Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Stirring The Pot Edition

[Jacob]

Wallmark signed for a bit more than Jankowski & Rodrigues. Maybe he wouldn’t have signed here but I’d prefer him over those 2.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Lafferty should be ahead of Rodrigues depth-wise. Probably Jankowski too until he proves otherwise.

I don't think Jankowski. Lafferty hasn't exactly proven himself even close to Jankowski levels yet.

 

[Gurglesons]

All JR had to do with Marleau and Schultz is not re-sign them. They didn't need to be replaced because they didn't play valuable roles last year, they just needed to not be resigned. It took no effort to let them go and deserves no credit.

JJ was JR's own stupid decision from Day One, and he paid handsomely for it. Great to see him go, but that was cleaning up his own indefensible mess and LOOOOOONG overdue.

Matheson, Ceci, and Jankowski are all crapshoots coming off of garbage years. The fact that they're young doesn't mean that they're good. "Adding" Jankowski - a forward who produced worse than Ruhwedel - as our 3C isn't cause for celebration because a) he's playing above his head and b) there were better options that signed for comparable money.

JR didn't "get rid of" MM's contract. MM didn't have a contract this summer until JR QO'd him.

The only player we added with any positive value is Kapanen, and we overpaid hugely for him because he's unproven in the role we a) need him for and b) paid a high price for him to play.

Technically, strictly analytically two of those players are coming off career seasons in Ceci and Matheson and Jankowski’s was a clear cut example of unluckiness tanking two otherwise decent seasons.

I think Ceci is a horrible addition, but Matheson and Jankowski are tbh low risk deals outside of Matheson’s contract which in reality means nothing.

I dunno. I think the Ceci signing tanks any positives potentially for our season, but if he is not a regular, I think it is a fine season. I think we just all know that won’t happen.

I still don’t get the obsession with criticizing any of Kapanen, Jankowski, or Rodrigues. All of those moves give us a better forward group then we had last year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Who?

Like Jacob said, Wallmark would have been better if we wanted to go cheap. I would have preferred Wennberg too if we were simply going to dump our cap savings in the toilet by signing Ceci.

Technically, strictly analytically two of those players are coming off career seasons in Ceci and Matheson and Jankowski’s was a clear cut example of unluckiness tanking two otherwise decent seasons.

I think Ceci is a horrible addition, but Matheson and Jankowski are tbh low risk deals outside of Matheson’s contract which in reality means nothing.

I dunno. I think the Ceci signing tanks any positives potentially for our season, but if he is not a regular, I think it is a fine season. I think we just all know that won’t happen.

I still don’t get the obsession with criticizing any of Kapanen, Jankowski, or Rodrigues. All of those moves give us a better forward group then we had last year.

What metrics are you using to suggest Ceci and Matheson are coming off career years? Matheson gets straight up abused and Ceci needs to be sheltered too. So now, again, we have 2 defensemen we need to protect with capable blueliners.

No forward who scored 7 points in 56 games should be automatically assumed to be a capable 3rd line center the very next season. No lack of luck is accountable for that kind of poor production.

Kapanen is it in terms of an actual upgrade, and he's anything but a lock to fill the role(s) we need him to fill well. This off-season's been a disaster IMO. We had real problems we needed to address and not only did we not deal with any of them effectively (short of getting rid off JJ and Bjugstad), we created whole new problems.

 

[Gurglesons]

Like Jacob said, Wallmark would have been better if we wanted to go cheap. I would have preferred Wennberg too if we were simply going to dump our cap savings in the toilet by signing Ceci.



What metrics are you using to suggest Ceci and Matheson are coming off career years? Matheson gets straight up abused and Ceci needs to be sheltered too. So now, again, we have 2 defensemen we need to protect with capable blueliners.

No forward who scored 7 points in 56 games should be automatically assumed to be a capable 3rd line center the very next season. No lack of luck is accountable for that kind of poor production.

Kapanen is it in terms of an actual upgrade, and he's anything but a lock to fill the role(s) we need him to fill well. This off-season's been a disaster IMO. We had real problems we needed to address and not only did we not deal with any of them effectively (short of getting rid off JJ and Bjugstad), we created whole new problems.

Wennberg wasn’t available to us. Signed with his former GM. Wallmark is a shade of Bleuger and McCann.

EV RAPM xG Differential.

