season and see how they do .

One of them brought Southampton to a different club and they're leading the league.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

One of them brought Southampton to a different club and they're leading the league.

Sorry , I don't understand

 

[The Abusement Park]

No thanks , but there's millions of people who would debate managers , I prefer to debate money because more times than not , money makes managers resumes

United has spent a shit load of money since SAF and done jack shit. Obviously teams with money will be the best teams, but they still have to be coached well to actually win anything.

 

[les Habs]

Take your " Two top managers" and put them on Southampton and Huddersfield for a season and see how they do .

Much better than their current managers.

 

[Mr Plow]

Great game today. Don't think City were the better team like a lot of people have been saying but Liverpool didn't deserve to win either. A draw would have been the fairest result in my opinion. The difference today was Degsy having a shocker and City getting the puck luck, so to speak.

City's midfield is a joy to watch. Liverpool's midfield that Klopp opted for were great last season when he had the forwards pressing higher. This year however when those passes out from the back aren't being rushed by Liverpool's front 3 the Gini/Hendo/Milner midfield is utterly ineffective.

I hope Klopp sticks to the 4-2-3-1 for a while, and if he must play the 4-3-3 in another big game at least get the forwards to press like their lives depend on it.

 

[JeffreyLFC]

I was finally able to watch the game. Manchester pressing was intense from the 1st minute to the last. They backtracked like crazy and there was always like 2/3 players pressuring the guy in possession. Funny enough liverpool were more efficient when they switched side and creating more space. I think for Liverpool the midfield defending were way too passive. Milner was poor. Henderson was poor. Gini was slow in possession. Somehow it looked almost like a copy from last year but reversed. Last year Liverpool were making high pressure to manchester city defense and created many chances in quick counter and shooting quickly. This time it was City creating many turnovers by constantly pressing Liverpool and doing quick counter.

I also think that if Liverpool want to play long ball like they did they need a strong, physical and tall center forward not Salah. It was worthless to see all these long ball delivered to Salah where he could not even touch the ball because the defense were bullying him hard all night.

Overall very disappointing with Klopp choices in that game.

 

[Fred McCarthy]

I was finally able to watch the game. Manchester pressing was intense from the 1st minute to the last. They backtracked like crazy and there was always like 2/3 players pressuring the guy in possession. Funny enough liverpool were more efficient when they switched side and creating more space. I think for Liverpool the midfield defending were way too passive. Milner was poor. Henderson was poor. Gini was slow in possession. Somehow it looked almost like a copy from last year but reversed. Last year Liverpool were making high pressure to manchester city defense and created many chances in quick counter and shooting quickly. This time it was City creating many turnovers by constantly pressing Liverpool and doing quick counter.

I also think that if Liverpool want to play long ball like they did they need a strong, physical and tall center forward not Salah. It was worthless to see all these long ball delivered to Salah where he could not even touch the ball because the defense were bullying him hard all night.

Overall very disappointing with Klopp choices in that game.

I was more than surprised that Shaqiri didn't start this game , it was his kind off game imo

 

[maclean]

I was finally able to watch the game. Manchester pressing was intense from the 1st minute to the last. They backtracked like crazy and there was always like 2/3 players pressuring the guy in possession. Funny enough liverpool were more efficient when they switched side and creating more space. I think for Liverpool the midfield defending were way too passive. Milner was poor. Henderson was poor. Gini was slow in possession. Somehow it looked almost like a copy from last year but reversed. Last year Liverpool were making high pressure to manchester city defense and created many chances in quick counter and shooting quickly. This time it was City creating many turnovers by constantly pressing Liverpool and doing quick counter.

I also think that if Liverpool want to play long ball like they did they need a strong, physical and tall center forward not Salah. It was worthless to see all these long ball delivered to Salah where he could not even touch the ball because the defense were bullying him hard all night.

Overall very disappointing with Klopp choices in that game.

City was only really having quick counters towards the end when Liverpool was throwing everything forward, from my perspective. In the first half they often had Liverpool hemmed in their box trying to find a way in, which impressively they often managed to do. I was also impressed by the backtracking - forwards who were just a second ago taking shots were suddenly screaming back to break up plays, not something you often see.

 

[maclean]

Great manager, but I am more impressed with what Pochettino, Conte and Klopp have done in recent seasons. Stylistically he is probably the best, but I still like Klopp's style of play better.

