"Pittsburgh Penguins" sale/arena/slots/etc. thread

Artyukhin*

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http://www.hamiltonspectator.com/NA...8&call_pageid=1112274690688&col=1112274690734

Straight from the horse's mouth.

$100 million for renovations alone, and a "willingness to accept losses of $20 million a year for several years", seems to suggest you'd better wait on buying your Hamilton Penguins jersey for a bit.


lets just wait and see.

basille already making it public that he was wanting to bring the team to hamiltion tells me he is aware of the " costs "

as i said last night it probally will be 5 to 10 years before you see the Pens moved . i belive his intention are to give it a honest go in pittsburgh IF he gets a new arena .

Having a hockey crazed Canadian billionaire owner that is only going to become even wealthly over the next 5 years due to those "blackberrys" selling like crazy would make me nervous . 100 million isnt alot of money to a guy that is worth Billions .

the money he could make thru advetising alone could cover alot of that .

He has inquired about moving the team to canada and if bettemen said yes trust me they'd be breaking ground already on a new rink up here .


there is no room for Pens fans to become complacent at the gate .

i still say the gov't has to get this done or come jan07 pens fan might be dealt news they a dreading to hear alot sooner than expected .
 
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HandshakeLine

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Nov 9, 2005
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The Spectator article I posted above says that a team in Hamilton would incur about $20 million in losses per season. The Igloo makes the Pens lose about $7 million per. So, they're not really all that comparible.

I'll stick with my position that it's possible, especially if the Pens are going to just be a vanity project for Balsillie and he doesn't care about losses. It's just not the best business move.
 

HandshakeLine

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lets just wait and see.

basille already making it public that he was wanting to bring the team to hamiltion tells me he is aware of the " costs "

And him backing away from that line of talk suggests that he's aware the costs may outweigh the benefits. This changes nothing about the Pens' situation. It's still possible for the team to leave, but it's not as easy as you'd like to make it out to be.

Plus, moving the team 5-10 years down the road? You're nuts. That makes absolutely no sense. He'll either sign a lease to keep the Pens in Pittsburgh for 30+ years or he'll leave at the end of the season and take his lumps elsewhere.

No sense incurring more loses than you need to, and trying to break a lease too.
 

Corban

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Sep 25, 2006
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Pens sold. Sale is final. Just needs approved by NHL

Im listening to ESPN radio 1250, and they are talking about it now, there were statements from Mario and the new guy about keeping the team here in Pittsburgh LONG TERM
 

WesMantooth

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Jan 7, 2005
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Pittsburgh is building an arena. Mayor Ravenstahl and County Executive Dan Onorato have said it over and over again. I know everyone loves to mistrust politicians, but at this point, if it doesn't happen these two might as well just kill themselves because their lives will be over. And not just their political lives.

Site demo is happening in January.

Ground breaking in spring.

Pittsburgh's "RIM Arena" opens in 2009.

Pittsburgh Penguins win the Cup in 2010.
 
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Willis

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Aug 2, 2005
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I am sure he plans on keeping then in Pittsburgh and make a go of it. If nothing is done on the arena then this could change and he may look elsewhere, with Hamilton making sense if thats what he wants to do. I don't see that for now anyways.
 

discostu

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#1 Copps is probably comparable to the Igloo at this point in time, so it would work as a temporary home.

#2 Kitchener - Waterloo is probably in a better position than Winnipeg for a team. The population of the immidiate area Kitchener/Waterloo/Cambridge is 440,000 compared to Winnipeg at 619,000 are close, and the surrounding "TV" area is MUCH, MUCH bigger (potentially 6-7 million people). And a properly placed building on the 401 would be under 40 minutes from Mississauga (pop 695,000) and 45 minutes from Hamilton (pop 714,000), and would be easier traffic wise to get to from those locations than the ACC in downtown Toronto.

Not only that, but RIM has a vested interest in making Waterloo a more "interesting city". The other RIM guy is chancelor of the university AND invested $200 million for a world class Physics research center. The other tech companies in the town (and RIM) would surely love an NHL team when recruiting employees.

Now, the biggest hurdle is the lack of a buidling. I don't see this happening any time soon, but its not as funny as it seems at first glance.

