Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Where we talk about former posters

[Gurglesons]

Gourde has recent 64 and 48 point seasons under his belt. McCann couldn't even beat out Jankowski for a center spot to start this year.

The idea of moving a natural center who scored 74 points in 55 games last year to wing because of an underwhelming 16 games, BEFORE returning to the line combination he had when scoring 74 points in 55 games, is premature to say the least.

That's a move you make when you've exhausted all other options. We haven't, by a long shot.

Gourde had those seasons at wing. Also, I’m confused what Gourde and McCann have to do with Cirelli and Bleuger.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Gourde has recent 64 and 48 point seasons under his belt. McCann couldn't even beat out Jankowski for a center spot to start this year.

The idea of moving a natural center who scored 74 points in 55 games last year to wing because of an underwhelming 16 games, BEFORE returning to the line combination he had when scoring 74 points in 55 games, is premature to say the least.

That's a move you make when you've exhausted all other options. We haven't, by a long shot.

He didn't play with them for 55 games. It would have be approximately 15 games.

 

[Peat]

Super unlikely but man, imagine signing a 27 year old Barkov in 2022. That could blow the window wide open. Florida isnt going anywhere anytime soon so maybe he leaves.

If he's there, we should try. I don't think it'd be that hard to sell Geno in the off-season on moving him to wing so he can play for Barkov.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Depends on what a significant discount is. I don't see going to $8.7mil or even $8mil as that big of a discount or anything that's unreasonable to suggest. I have doubts that he could get that much more on the open market. You want to keep the guy around so if he wants to stay at $9.5, then that $1-1.5mil is not that big of a deal. That said, looks like Ovechkin wants a raise to the $10.5mil range and I would not support Malkin getting a similar raise.

I don't think suggesting though that $7.1 to $8.7mil (obviously a play on numbers as a general stand-in) is an insult to the guy relative to what he brings to the table at the moment. Cap adjusted, $8mil is about what Joe Thornton took at a similar age. Joe Pavelski took $7mil. That said, there are some pretty decent names coming up in that UFA class. Obviously, Malkin would be #1 on the list to get but if he's demanding $10.5mil or more...I maybe check with Barkov and a few others to see if that's the best route for the money.

That said, I believe Malkin has gotten fair value his entire career here. He didn't leave money on the table like Sid did.

Yes he did. All three did.

 

[HandshakeLine]

They're minimum salary roster fillers. Of course they're not always seeing the ice. When they go, they'll be filled with more minimum salary roster fillers. Their relevance to Virtanen is basically zero and I don't know why you're suggesting otherwise.

I'm not saying they're equivalent. Just that this roster has lots of deadweight that won't be coming back, so I don't think Virtanen's cap hit is some dealbreaker. It's cheap enough to wiggle out of or bury if his play is terrible.

That said, I wouldn't trade Petts for him, no way. I think Petts could fetch something better. If we're trading a top 4 LD, I'd hope we get something a bit more significant.

 

[66-30-33]

Malkin-Barkov-whocares

That would be pretty good?

How would we sign a 10M Barkov? also besides Letang who we getting rid of? I guess Rust.

 

[66-30-33]

Sadly, I think the difference is, Ovechkin is still putting up big goal totals. Couple of years ago, I would have fought tooth and nail suggesting Ovie and Malkin had similar value but today, I think Ovie is clearly worth more. That doesn't mean Geno is not worth anything but as you suggested, I think I would be wanting a pay cut from the $9.5mil. I struggle even accepting another $9,5mil deal. I could see dropping to $8.7mil but more preferably, $7.1mil (lol) as I think that allows us the flexibility we need while providing good value for both parties. If Malkin could take two $3mil wingers and be a PPG player and a force on the PP, that's one thing but it's increasingly obvious that he is going to be needing more help from more capable players. That's not something we should be paying a premium for IMHO. That said, I want the guy around.

I still think the best overall route would be to keep him at center now and next year then when his contract is renewed to match Sid's term, bump him to Sid's RW and look for a new 2C (that can start now if need be).

Jake-Sid-Geno
Zucker-2C-Kappy

If JR was here that 2C would be Duchene at 4M.

Jake-Sid-Geno
Zucker-Duchene-Kappy

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

There's way too much discussion on Malkin, and there's way too much criticism. He's had far worse stretches in his career, and so has Crosby. This kind of talk comes up every time the Pens don't win every game and Malkin has turnovers that people are able to point to. He's always been an easy target. Then we get the psychoanalysts diagnosing that he wants out of Pittsburgh or is moping around. It's the same every time. He hasn't been great but he's not near the problem people are making this out to be. He'll be fine. He's not 2012 Malkin anymore but he's not 3C behind Blueger. Moving him to wing will not work and shouldn't be done. You live and die by your strengths. He'll be fine. I wouldn't pay him 9.5 on his next deal and the Pens won't. I don't think Malkin will ask for that either. He's never held the Pens over a barrel and they hold all the cards now. It's clear he wants to end his career here and maybe retire with Sid.