OK, I get that it's more impressive to build up a team and do more with less (thoughhhh I don't really see how Conte fits into that) but if, say, Poche goes to Real, he's going to be winning the title and CL every year? No, because there's less room at the top. Criticising Pep for not having every title is like criticising Messi for not winning the all the titles ever year. There's only one spot and every year it takes something different, always including a good deal of luck. Also, as someone pointed out, despite the money invested, City still fields a lot of players that are quite suspect. Who didn't think, with Otamendi coming on at the end of last night's game - oh great, here comes a last-minute foul in the box?

 

[Evilo]

Lovren did have a bad game today but it is just one bad game over the last 12-15 months or so. If Liverpool had scored twice and they should have we wouldn't be talking about this.

Yeah and if City scores on the two other Lovren mistakes, we still talk about him. He had a disastrous game in every aspect. His offside alignment cost his team 3 big chances, including one goal.
It's great to beat Fulham and Lovren has a good game. But he sucked and cost two goals out of two in the their biggest game yet.

 

[Evilo]

but it sucks knowing that Liverpool were 1 cm away from being seven points clear of City after playing them.

There's no knowing here. It would have been the opener, but who knows how the game would have turned out?

 

[Evilo]

Firmino has stunk in front of goal until this week.

Clinical finishing is lacking quite a bit, they're getting some chances but not finishing them all that great.

Firmino isn't a great scorer though. Mane is off/on and Salah is great (look at his only half chance, badly defended again by Stones BTW).
They don't look as easy as last year but 1/ teams are closing Salah much more and 2/ Pool forwards may not bas a good as last year suggests.

 

[Corto]

Yeah and if City scores on the two other Lovren mistakes, we still talk about him. He had a disastrous game in every aspect. His offside alignment cost his team 3 big chances, including one goal.
It's great to beat Fulham and Lovren has a good game. But he sucked and cost two goals out of two in the their biggest game yet.

Lovren had a horrid game (his last 4 games vs City were outstanding mind you), but blaming the Aguero goal on him is stretching it (as is the offside alignment by a foot, on the other side of the pitch, in transition, the play started by Emerson - that stuff just happens a dozen times a game).
The Aquero goal was just so well taken, that yes, it looks like he could've done more - but he couldn't. Aguero's little stutter step to get on the ball was magnificent and his finish was world class.
He was off, Lovren, ever since his yellow card (which, funnily enough, was his BFF's Salah's fault), always a bit hesitant, always a step off - but he could've done very little on the Aguero goal and blaming him for the 2nd goal is a stretch as well.
His first bad game in over a year, vs a team like City... It happens.

Liverpool's midfield was a bit slow and sluggish compared to what they usually do in transition, Lovren had a bad game, and the luck wasn't with them either (the Mane chance could've just turned the whole match on its head).

Either way, Liverpool are still 4 points ahead and have played both City and Spurs away.
They've been grinding out wins 1-0 when needed, hammering inferior teams when possible and getting good results against the other top-6.
4 points ahead of this City team is amazing at this point of the season.

The only thing that matters for Liverpool now is to respond with a win and don't let one loss shake them.
Winning a title is much more about responding to a loss than about simply "continuing to win".

 

[Evilo]

How blaming him on the 2nd goal is a stretch? Seriously? Watch it again please.
1/ His offside alignment allows the play.
2/ His defense of Sane was atrocious.

Wanna bet it's VVD with Aguero there's no first goal? Of course. His instincts aren't good. Silva's cross couldn't go anywhere but first post. Aguero got it quickly. Lovren too late. He was late on the play with a very tight angle to close.

I'll also stress again that TAA is also responsible for the first goal. Silva walks in front of him and Wij presses him, but TAA is there two meters away and doesn't make a move. He covers nobody and doesn't help his teammate.

 

[Corto]

How blaming him on the 2nd goal is a stretch? Seriously? Watch it again please.
1/ His offside alignment allows the play.
2/ His defense of Sane was atrocious.

Wanna bet it's VVD with Aguero there's no first goal? Of course. His instincts aren't good. Silva's cross couldn't go anywhere but first post. Aguero got it quickly. Lovren too late. He was late on the play with a very tight angle to close.

I'll also stress again that TAA is also responsible for the first goal. Silva walks in front of him and Wij presses him, but TAA is there two meters away and doesn't make a move. He covers nobody and doesn't help his teammate.