First and foremost, the league will not allow Pittsburgh to be moved until its certain that the team will not work there, which means no slot licence. Say what you want about Bettman, but, he has always pushed for teams staying put. He was very adamant during the bankruptcy of the Sens that the team was not to be moved, and if someone bought it with that intention, that the league has the right to revoke the franchise. But, if there is no new arena, all bets are off.

I think if KW is considered for the franchise, the concept will be that it is a second Toronto team. With New York essentially holding 3 teams in its greater metropolitan area, a second Toronto team can be feasible, although, with some major issues to resolve first.

1) Terrortorial rights. I haven't read this whole thread, so, I don't know how much of this has been discussed, but, the owner has apparently put together a legal case that would permit him to challenge the NHL's terrortorial limits, that could allow a team like the Leafs or Sabres to challenge him having a team in Kitchener-Waterloo based on proximity.

2) Corporate Support. This has been an issue for Hamilton getting a franchise. While KW has a strong tech sector, achored by RIM, it's not enough of a corporate base for an NHL team, which needs its corporate clients. The problem with having a second team in the greater Toronto area, is that the new team may be considered an inferior product. The Leafs brand is extremely strong. Any company that partners with the KW franchise risks having their team as being viewed as a small-time player, that can't afford the good box seats at the ACC, and has gone the discout route. Will it be the equivalent of wining and dining your client at the Denny's, rather than four-star steakhouse?

3) Location. RIM has its roots in Waterloo, and if he is going to move the team, there is going to be a desire to keep it close to his other real estate holdings to increase their value. Unfortunately of the Kitcher-Waterloo-Cambridge area which has seen major growth, Waterloo is the farthest from the 401. Cambridge is the ideal location in terms of accesing the surrounding markets, particularly the GTA.

4) Television Rights. While the legal battle on terrortorial rights may give him the ability to move the franchise there, it may not guarantee him anything in terms of TV market. I envision an ugly mess that would have to be sorted out, with blackouts preventing overlapping regions. The television market for KW would be tiny. They'd get their immediate area, and that's it. If people in the GTA can't watch many games, it will be hard to convert them into fans.
 

Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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lets just wait and see.

basille already making it public that he was wanting to bring the team to hamiltion tells me he is aware of the " costs "

as i said last night it probally will be 5 to 10 years before you see the Pens moved . i belive his intention are to give it a honest go in pittsburgh IF he gets a new arena .

Having a hockey crazed Canadian billionaire owner that is only going to become even wealthly over the next 5 years due to those "blackberrys" selling like crazy would make me nervous . 100 million isnt alot of money to a guy that is worth Billions .

the money he could make thru advetising alone could cover alot of that .

He has inquired about moving the team to canada and if bettemen said yes trust me they'd be breaking ground already on a new rink up here .


there is no room for Pens fans to become complacent at the gate .

i still say the gov't has to get this done or come jan07 pens fan might be dealt news they a dreading to hear alot sooner than expected .

............. and Pittsburgh is going to build a new arena for the Pens w/o a long term (likely 30 year) lease, eh? Please pass some of what you are smoking if you think that is possible.

Long and short of it, new arena gets built Pens stay long term. And right now all three slots bidders have either committed to building a new arena or building one with the State (who also has committedalready), and with a very very minor finacial commitment from the Pens necessary. The land has been bought and ground breaking on a new arena begins once the Pens commit to staying no matter what this spring. If the Pens try to leave under any of those scenerios try and get league approval. Add in Toronto and Buffalo nixing any move and you have zero chance in the next three decades.
 

Pens75

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basille already making it public that he was wanting to bring the team to hamiltion

Balsillie made it public TODAY he has full intentions of keeping the team in Pittsburgh...

"I look forward to owning this team for a long time in Pittsburgh.”

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/team/press/arts/2057.0.php

A. If IOC wins the slots licence, the team HAS to stay.

B. If Pittsburgh builds an arena, the team HAS to stay.

C. If no arena is built, the team WILL move.

Is there anything else to discuss?
 

Egil

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Mar 6, 2002
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First and foremost, the league will not allow Pittsburgh to be moved until its certain that the team will not work there, which means no slot licence. Say what you want about Bettman, but, he has always pushed for teams staying put. He was very adamant during the bankruptcy of the Sens that the team was not to be moved, and if someone bought it with that intention, that the league has the right to revoke the franchise. But, if there is no new arena, all bets are off.