Kapanen is a good player who was worth a 1st given his skill set and production. Adding Hallander sucks, but from what has been reported by @Jesse multiple times, the org did not favor him as fans / twitter minds did. We know how that story goes with the Penguins, so I could care less about the addition tbh.

I think it is also hyperbole to say Kapanen doesn’t provide what this team needs. That simply isn’t true. He just doesn’t provide what you personally think are the most detrimental aspects of this team. I know people think we should have gotten more for Kapanen, but we’ve seen no similar talents moved for less.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Wennberg wasn’t available to us. Signed with his former GM. Wallmark is a shade of Bleuger and McCann.

Players only sign with their former GMs?

I don't know what a shade of Blueger and McCann is. They're quite different players, and I'm sure both of them are better than Jankowski.

EV RAPM xG Differential.

Kapanen is a good player who was worth a 1st given his skill set and production. Adding Hallander sucks, but from what has been reported by @Jesse multiple times, the org did not favor him as fans / twitter minds did. We know how that story goes with the Penguins, so I could care less about the addition tbh.

I think it is also hyperbole to say Kapanen doesn’t provide what this team needs. That simply isn’t true. He just doesn’t provide what you personally think are the most detrimental aspects of this team. I know people think we should have gotten more for Kapanen, but we’ve seen no similar talents moved for less.

Okay, so is this the metric du jour? Because it seems like people have a new one to hone in on every time they want to argue a player's case when most info and the eye test suggests they're no good. I don't know where to find this or how to compare it to others. Being able to see how it applies to Penguins from last year - whose performances we know a lot about - would help provide a frame of reference.

Ceci's a running joke for everyone within and without the advanced stats community, so if that's the argument for Matheson too, it's a little hard to swallow.

We know that Kapanen didn't click in Toronto with their 2 elite centers. We also know that he didn't play on the PP. The two things we need most out of a scoring RW we have no idea whether he'll be able to provide here. We know he's young, fast, and can score 35-45 points a year on the 3rd line - but that also sounds an awful lot like an RW McCann.

 

[Peat]

Like Jacob said, Wallmark would have been better if we wanted to go cheap. I would have preferred Wennberg too if we were simply going to dump our cap savings in the toilet by signing Ceci.

Wallmark has less good NHL seasons than Jankowski. We've been stung with getting players after one good season which turned out to be the only good one. Not saying he mightn't turn out to be a better option but this is really six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Wennberg simply isn't available to us at the same cap hit. He'd be losing money and no longer with a guy he trusts.

 

[Gurglesons]

Players only sign with their former GMs?

I don't know what a shade of Blueger and McCann is. They're quite different players, and I'm sure both of them are better than Jankowski.

McCann is a strong defensive center that is wish washy offensively as is Wallmark.

Okay, so is this the metric du jour? Because it seems like people have a new one to hone in on every time they want to argue a player's case when most info and the eye test suggests they're no good. I don't know where to find this or how to compare it to others. Being able to see how it applies to Penguins from last year -whose performances we know a lot about - would help provide a frame of reference.

Ceci's a running joke for everyone within and without the advanced stats community, so if that's the argument for Matheson too, it's a little hard to swallow.

We know that Kapanen didn't click in Toronto with their 2 elite centers. We also know that he didn't play on the PP. The two things we need most out of a scoring RW we have no idea whether he'll be able to provide here. We know he's young, fast, and can score 35-45 points a year on the 3rd line - but so can McCann.

Toronto’s “elite” centers are goal scorers and last year Toronto mainly used Kappy on his off wing. Kapanen has produced at a 40 pt pace two years in a row. He’s not a PP solution, but he is one of the best skaters not named McDavid in the league and plays a pressure game that Sid and Malkin like from their wingers. His IQ is the big question, but he is a useful player that fits anywhere in the line-up.

You can just go by xGA if you want.

 

[CrosbyMalkin]

Technically, strictly analytically two of those players are coming off career seasons in Ceci and Matheson and Jankowski’s was a clear cut example of unluckiness tanking two otherwise decent seasons.

I think Ceci is a horrible addition, but Matheson and Jankowski are tbh low risk deals outside of Matheson’s contract which in reality means nothing.

I dunno. I think the Ceci signing tanks any positives potentially for our season, but if he is not a regular, I think it is a fine season. I think we just all know that won’t happen.

I still don’t get the obsession with criticizing any of Kapanen, Jankowski, or Rodrigues. All of those moves give us a better forward group then we had last year.

