Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap - Wakin' up too early

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Tom Hanks

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So I fully intended to armchair-scout Zucker tonight before it turned into the Sid & Geno extravaganza. I didn't pay as close of attention as I would have liked...from what I saw he looked OK?

Also have a weird-ish thought related to him. Feel free to laugh at it. Given that his wife wants to stay in MIN and Guerin & JR are tight - could we arrange some sort of outright rental for the guy? Like get him for a 1st then trade him back to Minny for a 2nd this summer? I don't know if I want to commit to him for 4 more years with Jake returning and Poulin ascending anyway.

How fast do you think every team would be calling Bettman for an inquiry
 

Dipsy Doodle

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I mean, Zucker's fine but he's not a needle mover and I don't really understand what would make him a better option than a guy like Toffoli, especially since he'd likely cost a lot more.
 
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ChaosAgent

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How fast do you think every team would be calling Bettman for an inquiry

Pending UFAs waive their NTCs with the handshake agreement that they could come back to the selling team, right? That's a thing that happens and I'm not totally pulling it out of my Adams?

If so, I don't really think there's that big of a difference between that and a handshake deal to return a player under contract after the season. But yeah, there'd probably be an inquiry.
 

Flying Dego

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Apr 30, 2013
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I would like us to pony up for one of Saad, Rakell or Palmeiri.

I have some concerns for acquiring Zucker/Toffoli/JPG all for different reasons. To be fair to JPG I'm just wary with what happened with Brassard. I would hate to repeat it and give them more assets.
 

Ryder71

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I consider Toffoli plan C. "C" as in if JR can get him on the cheap meaning Galchenyuk and a small sweetener of maybe an older NHL ready low level prospect like Adam Johnson or Thomas Di Pauli. No interest in spending a high draft pick on Toffoli. Rather save those good draft picks for bigger fish. Very indifferent to Toffoli...I'm completely fine with getting him if its for Galchenyuk plus something small. More than that....no interest.
I consider Toffoli a last resort. I'm just not all that impressed. A lot of potential deals would have to fall through IMO for him to be the guy.
 

Ryder71

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I mean, Zucker's fine but he's not really a needle mover and I don't really understand what would make him a better option than a guy like Toffoli, especially since he'd likely cost a lot more.
Zucker is more of a North-South player, has a much quicker first step (and is a better skater in general). Zucker also has a better release. Toffoli has better playmaking skills but we're not really in short supply of that.
 

Ryder71

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Foligno was mentioned recently here (by Richard I believe). Thought he accorded himself nicely. Good speed, physical, nice goal, solid showing tonight.
 
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Tender Rip

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Honestly, I think with how the team is doing JR should wait as long as he can before we do anything. I've said so all along basically, but admittedly got a little more jumpy after Guentz injury.

Now though...

A number of the guys that we are speculating on have been injured (Saad, Zucker) or are in positions where they're pretty hard to judge (like Toffoli on a baaad LA team). My preferred acquisitions are Palmieri (who seemingly isn't getting traded) and Saad with retention. But before any move for Saad, he needs to come back from injury and come back well.

The guys we could consider trading are at their lowest evaluations because of injuries (Schultz and Bjugstad) as well as injury and playing in a position he just cannot be effective in (Chucky). We cannot really deal those guys at worse times.

On the other hand, if the team is getting healthy and rolling, then you might also see Chucky and Bjugstad play like meaningful NHL players, as well as Schultz if he makes it back in time for such conversations to be meaningful.
I mean, Chucky is getting close to 0.5 PPG having played more than half the season on the 4th line with usually 2 AHL'ers. It takes a productive game or two from him and you can hardly even blame his numbers that much. He was pretty good on McCann's line, but didn't get it done in his 5 periods of hockey with Geno. Hence, total failure. He is better than what he has shown for sure, and if he is to get a return as if he is a cap/dump, I'd rather keep him for depth as a Miro Satan option.

