GWT: PL Matchweek 14

[hatterson]

So Championship teams got a lower winning % than PL teams?

Not really defending OGS. As I said when he was appointed he isn't even the best Norwegian manager out there. But I'm not sure how anyone can expect any manager to so especially well with that squad.

As for the midweek game it obviously influences things regardless of who is playing. Same thing happens over and over again even with the "b team" is out playing in the CL and EL.

No one is expecting him to be challenging for the title, but it's not acceptable for United to have Draws against Wolves, Southampton, Sheffield, and Aston Villa while also having losses against Bournemouth, Newcastle, West Ham, and Palace.

People talk about United like there's straight trash on the team, but if you look at the actual talent on the pitch, they're better than each of those teams at virtually every position.

In regards to the midweek game.

1.) Sunday's game was against newly promoted Aston Villa. This is not Liverpool or City we're talking about.
2.) OGS sent 3 senior players on the trip, only one of whom would have been even remotely in consideration for a starting role is Lingard, but OGS made his decisions about the weekend and *then* selected the Europa league team. He intentionally left every one of the starting XI at home as well as the majority of the bench. He didn't just leave them out of the starting XI, he literally had them stay at home. For all of the senior United players save Lindard and Shaw, there was no difference between the midweek game being a Europa league game or the literal U23 team playing their usual fixtures. OGS also kept two of the main senior coaches at home so it's not like training would have been disrupted either.

And yet the best he could come up with was some weird almost 4-2-4 with Fred and Pereira in midfield which is basically guaranteed to fail if you've ever watched either of those players play for United.

 

[Blender]

Not sure if that is a logical way of looking at it - comparing full backs and central defenders like that.

Evans is really good. Very solid. And Soyuncu has filled the hole Maguire left excellently the times I have seen him. I'm not going to pretend that I know him that well, but he could very well be better than Maguire from the times I have seen him.

We'll see when the going gets a bit tougher for Leicester. When things are going your way then weaknesses are usually a bit camouflaged. Not suggesting they will collapse, but individual weaknesses might show a bit better then.

I wasn't comparing them directly, just saying that they were great players last year for them that were largely overlooked. Pereira was their player of the year for example.

The narrative around Maguire leaving was that it would hurt their ability to defend quite a bit, but they are an even better defensive side than last year and currently have fewer goals conceded than anyone. Part of that is down to Rodgers of course, but they just have very good players back there as well. That goal Everton scored yesterday was the first one they gave up in 6 weeks.

I think their biggest struggle will be depth if they get to Europe next year, as they don't have much cover for their defenders.

 

[phisherman]

I wasn't comparing them directly, just saying that they were great players last year for them that were largely overlooked. Pereira was their player of the year for example.

The narrative around Maguire leaving was that it would hurt their ability to defend quite a bit, but they are an even better defensive side than last year and currently have fewer goals conceded than anyone. Part of that is down to Rodgers of course, but they just have very good players back there as well. That goal Everton scored yesterday was the first one they gave up in 6 weeks.

I think their biggest struggle will be depth if they get to Europe next year, as they don't have much cover for their defenders.

How was their defence under Puel?

 

[PeteWorrell]

Ole has a 41% winning percentage managing in English football, bad enough he got sacked from a Championship team.

Luminaries like Neil Warnock and Steve Bruce have a 40% and 38% winning percentage respectively. So tell me more about these excuses for a horrible manager. You lay it out that way and there's absolutely no excuse at all. United made a horrible emotional decision when he was appointed, but they can't stick to that forever.

United also has a good first team. Not world beaters, but not this bad. The issue is that expectations have been horribly lowered because people have been watching them play dreadful football for an incompetent manager all season. I hope they never move on but it's obviously been time to move on for a while.

At least Warnock and Bruce can get their side promoted to the top tier. They are way more proven than someone like Solskjær who has done nothing outside of the mighty Norwegian league.

He may be a beloved figure in the Manchester United lore dating back to his playing days and a pretty nice guy overall but he is clearly in way over his head.

 

[hatterson]

How was their defence under Puel?