I agree with all this besides the Ceci hate. I would be right on board with you if we signed Ceci to a 4 year $16 million deal and expected him to be in our top 4. The thing is at one year and $1.25 million Ceci is a bargain. Ceci is a huge upgrade over JJ, Schultz, and Ruhwedel. Look at Ceci's quality of opponent at 83% which means he is facing the other teams best forwards on a nightly basis. Those other 3 are all below 50% and Ruhwedel is something like 12%. Ceci also has very strong PK results and is 78% for that which is much better than those guys. Even with playing against the other teams best forwards Ceci finished with 52% EV def which JJ couldn't finish near that playing against much lesser opponents. So while offensively Ceci does not bring much he is still better than JJ in those areas also while getting 55% defensive zone starts against top forwards. All take the 26 year old better skating defenseman over any of those 3 defenseman. Ruhwedel has never faced quality opponents and has been a fringe depth player his whole career. I like him as our depth back up but he is not close to Ceci as a player. Ceci has played high minutes against the best forwards for over 4 years now and while not great analytics it is world's better than JJ's while playing the tougher assignments. Bring Ceci's quality of opponent down from that 83% to in the 40's% and with 15 minutes a game and I bet his analytics go way up. They already are better than anything JJ or the recent Schultz has given us. I personally love the signing for that price.

Also for you and others that say Ceci is going to play 18 to 20 minutes a game show me how that is possible? Letang plays 25+ minutes a night and Marino is going to play 20 minutes a night. That leaves 14 and change at most for Ceci with 2:30-3 minutes of that being PK which he is really good at. Dumoulin, Matheson, and Pettersson will take up the other 60 minutes on the left. You can say when injuries happen Ceci will play that much and he will and I will be happy to have a 3rd pairing defenseman that can play 20 minutes a night in those cases which Ruhwedel never could handle that.

I personally love this whole off-season. Rutherford did an incredible job considering he was given the directive to shed real money to under $75 million. To be able to shed that much salary while still building a younger, faster, and more skilled team is magic. I can't find many places on the roster that aren't better with the replacement over the player going out besides the DeSmith in and Murray out. In almost all areas the addition is better than the subtraction. As I am watching many of the other playoff teams in the East being shredded while not under the same $75 million constraints shows me how good Rutherford was this off-season.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Wallmark has less good NHL seasons than Jankowski. We've been stung with getting players after one good season which turned out to be the only good one. Not saying he mightn't turn out to be a better option but this is really six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Has he? Looks to me like Wallmark has just as many good seasons as Jankowski and one less abysmal season - and that's kind of critical when the bad season is the most recent one.

Wennberg simply isn't available to us at the same cap hit. He'd be losing money and no longer with a guy he trusts.

Wennberg costed more, but we ended up burning a good portion of the difference with Ceci anyway.

Our cap allotment and priorities this off-season baffle me. We aren't learning from past mistakes, at all.

 

[TooManyHumans]

I just wanted to say that I am really enjoying this discussion. There aren't many places on the internet where you can get this kind of back and forth without it immediately devolving into insults and trash talk.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

McCann is a strong defensive center that is wish washy offensively as is Wallmark.

I'll happily take Wallmark's "wishy washy" offense over whatever it was Jankowski did last year.

Toronto’s “elite” centers are goal scorers and last year Toronto mainly used Kappy on his off wing. Kapanen has produced at a 40 pt pace two years in a row. He’s not a PP solution, but he is one of the best skaters not named McDavid in the league and plays a pressure game that Sid and Malkin like from their wingers. His IQ is the big question, but he is a useful player that fits anywhere in the line-up.

You can just go by xGA if you want.

Like I said, Kapanen looks an awful lot like an RW McCann. I like JM, but I'm sure as hell not paying a 1st and a good prospect for an unknown top 6 quantity like that. It was poor resource management that didn't give us any real answers, and now we're up the creek if any do become available because we no longer have any valuable futures to offer.

I'll check out xGA later and see how Ceci and Matheson fare relative to players we have a better handle on.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'll happily take Wallmark's "wishy washy" offense over whatever it was Jankowski did last year.

Well, it’s easy to pick out one specific year and say that is what that player is. Jankowski spent large portions of his time with players that had similar production and was one year removed from being a very good 3rd/4th liner on the best team in terms of standings in the West. I mean, I wanted Wallmark, but the gap between Wallmark and Jankowski is a hair nail.