If we did not make any moves at all, we could be looking at:

McCann Sid Simon
Kahun Malkin Rust
ZAR Blueger Tanev
Chucky Bjugstad Horny

In itself this group, if our best players play like our best players, is good enough to win the cup. That's pretty clear when we were the most succesfull team in the league for the duration of Sid's injury. Of course you'd like an addition with Sid, but with what we have and the acquisition costs likely being high, it really has to be the right person to have a positive impact, and for that we really need to know what we need.

So, lets give it some more time with McCann and Simon there to check that out, and lets wait until Bjugstad has had some time to reclaim a spot. Its not like we are in any danger of not making the playoffs.
 

madinsomniac

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I still think its a crying shame that JGP picked this season to magically have an 18% shooting percentage. He is the perfect fit at 3C, speedy, blocks 70 shots a year, doesn’t need Pp time, great on draws...
If he was shooting 5% like last year he would be affordable, but no way we get him now...

Getting him would mean mcCann stays in the top six and Bjuggy could be moved for a better winger
 

Tom Hanks

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Foligno was mentioned recently here (by Richard I believe). Thought he accorded himself nicely. Good speed, physical, nice goal, solid showing tonight.

The question would be where does he play and price. I think the first move should be the big fish and sort it out from there. There is room for 1 more if both Chucky and Bjugstad are traded

Assume Geno and BART line don’t change at this stage

L1 Sid with a combo of Trade, Simon, McCann, Bjugstad maybeeeee.

The left overs could be a combo of Hornqvist, Bjugstad, Simon, McCann

Then Galchenyuk (assume traded) and Lafferty/Agozinno/Blandisi (assume one is up and scratched).

Did I miss anyone?
 

Ryder71

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The question would be where does he play and price. I think the first move should be the big fish and sort it out from there. There is room for 1 more if both Chucky and Bjugstad are traded

Assume Geno and BART line don’t change at this stage.

L1 Sid with a combo of Trade, Simon, McCann, Bjugstad maybeeeee.

The left overs could be a combo of Hornqvist, Bjugstad, Simon, McCann

Then Galchenyuk (assume traded) and Lafferty/Agozinno/Blandisi (assume one is up and scratched).

Did I miss anyone?
I think that's a pretty good take. If you trade Chucky and or Bjugstad that opens up a spot for a guy like Foligno or some such player. The trade Richard brought up was Zucker and Foligno as a package. One stop shopping I guess. So maybe a 1st, another pick, a mid tier prospect and one of Chucky or Bjug, something along those lines. If I'm being inaccurate he can correct me.

Not that it will definitely go down, but I don't think it's a stretch to believe JR and Billy G couldn't pull a deal off.

edit: After looking at it more and more I think Foligno would do well here. Good skater and size, physical, plays fast, solid away from the puck. He would be an exceptional under the radar get IMO.
 
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Peat

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Sneaky. I like it :).
Except.... I am not enormously keen on Zucker really. Always worries me when a player has one season stand out greatly from his regular body of work (17-18). This year his numbers before the injury were good, but also because of a higher shooting percentage than he ever had before. I really don't know if he is going to move the needle compared to for instance McCann.

Zucker's career season coincides hugely with his largest amount of PP time. His 5v5 stats are pretty consistent.

How fast do you think every team would be calling Bettman for an inquiry

No quicker than they did for Vegas retaining on Brassard, or the Avalanche buying out Orpik so the Caps could resign him (and I think there were some calls about the latter one, but it happened).

edit: After looking at it more and more I think Foligno would do well here. Good skater and size, physical, plays fast, solid away from the puck. He would be an exceptional under the radar get IMO.

Foligno's 5v5 numbers are off the chart this season and I dunno whether that's "Awesome! Career year! He'll be great!" or whether it means he'll come here for too much then underperform and we'll all be sad.
 