In 27 games they had 37 goals allowed. After the manager switch they allowed 10 goals in 11 games with 3 of those coming within a week of the manager change.

 

[YNWA14]

Brendan Rodgers, defensive genius.

 

[phisherman]

In 27 games they had 37 goals allowed. After the manager switch they allowed 10 goals in 11 games with 3 of those coming within a week of the manager change.

OH! So a competent manager made a difference with the same talent. However when it comes to Arsenal the players are garbage regardless of the manager. Got it!

 

[YNWA14]

OH! So a competent manager made a difference with the same talent. However when it comes to Arsenal the players are garbage regardless of the manager. Got it!

Seems that way 3 managers running.

 

[phisherman]

Seems that way 3 managers running.

Counting Ljungberg as one after 1 game lol

 

[les Habs]

With the exception of Robertson of course, I wouldn't put anyone over Chilwell right now based on form. There are arguments to be made based on talent though.

Depends on your definition of "right now". I generally agree with you if it's a form discussion, but even then I'd say Digne is right there with him.

As for talent, plenty of arguments to be made. That doesn't mean Chilwell is bad of course.

 

[YNWA14]

Counting Ljungberg as one after 1 game lol

Playing the victim because some people don't rate some of the players or prospects on Arsenal sometimes, or just happen to rate other players higher lol

 

[phisherman]

Playing the victim because some people don't rate some of the players or prospects on Arsenal sometimes, or just happen to rate other players higher lol

I learn the best from you and your team's supporters. Maybe Arsenal can have their own version of the Suarez t-shirt.

 

[Havre]

No one is expecting him to be challenging for the title, but it's not acceptable for United to have Draws against Wolves, Southampton, Sheffield, and Aston Villa while also having losses against Bournemouth, Newcastle, West Ham, and Palace.

People talk about United like there's straight trash on the team, but if you look at the actual talent on the pitch, they're better than each of those teams at virtually every position.

In regards to the midweek game.

1.) Sunday's game was against newly promoted Aston Villa. This is not Liverpool or City we're talking about.
2.) OGS sent 3 senior players on the trip, only one of whom would have been even remotely in consideration for a starting role is Lingard, but OGS made his decisions about the weekend and *then* selected the Europa league team. He intentionally left every one of the starting XI at home as well as the majority of the bench. He didn't just leave them out of the starting XI, he literally had them stay at home. For all of the senior United players save Lindard and Shaw, there was no difference between the midweek game being a Europa league game or the literal U23 team playing their usual fixtures. OGS also kept two of the main senior coaches at home so it's not like training would have been disrupted either.

And yet the best he could come up with was some weird almost 4-2-4 with Fred and Pereira in midfield which is basically guaranteed to fail if you've ever watched either of those players play for United.

I don't think we disagree much, but Utd is not the only big team that struggles. Pochettino had 5+ years to build his squad and did worse than OGS at the end. Emery had two full pre-seasons and hardly did any better (I think Arsenal are in a worse state than Utd).

I don't know what the best starting lineup for Utd would be. That midfield is a mess to me, but it would probably be something like:

DDG
Wan-Bissaka Maguire Lindelof Shaw
Fred McTominay
Pogba
James Martial Rashford

The lack of experience in that team is quite baffling. Add that next in line is often Pereira and players like Greenwood. Of course you also got the likes of Mata, Young etc., but they are not very useful on the pitch.

I like the core Utd got (like - not love). After Aarons Wan-Bissaka is probably my favourite young RB in the PL. McTominay and James have been surprisingly good. Rashford is starting to get consistent. Martial is at times very good.

And I don't think it is a coincident that Utd often struggle against so-called weaker teams. How is that midfield supposed to break down teams that are well organized? With Pogba they might have been able to do so occasionally, but without him there really is nothing. If they had added 5 goals from someone like Fernandes so far this season instead of playing Pereira things could have looked quite different.

Could OGS be upgraded? I believe so, but do I believe someone like Pochettino would just beat those teams you mention with that squad? Absolutely not. City got a far superior squad and supposedly one of the best managers in the world - they have lost to Norwich and Wolves and drawn against Newcastle this season.