Like I said, Kapanen looks an awful lot like an RW McCann. I like JM, but I'm sure as hell not paying a 1st and a good prospect for an unknown top 6 quantity like that. It was poor resource management that didn't give us any real answers, and now we're up the creek if any do become available because we no longer have any valuable futures to offer.

I'll check out xGA later and see how Ceci and Matheson fare relative to players we have a better handle on.

What do you mean by better handle on?

We have futures to offer. We have Poulin, Legare, and most of our picks outside a 1st next year. Judging by the market, we were smart to get ahead of what happened so we didn’t end up like Edmonton in terms of goal.

I also think Kapanen’s projection is much more Rust than McCann.

 

[Peat]

Has he? Looks to me like Wallmark has just as many good seasons as Jankowski and one less abysmal season - and that's kind of critical when the bad season is the most recent one.

Wallmark has two meaningful NHL seasons. In one, he scored 1.03 p/60 and had a -11.82 rel GF% at 5v5 - or 17 points and a -10 while playing 12 minutes a night. Bit unfortunate going by possession stats but still, I don't think there's any way that can be called good.

Wennberg costed more, but we ended up burning a good portion of the difference with Ceci anyway.

Our cap allotment and priorities this off-season baffle me. We aren't learning from past mistakes, at all.

Portion but not all. I don't think we can say they're in the same price bracket here.

Now, it's a damn good question as to whether we should be paying so much to our depth dmen while going bargain basement for so many of our bottom 6. But the question of whether there were better options signed for comparable money is a different one. Wallmark's a good comparable and I don't think people would be cursing if we'd got him rather than Jankowski, but Wennberg isn't.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I just wanted to say that I am really enjoying this discussion. There aren't many places on the internet where you can get this kind of back and forth without it immediately devolving into insults and trash talk.

That's exactly what a [perjorative] from [location] would say. I [active verb] your [most loved parent] in their [orifice or geographical location].

 

[Tom Hanks]

I agree with all this besides the Ceci hate. I would be right on board with you if we signed Ceci to a 4 year $16 million deal and expected him to be in our top 4. The thing is at one year and $1.25 million Ceci is a bargain. Ceci is a huge upgrade over JJ, Schultz, and Ruhwedel. Look at Ceci's quality of opponent at 83% which means he is facing the other teams best forwards on a nightly basis. Those other 3 are all below 50% and Ruhwedel is something like 12%. Ceci also has very strong PK results and is 78% for that which is much better than those guys. Even with playing against the other teams best forwards Ceci finished with 52% EV def which JJ couldn't finish near that playing against much lesser opponents. So while offensively Ceci does not bring much he is still better than JJ in those areas also while getting 55% defensive zone starts against top forwards. All take the 26 year old better skating defenseman over any of those 3 defenseman. Ruhwedel has never faced quality opponents and has been a fringe depth player his whole career. I like him as our depth back up but he is not close to Ceci as a player. Ceci has played high minutes against the best forwards for over 4 years now and while not great analytics it is world's better than JJ's while playing the tougher assignments. Bring Ceci's quality of opponent down from that 83% to in the 40's% and with 15 minutes a game and I bet his analytics go way up. They already are better than anything JJ or the recent Schultz has given us. I personally love the signing for that price.

Also for you and others that say Ceci is going to play 18 to 20 minutes a game show me how that is possible? Letang plays 25+ minutes a night and Marino is going to play 20 minutes a night. That leaves 14 and change at most for Ceci with 2:30-3 minutes of that being PK which he is really good at. Dumoulin, Matheson, and Pettersson will take up the other 60 minutes on the left. You can say when injuries happen Ceci will play that much and he will and I will be happy to have a 3rd pairing defenseman that can play 20 minutes a night in those cases which Ruhwedel never could handle that.

I personally love this whole off-season. Rutherford did an incredible job considering he was given the directive to shed real money to under $75 million. To be able to shed that much salary while still building a younger, faster, and more skilled team is magic. I can't find many places on the roster that aren't better with the replacement over the player going out besides the DeSmith in and Murray out. In almost all areas the addition is better than the subtraction. As I am watching many of the other playoff teams in the East being shredded while not under the same $75 million constraints shows me how good Rutherford was this off-season.