I think if KW is considered for the franchise, the concept will be that it is a second Toronto team. With New York essentially holding 3 teams in its greater metropolitan area, a second Toronto team can be feasible, although, with some major issues to resolve first.

Agreed!

1) Terrortorial rights. I haven't read this whole thread, so, I don't know how much of this has been discussed, but, the owner has apparently put together a legal case that would permit him to challenge the NHL's terrortorial limits, that could allow a team like the Leafs or Sabres to challenge him having a team in Kitchener-Waterloo based on proximity.

Obviously a problem. I assume that K-W is still within the Leafs rights region, so this would be a major issue. I think the legal challenge would be done to get the Leafs to set a price, and isn't the prefered route.

2) Corporate Support. This has been an issue for Hamilton getting a franchise. While KW has a strong tech sector, achored by RIM, it's not enough of a corporate base for an NHL team, which needs its corporate clients. The problem with having a second team in the greater Toronto area, is that the new team may be considered an inferior product. The Leafs brand is extremely strong. Any company that partners with the KW franchise risks having their team as being viewed as a small-time player, that can't afford the good box seats at the ACC, and has gone the discout route. Will it be the equivalent of wining and dining your client at the Denny's, rather than four-star steakhouse?

Partially agreed. The team would never be as profitbale as the Leafs (just as the Mets arn't as good as the Yankees, the Devils and Islanders pale to the Rangers, etc.). Of any market in the NHL, Toronto is IMHO, the obvious choice for multiple teams. However, the advantage of K-W over putting a second team in Toronto itself IS lessening this impact. K-W companies, both tech, Insurance and Automotive, would NOT feel that pinch, and the team would be able to get "second tier" money from Toronto companies. Its a similar thing to Hamilton (the key being a team in the GTA that isn't branded Toronto), as it gives the team a local identity to mittigate the "second class" effect.

3) Location. RIM has its roots in Waterloo, and if he is going to move the team, there is going to be a desire to keep it close to his other real estate holdings to increase their value. Unfortunately of the Kitcher-Waterloo-Cambridge area which has seen major growth, Waterloo is the farthest from the 401. Cambridge is the ideal location in terms of accesing the surrounding markets, particularly the GTA.

I can't imagine a team in K-W that didn't have their rink on the 401. RIM is based out of Waterloo, but its quicker to get from Waterloo to the 401 than it is to get from Downtown Ottawa to Scotiabank place. The key to the 401 is that it makes the team accesable to Western Toronto, Hamilton, London and all the rest of the 50,000 or so pop towns all along the 401. Having come from Ottawa, I still don't undertstand how K-W didn't get amalgamated by Harris, as Waterloo, Kitchener and Cambridge are all connected to each other (and share a common, albeit terrible, public transit system).

4) Television Rights. While the legal battle on terrortorial rights may give him the ability to move the franchise there, it may not guarantee him anything in terms of TV market. I envision an ugly mess that would have to be sorted out, with blackouts preventing overlapping regions. The television market for KW would be tiny. They'd get their immediate area, and that's it. If people in the GTA can't watch many games, it will be hard to convert them into fans.

As part of 1), I assume that GTA TV rights would be part of the package. A key to any K-W team succeeding is pulling in some fans from Mississauga and Hamilton, and that simply will not happen without TV rights. K-W is currently completely in the Leafs region so that we get Leafs games even during national games on TSN (ie, its within the small "local" region radius). Without GTA TV rights, the team would not work in K-W, but with them, I think its a top - 15 market in the NHL.
 

Artyukhin*

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Balsillie made it public TODAY he has full intentions of keeping the team in Pittsburgh...

"I look forward to owning this team for a long time in Pittsburgh.”

http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com/team/press/arts/2057.0.php

A. If IOC wins the slots licence, the team HAS to stay.

B. If Pittsburgh builds an arena, the team HAS to stay.

C. If no arena is built, the team WILL move.

Is there anything else to discuss?



http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_y...7vLYF?slug=ap-penguins-sale&prov=ap&type=lgns

Lemieux said
"I know his hope is to get a new arena deal and keep the team here in Pittsburgh for the long-term."