Give me a break. Dude had a bad game.
One in over a year. Just that it's Lovren so it's popular to pull up memes and hate on the guy.
In that same time period, Varane has had a period of absolutely awful bunch of games (basically this season on the whole, especially the early bits), Ramos as well, VVD gave away a foolish pen to City at Anfield (and lost the ball to Sterling in the away leg in the CL), Chiellini messed up vs Juve and cost them a goal, Stones completely switched off vs Mandzukic in the WC, etc etc.

Sometimes, defenders make mistakes or have bad games. Sometimes, an attacker is inspired and produces a moment of brilliance (Aguero's goal was absolutely world class, and I have no idea what you wanted Lovren to do on the Sane goal after the moment the ball got to Sterling).
He had to step up to Sterling and leave Sane to TAA - which he did.
What else could he have done - run to his right to cover Sane and leave Sterling to go clean in on goal?

Dude had a bad game. It happens. Doesn't suddenly make a year+ of fantastic play go away, a year+ of rock solid play in big match after big match disappear (from the City CL tie to the CL final, to Croatia's WC run, he was an absolute rock in all the big matches).
It's just a bad game, nothing more to it. He was struggling after the yellow card, it happens.

Him and Gomez being 2A/2B is perfect to VVD being #1 over there, and there's a reason why they've conceded so little ever since Klopp switched his system after the Spurs game last season and then VVD came in.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

 

[Evilo]

Give me a break. Dude had a bad game.
One in over a year. Just that it's Lovren so it's popular to pull up memes and hate on the guy.
In that same time period, Varane has had a period of absolutely awful bunch of games (basically this season on the whole, especially the early bits), Ramos as well, VVD gave away a foolish pen to City at Anfield (and lost the ball to Sterling in the away leg in the CL), Chiellini messed up vs Juve and cost them a goal, Stones completely switched off vs Mandzukic in the WC, etc etc.

Sometimes, defenders make mistakes or have bad games. Sometimes, an attacker is inspired and produces a moment of brilliance (Aguero's goal was absolutely world class, and I have no idea what you wanted Lovren to do on the Sane goal after the moment the ball got to Sterling).
He had to step up to Sterling and leave Sane to TAA - which he did.
What else could he have done - run to his right to cover Sane and leave Sterling to go clean in on goal?

Dude had a bad game. It happens. Doesn't suddenly make a year+ of fantastic play go away, a year+ of rock solid play in big match after big match disappear (from the City CL tie to the CL final, to Croatia's WC run, he was an absolute rock in all the big matches).
It's just a bad game, nothing more to it. He was struggling after the yellow card, it happens.

Him and Gomez being 2A/2B is perfect to VVD being #1 over there, and there's a reason why they've conceded so little ever since Klopp switched his system after the Spurs game last season and then VVD came in.

1/ Yes he had a bad game. In Pool's biggest game of the season. Not Fulham.
2/ Yes other players have bad games. But they also come up big when it matters. Stones suck and I said as much in the thread. VVD yesterday had a good game. Robertson too.
3/ Still doesn't excuse the incredible bias to say he isn't directly responsible for both goals, he is. On the second goal, HE PUT STERLING ONSIDE after VVD plays the offside trap very well.
4/ If you think Gomez and Lovren are at the same level, you're delusionnal.

 

[Evilo]

Forgot
5/ You're acting as if he was just unlucky to be booked. He made a BUTCHER move, tackling WAY late, because he was always late. His card was not only warranted, if VVD hadn't been two meters behind, it could have been a red.

 

[Cassano]

OK, I get that it's more impressive to build up a team and do more with less (thoughhhh I don't really see how Conte fits into that) but if, say, Poche goes to Real, he's going to be winning the title and CL every year? No, because there's less room at the top. Criticising Pep for not having every title is like criticising Messi for not winning the all the titles ever year. There's only one spot and every year it takes something different, always including a good deal of luck. Also, as someone pointed out, despite the money invested, City still fields a lot of players that are quite suspect. Who didn't think, with Otamendi coming on at the end of last night's game - oh great, here comes a last-minute foul in the box?

Conte did miracles in rebuilding a broken Juventus side and taking a shit Italian team to Quarters - eliminating Spain and only losing to Germans via PKs. Then he goes to an old ass Chelsea team and secures 95 points to win a title. The board then screws him over by not getting him his targets (Drinkwater over Vidal lol) and he gets sacked unfairly.