Ryder71

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Zucker's career season coincides hugely with his largest amount of PP time. His 5v5 stats are pretty consistent.



No quicker than they did for Vegas retaining on Brassard, or the Avalanche buying out Orpik so the Caps could resign him (and I think there were some calls about the latter one, but it happened).



Foligno's 5v5 numbers are off the chart this season and I dunno whether that's "Awesome! Career year! He'll be great!" or whether it means he'll come here for too much then underperform and we'll all be sad.
He's a Sully type player and plays with a physical edge. I know he's having a career year and I don't expect that pace to continue, But he's a very solid all around depth player (as you alluded to). I'd love to get him and I don't throw the word ''love'' around loosely. As a secondary acquisition I think he'd be great. Just depends on the price. He doesn't hurt you if he doesn't score. From what I've seen he's very good at managing the puck.
 
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Ryder71

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If I had to hold onto one of Chucky or NB I might want to hold on to NB. He's been good at FO's in the past and is a RHS. Is more versatile, has better reach and when he's on his game can be solid cog here. I'd prefer to upgrade if possible. But if only one of them are to be moved, Chucky would be the guy.

Primary acquisition targets: Palmieri (although he's injured now I believe)
Saad, Zucker then Kreider

Secondary guys: Foligno, Smith, Namestikov then Toffoli (please no)

Ideally I'd like to get one righty and one lefty, but one from each of these groups would be nice. Except Toffoli, have to hold my nose, but better than nothing (maybe).
 
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Tender Rip

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Zucker's career season coincides hugely with his largest amount of PP time. His 5v5 stats are pretty consistent.

Fair enough, sort of. He got the same amount of time the year after though and produced about as much on the PP, yet dropped 12 goals and 22 points.

If you only look at ES (which I agree with unless it is a RH shot option) and compare to a guy like Brandon Saad for instance, there is really not much of a comparison I think.

Ultimately, I don't think Zucker is today a better LW at ES than McCann, and in that case I cannot see a reason to move for him.
 

Peat

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Fair enough, sort of. He got the same amount of time the year after though and produced about as much on the PP, yet dropped 12 goals and 22 points.

If you only look at ES (which I agree with unless it is a RH shot option) and compare to a guy like Brandon Saad for instance, there is really not much of a comparison I think.

Ultimately, I don't think Zucker is today a better LW at ES than McCann, and in that case I cannot see a reason to move for him.

Handwaving a certain amount of form Vs class away, I think Zucker is a bit better due to being a better possession driver but yeah, basically the same outcomes as McCann this season.

But I don't think you're getting better than McCann and I think it's okay to get that guy even at a big price tag, as right now we just need another McCann quality option to give us some proper scoring depth and options.
 

StutzlesTapeJob

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Said it in another thread and others said it here. I want to see how McCann and Simon play with Sid against a variety of opponents and styles in the coming weeks.

many move we make that requires giving up a 1st 2nd round pick for a rental makes me squirm. The cup window is closing, but Sid and Geno are still difference makers seemingly for a few more years. There would be a value in having some future top 6 talent learn from them before taking the reigns. So unless we are getting a major skill upgrade (top line player), or the price is right (always on board for moves at the right price) - my desire to see “rent” a slight upgrade or depth body vs keep assets has decreased.

my only concern with this team, is that playoff hockey is a different beast and I still worry about if we are too small to match a team like the Caps level of size speed and physicality. I admit I have been wrong in thinking having many smaller crafty players like Simon, Kahun, Bleuger etc would be this effective.

In my mind perhaps our best use of assets might be trying to create a defensive minded, physical 3rd line that could matchup against other teams 1st or 2nd lines. Genos line has shown they can win top line matchups. If sids line is going against typical other 3rd lines, the need to add a dynamic scorer drops. That might take less assets and could land a player for a longer term than a rental.
 