City and Allegheny County officials, along with Gov. Ed Rendell, have urged the team to agree to another deal to build the arena if Isle of Capri does not get the casino. Land for the project has been acquired across the street from Mellon Arena.

However, Lemieux's group has declined to accept the alternative plan, saying it is bound to the Isle of Capri deal.








Now i know all about HOPE . i see it every day .

personally ill wait till the end of the year then ill tell you how it all goona play out .either way it will be great to get this over with and a Final answer .
 

Pens75

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Plan A. If IOC wins the slots licence, arena will be built, the team is FORCED to stay.

Plan B. If Pittsburgh builds an arena, the team is FORCED to stay.

Plan C. If no arena is built, the team WILL move.

Is there anything else to discuss?
 

Jaded-Fan

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Mar 18, 2004
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http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_y...7vLYF?slug=ap-penguins-sale&prov=ap&type=lgns

Lemieux said
"I know his hope is to get a new arena deal and keep the team here in Pittsburgh for the long-term."


City and Allegheny County officials, along with Gov. Ed Rendell, have urged the team to agree to another deal to build the arena if Isle of Capri does not get the casino. Land for the project has been acquired across the street from Mellon Arena.

However, Lemieux's group has declined to accept the alternative plan, saying it is bound to the Isle of Capri deal.








Now i know all about HOPE . i see it every day .

personally ill wait till the end of the year then ill tell you how it all goona play out .either way it will be great to get this over with and a Final answer .

The Pens CAN NOT support any plan but IOC by their contract with them. They would be breaching their contract if they did otherwise. The words above do not mean anything more than that. I do not know, but suspect, that absent that language the Pens would have said ok to plan B as an alternative where they make a mere $4 mil. less a year on the deal. That said, neither you or I will never know for 100% sure because legally the Pens can not say.
 

Creator

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Aug 24, 2006
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Scenario #91

The sale is approved by the board of governors. (very Important) and they cannot put condidtions on this sale without placing conditions upon themselves.

The Arena option or plan "a" of the ioc is not completed. Plan B will take too long to complete and a lease agreement is not in place-that would be stupid.

The Pens move to Hamilton

The RIM Group joins the big silent partner in all this Hamilton talk-part of the arena makeover TIM HORTONS(original home of the Coffee Giant).

Copps Colliseum gets a new name (see item above)

Feathers are russled but then TIM HORTONS threatens to pull all of the corporate money they add to the NHL (big bucks)

The Territory rights will become a non issue.

The Penguins now become the Hamilton Penguins but I think for marketing reason they may opt for a new name change similar to the Coyotes move.

I would siggest that the forum start a new thread about the new name.

I am going to suggest the Hamilton Ice Caps

Sorry Pittsburgh-You had your chance to do something and now its too late..
 

Pens75

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Scenario #91

The sale is approved by the board of governors. (very Important) and they cannot put condidtions on this sale without placing conditions upon themselves.

The Arena option or plan "a" of the ioc is not completed. Plan B will take too long to complete and a lease agreement is not in place-that would be stupid.

The Pens move to Hamilton

The RIM Group joins the big silent partner in all this Hamilton talk-part of the arena makeover TIM HORTONS(original home of the Coffee Giant).

Copps Colliseum gets a new name (see item above)

Feathers are russled but then TIM HORTONS threatens to pull all of the corporate money they add to the NHL (big bucks)

The Territory rights will become a non issue.

The Penguins now become the Hamilton Penguins but I think for marketing reason they may opt for a new name change similar to the Coyotes move.

I would siggest that the forum start a new thread about the new name.

I am going to suggest the Hamilton Ice Caps

Sorry Pittsburgh-You had your chance to do something and now its too late..

:biglaugh:
 

SteelCitySaviour

Registered User
Nov 12, 2005
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Pittsburgh PA
Scenario #91

The sale is approved by the board of governors. (very Important) and they cannot put condidtions on this sale without placing conditions upon themselves.

The Arena option or plan "a" of the ioc is not completed. Plan B will take too long to complete and a lease agreement is not in place-that would be stupid.