To me Utd should sit tight. OGS seems to get along with the younger players and they need time. I don't understand why they hired OGS in the first place, but as that is what they did I don't understand why he should be sacked now.

 

[Stray Wasp]

Incredible how at 32 Jamie Vardy can run as much as he does. One of the best, if not the best, pressing players in the league and he just keeps going at a high intensity for 90 minutes week after week.

Vardy is playing brilliantly. One might say, however, that he's a young 32 - being a late-bloomer means his legs have less mileage on them than contemporaries who were playing three games a week from their mid-twenties.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Vardy is playing brilliantly. One might say, however, that he's a young 32 - being a late-bloomer means his legs have less mileage on them than contemporaries who were playing three games a week from their mid-twenties.

100%. Much different than someone like Rooney who was playing 2/3 games a week from the age of 17.

And Rooney's body type and lack of care for his body also were significant factors as well.

 

[Jussi]

100%. Much different than someone like Rooney who was playing 2/3 games a week from the age of 17.

And Rooney's body type and lack of care for his body also were significant factors as well.

I've said it before but that ankle injury he suffered vs Bayern ended up more costly than thought. It kept bothering him later on and he lost acceleration speed. Sure he could still pull off those ridiculous track backs where he or someone else lost possession in offense, then suddenly Rooney's back outrunning the winger on the counter and slidetackling the ball cleanly out. But he was doing less of it and with the ball he seemed slower.

 

[The Abusement Park]

I've said it before but that ankle injury he suffered vs Bayern ended up more costly than thought. It kept bothering him later on and he lost acceleration speed. Sure he could still pull off those ridiculous track backs where he or someone else lost possession in offense, then suddenly Rooney's back outrunning the winger on the counter and slidetackling the ball cleanly out. But he was doing less of it and with the ball he seemed slower.

I definitely think that didn’t help. I mean he was a pretty stocky dude, plus he drank tons and didn’t work out in the summer. Just a bad combo.

 

[Havre]

I'm not going to say mileage is irrelevant, but I think it has more to do with how hungry players are. If it is Jagr or Zanetti it is very possible to play for a long time physically, but are you disciplined enough in the off season? Do you excuse being "lazy" by saying to yourself you need rest etc.?

If you peak early the "novelty", excitement etc. of being at the top obviously grows old earlier. 32 certainly is no age physically. And this idea that you get slower is also a bit of a myth. Sprinters do not peak when they are 20.

 

[Stray Wasp]

Hunger unquestionably plays a big part in how long a player lasts - as well as how soon he breaks through in a sport where everyone is desperate to find talent as cheaply as possible. (The linked article touches on Vardy's lack of direction earlier in his career Jamie Vardy v The World: This decade's greatest story - Football365 and I've read another article in which he related how following his traumatic release by Sheffield Wednesday as a teenager he simply refused to play football altogether for a year. It's a sad fact that so many teenagers who are rejected by academies are shattered by the experience and drift out of the game altogether, forgetting that if you persist, 92 professional clubs and a pyramid of semi-professional outfits beneath offer abundant opportunity to prove your doubters wrong and make a successful career in the game).

Nevertheless, as an illustration of how playing fewer games because of scheduling reasons as opposed to injuries helps, the three years Jagr played in the KHL meant he played 155 regular season games at an inferior level, as opposed to the 246-game programme NHLers had over the same spell.

As to Zanetti, Serie A had a 34-game schedule until 2004. So from his arrival in Italy in 1995 up to that point Zanetti was spared 36 games in comparison to his contemporaries in England, France and Spain - nearly one full season's less wear and tear.

(By the bye, I wonder whether the expansion of Serie A partly explains the shortage of high-quality Italian players to emerge over the last decade. Young players tend to inconsistency, and, as your comment about sprinters touches on, they aren't always physically matured. Logically, a longer season poses developing players more awkward questions than a seasoned player - perhaps more so when the length of season you develop players to play in abruptly increases by 10%. For, if memory serves, the league's expansion was purely a reaction to scandal rather than the fruit of pre-planning.)