 

[Tom Hanks]

There's way too much discussion on Malkin, and there's way too much criticism. He's had far worse stretches in his career, and so has Crosby. This kind of talk comes up every time the Pens don't win every game and Malkin has turnovers that people are able to point to. He's always been an easy target. Then we get the psychoanalysts diagnosing that he wants out of Pittsburgh or is moping around. It's the same every time. He hasn't been great but he's not near the problem people are making this out to be. He'll be fine. He's not 2012 Malkin anymore but he's not 3C behind Blueger. Moving him to wing will not work and shouldn't be done. You live and die by your strengths. He'll be fine. I wouldn't pay him 9.5 on his next deal and the Pens won't. I don't think Malkin will ask for that either. He's never held the Pens over a barrel and they hold all the cards now. It's clear he wants to end his career here and maybe retire with Sid.

Has he?

 

[SEALBound]

Generally agree. I don’t think Malkin should get a pay increase and Id advocate he take a reasonable cut ($1m per seems reasonable).

I disagree that Malkin has gotten fair value. Both he and Sid have taken hometown discounts. Sid more than Geno, all things considered, but had he wanted to, Geno could have gotten $11m per on his last contract if he wanted.

Going double digits at that point in time was unheard of. That would be like $13-14mil today. I think only Ovechkin was over the $10mil mark. Toews and Kaner came after that...I think $9.5mil was a good value for both sides. He could have gotten more, maybe, but it's not like he took the Sid level discount. Sid could have got the $10+mil and he didn't. % of the cap is a good tool to judge and it took what was relatively normal at that time. I call that market value. Not like he took $7mil when he could have earned $10mil. If you want to argue over $500k or so, then fine.

Super unlikely but man, imagine signing a 27 year old Barkov in 2022. That could blow the window wide open. Florida isnt going anywhere anytime soon so maybe he leaves.

Hey, Florida, Malkin will resign, Barkov won't. Barkov has a NTC too. Could be an interesting discussion.

I also find it odd that someone would argue that asking Malkin to take what he's worth may be "insulting" to him if he's worth dramatically less than what he's being paid right now. You have lifers or near lifers in the NHL taking pay cuts at the end of their careers literally all of the time. Joe Thornton dropped from $8 million to $5 million in 2018. Chara went from basically $7 million to $5 million with potential bonuses to $2 million with potential bonuses. Brodeur took a big paycut in terms of percentage of cap on his last contract with the Devils (13.33% to 7.5%, the real money difference was only $5.2 million vs $4.5 million though). Doan did basically the same thing as Chara, took a decent paycut and supplemented it with potential bonuses.

I feel like the best option for Malkin's next contract is something like 2 years at $7 million a year, with like $2+ million in potential bonuses based on performance. If Malkin's good with that contract, we have no problems and we're good to go. If he's not and wants a pay raise like Ovi wants, I'm only going to entertain that if his play warrants it. If it doesn't, I'll wish him the best of luck and let him walk like the Sharks did with Marleau.

Exactly, plenty of older franchise guys have taken the cut after long, lucrative careers. $7.1mil is fair cap hit, $2mil in performance bonuses, I mean that's pretty good for being 35.

Teddy Bluegar is the next William Karlsson.

God I hope so...and I hope he realizes that potential here, not in Seattle.

Yes he did. All three did.

Sid, yes. Malkin and Letang, no. Both got paid what they were worth. Geno at $8.7 or Letang at <6.5mil, and we can start talking about taking discounts. Both were big time deals.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Has he?

Yeah. He had an unreal slump in 2010-11. He also was awful most of the 18-19 season. He slumped in the 08 finals (he was hurt but the same things were said then). Every time it happens the narrative is like a broken record. He's faced trade calls since 2008. Media and fan ridicule since 2008. He's always the fall guy.

 

[66-30-33]

Has he?

Not that I am aware of but he's older and didn't work out much or have any training camp, plus the pandemic and family on his mind. I think next season he will be back to somewhat his normal self, whatever version his age lets him play but I am not sure if he will be himself this season but meh, he's done a lot for the Pens and our window is pretty much done at this point so I'll take whatever comes our way. But we need a new voice in the room next season, we NEED A NEW VOICE! in the room, nobody gives a flying f*** what Sully says anymore.

 

[Pittsburgh1776]

Going double digits at that point in time was unheard of. That would be like $13-14mil today. I think only Ovechkin was over the $10mil mark. Toews and Kaner came after that...I think $9.5mil was a good value for both sides. He could have gotten more, maybe, but it's not like he took the Sid level discount. Sid could have got the $10+mil and he didn't. % of the cap is a good tool to judge and it took what was relatively normal at that time. I call that market value. Not like he took $7mil when he could have earned $10mil. If you want to argue over $500k or so, then fine.



Hey, Florida, Malkin will resign, Barkov won't. Barkov has a NTC too. Could be an interesting discussion.



Exactly, plenty of older franchise guys have taken the cut after long, lucrative careers. $7.1mil is fair cap hit, $2mil in performance bonuses, I mean that's pretty good for being 35.



God I hope so...and I hope he realizes that potential here, not in Seattle.



Sid, yes. Malkin and Letang, no. Both got paid what they were worth. Geno at $8.7 or Letang at <6.5mil, and we can start talking about taking discounts. Both were big time deals.