I’ve asked you a couple times and maybe you have me on ignore but why do you expect Ceci to be playing 14 mins a night given the following:

The last 5 seasons the Penguins have had 6 to 8 D men have an ATOI of over 17-18 minutes. Ceci has never had an ATOI under 17 minutes.

 

[SEALBound]

Has he? Looks to me like Wallmark has just as many good seasons as Jankowski and one less abysmal season - and that's kind of critical when the bad season is the most recent one.

Wennberg costed more, but we ended up burning a good portion of the difference with Ceci anyway.

Our cap allotment and priorities this off-season baffle me. We aren't learning from past mistakes, at all.

Signings like Wennberg are tough because he's was going to get multiple offers and get to choose his location. It's not like he was sitting around hoping the Penguins would offer him a contract and then begrudgingly signed in Florida after a long wait. I always say, with FAs, it takes two to tango. We have to want them and they want to have to come here. We may have never entered his mind as a possibility. That said too, it's a little disingenuous to suggest that signing Ceci in someway made it so we couldn't sign Wennberg. I don't think you intended that though.

Wallmark is a 4C. I don't see him being anything more than that here. That would require another center signing or the trust in Bleuger to progress to a capable 3c, which I'm not saying is impossible. With Jankowski, we've at least seen an ability to play at the capable 3c level. Wallmark, not so much and they signed for basically the same. Given the choice, I would rather take the chance on Jankowski. My hope for him is to be a 15-15 guy for us. With McCann and another, I don't think that is unrealistic. Not only that, but he's a RFA too so...whatever that means to us.

That's exactly what a [perjorative] from [location] would say. I [active verb] your [most loved parent] in their [orifice or geographical location].

So hot. You can't get good erotica like that anywhere else.

 

[HandshakeLine]

It's the bespoke erotica touch. Handcrafted from traditional algorithms to suit the target audience.

 

[SEALBound]

It's the bespoke erotica touch. Handcrafted from traditional algorithms to suit the target audience.

You have a gift my friend. Don't hide that in a bushel basket.

 

[EightyOne]

You have to wonder...

... If these guys were so usable and so cheap...

... Why they became UFA in the first place...

 

[KIRK]

Hope for Poulin to kill it in camp/pre-season and run with this;

Jake/Zucker-Sid-Rust
Jake/Zucker-Geno-Poulin/Kapanen
McCann-TB-Poulin/Kapanen
Tanev-Jankowski-Sceviour
Lafferty/ZAR/E-Rod

Jake will be playing with Sid. Knowing that . . .

Jake-Sid-Kap
Poulin-Geno-Rust
Zucker-McCann-Tanev

That's my top 9.

9 best players.

EDIT: Still don't get all those who see Zucker-Malkin-Rust as a good idea . . .

 

[MayorofWBS]

Well, it’s easy to pick out one specific year and say that is what that player is. Jankowski spent large portions of his time with players that had similar production and was one year removed from being a very good 3rd/4th liner on the best team in terms of standings in the West. I mean, I wanted Wallmark, but the gap between Wallmark and Jankowski is a hair nail.

What do you mean by better handle on?

We have futures to offer. We have Poulin, Legare, and most of our picks outside a 1st next year. Judging by the market, we were smart to get ahead of what happened so we didn’t end up like Edmonton in terms of goal.

I also think Kapanen’s projection is much more Rust than McCann.

We don't have many futures. That well is getting pretty dry. For 2021, we have our 2nd, 5th and 3 7ths. Our best assets are Poulin and POJ and they may have more important roles that we need them to fill in the next two to three years between the ED and expiring contracts.

 

[sauce66871]

I don’t hate the Ceci add. I honestly figured it was him or Bowey just looking at JR’s youth movement.

I would think if there are any more additions it would be Athanasiou, with a more realistic chance of Drake Caggiula.

 

[Gurglesons]

We don't have many futures. That well is getting pretty dry. For 2021, we have our 2nd, 5th and 3 7ths. Our best assets are Poulin and POJ and they may have more important roles that we need them to fill in the next two to three years between the ED and expiring contracts.

In my estimation this year and last year with COVID is likely a write off regardless of how well positioned we put ourselves to win a cup.

We have enough picks in 2021 and 2022 and prospects to bring in a top six RW if we feel it is a dire need. Whether that be a rental like Palms or a long term solution.

 

[66-30-33]

EDIT: Still don't get all those who see Zucker-Malkin-Rust as a good idea . . .

I think Zucker-Crosby-Granlund is a good idea.