Tom Hanks

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Said it in another thread and others said it here. I want to see how McCann and Simon play with Sid against a variety of opponents and styles in the coming weeks.

many move we make that requires giving up a 1st 2nd round pick for a rental makes me squirm. The cup window is closing, but Sid and Geno are still difference makers seemingly for a few more years. There would be a value in having some future top 6 talent learn from them before taking the reigns. So unless we are getting a major skill upgrade (top line player), or the price is right (always on board for moves at the right price) - my desire to see “rent” a slight upgrade or depth body vs keep assets has decreased.

my only concern with this team, is that playoff hockey is a different beast and I still worry about if we are too small to match a team like the Caps level of size speed and physicality. I admit I have been wrong in thinking having many smaller crafty players like Simon, Kahun, Bleuger etc would be this effective.

In my mind perhaps our best use of assets might be trying to create a defensive minded, physical 3rd line that could matchup against other teams 1st or 2nd lines. Genos line has shown they can win top line matchups. If sids line is going against typical other 3rd lines, the need to add a dynamic scorer drops. That might take less assets and could land a player for a longer term than a rental.

We already have a “defensive minded, physical 3rd line that could matchup against other teams 1st or 2nd lines.”
 
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PensandCaps

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Foligno was mentioned recently here (by Richard I believe). Thought he accorded himself nicely. Good speed, physical, nice goal, solid showing tonight.

he's not top 6 material though, even top 9 is a bit pushing it.

hes a good 4th line LW, nothing more. bit of a fluke year for him so far .
 

Empoleon8771

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I really don't like the idea of just settling on McCann-Crosby-Simon as the top line. This team deserves as much as it needs from JR to take it to the next level. Not only does settling on McCann-Crosby-Simon not help the team, it also sends the message that this team would still be a cup contender had Guentzel not been on the team, which is just insane to me.

The absolute minimum this team has to do is replace Guentzel with a 50 point top-6 forward. You're doing the team a disservice by not giving them the help they need to go on a deep run. The goal for the lineup should be get something as close as you can get to:

Zucker/Saad-Crosby-Simon
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Kahun-McCann-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Tanev

That should be the goal forward lineup for next year, but for this year, you should be trying to get as close as possible.
 

TimmyD

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Saad Sid Rakell
Kahun Malkin Rust
Simon McCann Hornqvist
ZAR Blueger Tanev

Then when Jake is healthy

Saad Sid Rakell
Jake Malkin Rust
Kahun McCann Hornqvist
ZAR/Simon Blueger Tanev

Make it happen JR
 

PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
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Fair enough, sort of. He got the same amount of time the year after though and produced about as much on the PP, yet dropped 12 goals and 22 points.

If you only look at ES (which I agree with unless it is a RH shot option) and compare to a guy like Brandon Saad for instance, there is really not much of a comparison I think.

Ultimately, I don't think Zucker is today a better LW at ES than McCann, and in that case I cannot see a reason to move for him.

agreed but, a zucker trade allows us to put McCann at C and run 4 solid centres.

Bjugstad at 3C is gonna suck.
 

PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
May 22, 2015
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Saad Sid Rakell
Kahun Malkin Rust
Simon McCann Hornqvist
ZAR Blueger Tanev

Then when Jake is healthy

Saad Sid Rakell
Jake Malkin Rust
Kahun McCann Hornqvist
ZAR/Simon Blueger Tanev

Make it happen JR

So Dumo for Rakell? thats what it would take about.
 

Empoleon8771

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Saad Sid Rakell
Kahun Malkin Rust
Simon McCann Hornqvist
ZAR Blueger Tanev

Then when Jake is healthy

Saad Sid Rakell
Jake Malkin Rust
Kahun McCann Hornqvist
ZAR/Simon Blueger Tanev

Make it happen JR

That is crazy overkill for what the Penguins should be targeting. They don't need 2 wingers on par with Rakell and Saad, especially ones that are controlled for next year.
 
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