Malkin could have gotten 11M on the open market his last deal.

 

[dogthateats]

The lowest that I would give Malkin is 3 years $10m per

 

[KIRK]

I also find it odd that someone would argue that asking Malkin to take what he's worth may be "insulting" to him if he's worth dramatically less than what he's being paid right now. You have lifers or near lifers in the NHL taking pay cuts at the end of their careers literally all of the time. Joe Thornton dropped from $8 million to $5 million in 2018. Chara went from basically $7 million to $5 million with potential bonuses to $2 million with potential bonuses. Brodeur took a big paycut in terms of percentage of cap on his last contract with the Devils (13.33% to 7.5%, the real money difference was only $5.2 million vs $4.5 million though). Doan did basically the same thing as Chara, took a decent paycut and supplemented it with potential bonuses.

I feel like the best option for Malkin's next contract is something like 2 years at $7 million a year, with like $2+ million in potential bonuses based on performance. If Malkin's good with that contract, we have no problems and we're good to go. If he's not and wants a pay raise like Ovi wants, I'm only going to entertain that if his play warrants it. If it doesn't, I'll wish him the best of luck and let him walk like the Sharks did with Marleau.

Funny, but I'm not sure I'd be running to pay THIS Malkin 7m per season.

If this is a temporary thing and he picks it up, then you talk over the summer. If it's not, then I think you say 'we don't want to insult you . . . show us this was a one year fluke due it being a COVID world and we'll extend you during the season at a number that ignores the COVID skewed season'.

I see the Rosthlisberger analogy, and I think one of the biggest differences is this:

All things being equal, the Steelers are looking to move on. The money isn't really a source of disagreement.

All things being equal, the Penguins will NOT be looking to move on from Malkin. Only way that happens is if his ask and the Penguins view of fair or a little over fair market value are just on two different planets.

 

[KIRK]

Malkin could have gotten 11M on the open market his last deal.

Malkin could've named his price on his last deal.

I think your 'sell', if you need to justify him taking less based on his current play continuing, is to make his total deal-- whatever you extend him at PLUS the 8 years at 9.5M per-- equal an AAV of 8.7M.

He's made 76 million when this deal is done. He wants 3 more years. So, 11 years at 8.7M is 95.7M.

Do the math, and you get a 3 year deal at 6.57M per to get the total 11 years to 8.7M per.

Again, this is IF you need to sell Malkin on taking a lower number based on current play continuing and want the 'sell' to be intellectually justifiable in a way that can avoid being construed as insulting.

 

[Darren McCord]

You’re missing the point.

Completely.

Nobody said at any point their situation is the same. They are merely two examples of stars aging and how you answer the global question of how much loyalty an org owes an aging star.

Ooo I get the point. My point is it uanessacry to put Malkin in there. Why not Sid? Sid is more equivalent to Ben.

This was an attempt to put Malkin into more trade rumors.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Ooo I get the point. My point is it uanessacry to put Malkin in there. Why not Sid? Sid is more equivalent to Ben.

This was an attempt to put Malkin into more trade rumors.

nah

 

[KIRK]

Ooo I get the point. My point is it uanessacry to put Malkin in there. Why not Sid? Sid is more equivalent to Ben.

This was an attempt to put Malkin into more trade rumors.

Sid isn't more similar to Ben.

There's no Steelers player who's like Sid in terms of the Yohe's idiotic analogy.

Not even Geno is like Ben, because as I said, all things being equal and where money isn't the issue, the Penguins preference is to keep Malkin

 

[Darren McCord]

Sid isn't more similar to Ben.

There's no Steelers player who's like Sid in terms of the Yohe's idiotic analogy.

Not even Geno is like Ben, because as I said, all things being equal and where money isn't the issue, the Penguins preference is to keep Malkin

my point was the question was stupid. I was responding to someone who said I didn’t get it. I did and it was trash.

 

[BobCole]

Malkin just played his best 20 minutes of the season. He was the most noticeable player on either team. Love to see it.

 

[Peat]

I'm not saying they're equivalent. Just that this roster has lots of deadweight that won't be coming back, so I don't think Virtanen's cap hit is some dealbreaker. It's cheap enough to wiggle out of or bury if his play is terrible.

That said, I wouldn't trade Petts for him, no way. I think Petts could fetch something better. If we're trading a top 4 LD, I'd hope we get something a bit more significant.

But those guys will be replaced by more guys on the same wage. Them disappearing doesn't give you Virtanen money. That comes from vanishing McCann or Tanev or Kapanen.

Malkin-Barkov-whocares

That would be pretty good?

How would we sign a 10M Barkov? also besides Letang who we getting rid of? I guess Rust.

Zucker is the positional casualty and clears more cap - but I guess you probably couldn't keep Rust either. Realistically it'd be carnage, but you'd goddamn do it and figure it out afterwards.

 

[66-30-33]

So...Arvidsson anyone? Zucker is probably done.

 

[wheelz87]

So. Taylor Hall time now?

 

[IrishTiger]

Who is the best LW’er we could get to replace Zucker (assuming he is out long term) for Dumo or Petts?