The Pens move to Hamilton

The RIM Group joins the big silent partner in all this Hamilton talk-part of the arena makeover TIM HORTONS(original home of the Coffee Giant).

Copps Colliseum gets a new name (see item above)

Feathers are russled but then TIM HORTONS threatens to pull all of the corporate money they add to the NHL (big bucks)

The Territory rights will become a non issue.

The Penguins now become the Hamilton Penguins but I think for marketing reason they may opt for a new name change similar to the Coyotes move.

I would siggest that the forum start a new thread about the new name.

I am going to suggest the Hamilton Ice Caps

Sorry Pittsburgh-You had your chance to do something and now its too late..

Why would Plan B take any longer to come into fruition than the IOC plan? The other two casinos have already committed to Plan B, so where would the delay come from? And why would Tim Horton's pull any of their funding? That makes absolutely no sense from a business standpoint. All this conspiracy talk is non-sense. :banghead:

Sorry Hamiltion- You had your chance to get an NHL team 20 years when you had a decent arena.
 

Timmy

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Feb 2, 2005
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Why would Plan B take any longer to come into fruition than the IOC plan? The other two casinos have already committed to Plan B, so where would the delay come from? And why would Tim Horton's pull any of their funding? That makes absolutely no sense from a business standpoint. All this conspiracy talk is non-sense. :banghead:

Sorry Hamiltion- You had your chance to get an NHL team 20 years when you had a decent arena.


I kinda thought that by labelling it Scenario #91 that he was kidding...
 

HandshakeLine

A real jerk thing
Nov 9, 2005
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This thread makes me wonder if some people should be allowed to comment on business matters if they can't even balance their checkbook.:dunce:
 

Pens75

Pens Fan Since 1975
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You know what's really sad?

As an American, a Pittsburgh'er, and a hockey fan... I was deeply saddened when Quebec and Winnipeg lost their teams. To see Canadian hockey fans show zero loyalty and zero respect to a pioneer hockey city like Pittsburgh is a disgrace.

Pittsburgh has a hockey history as old and rich as any city in Canada...

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=198796

If you were REALLY a hockey fan, you would never support a Penguins relocation.
 

Creator

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Aug 24, 2006
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Why would Plan B take any longer to come into fruition than the IOC plan? The other two casinos have already committed to Plan B, so where would the delay come from? And why would Tim Horton's pull any of their funding? That makes absolutely no sense from a business standpoint. All this conspiracy talk is non-sense. :banghead:

Sorry Hamiltion- You had your chance to get an NHL team 20 years when you had a decent arena.

Plan B does not have a deal with the Penguins-please note that the lease has not been extended in case an arena deal is decided. The Pens hold the cards in this game of poker.
 

Hawker14

Registered User
Oct 27, 2004
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first, i hope the pens don't leave pittsburgh. i definitely want to see more teams in canada but no fans should have their team ripped away from them, especially the great hockey fans in pittsburgh.

that said, bob mckenzie is probably the most connected journalist in hockey. when he mentioned hamilton and waterloo, i felt a lump in my throat. he would have immediately shot it down if it's not on the table. the fact balsillie recently extended his NHL rights option for the Copps Coliseum is telling, as he's definitely getting his ducks in order.

as i see it, the pens will only stay if the isle of capri builds them a free arena. if it comes to the proposed plan B, balsillie will look to relocate the team. i feel for pens' fans right now since it's out of their hands and up to the government.

i don't want to get ahead of myself, but i disagree with the poster above who commented that a second team in southern ontario would have trouble drawing corporate support. if it was just a regular team like the coyotes, i could see it. but if sidney crosby and evgeny malkin are playing in hamilton, or waterloo, or wherever, fans in southern ontario will flock to this team.

one thing i believe to be a fact is that there is only one thing people in toronto love more than the leafs, and that's a winner. if the pens are as good as i think they'll be in a couple seasons, they will have no trouble competing financially with the leafs. they may never make as much, but they'll do just fine with sidney crosby as their poster boy.

again i don't want to see the pens move, but there is more than enough money in southern ontario to make a top notch team, with superstars like crosby, extremely profitable.

that shovel better hit the ground in pittsburgh in december or there will be alot of rightfully P'd fans in western PA.
 

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