Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - JJ and Letang drama

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Randy Butternubs

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Go on an git out that other thread

You aren't wrong but I think it would at least HELP to not insist on QBing the thing from up top. And no this isn't some kind of knock on Letang.

I think both are capable of being fine powerplay players but they've always run kind of a wonky setup when it comes to utilizing their strengths. Just my opinion.

But yeah a legit dual threat on the left wall would go a LONG way. But like... that's just kinda one of those things everyone wants, huh?

What does UFA group 6 mean? Can we sign Mermis next year?

If we're gonna bury our 4th line then yeah, no goer. But not every team does. I know that we're a team with incredible offensive firepower that we want to use as often as possible, but I don't think it's the only way to run business. And if we want a bottom six that contributes, maybe we can't do that.

I'm a lot happier with him on a third scoring line than a notional fourth because of all it implies, but it all comes down to usage. And we need to think about how to use ours.

This said - I think the thing about ZAR's injury making way for Poulin is simply that it opens up a roster spot without needing to make annoying decisions about waivers. Stick ZAR on IR and there we go.

Much like the case with Letang, where less minutes probably leads to better overall impact/performance, we need to give Sid and Geno a legitimate 3rd line to take matchup and production pressure off of their lines. More so than ever, as the big three continue to get older.

I don't like McCann at 3C, but I'd be fine seeing if he could reach the next level as a more offensively oriented 3LW. Especially if we could somehow land Kapanen for that 3RW spot. Still need a relatively significant 3C though, and guys like Bjugs, Lafferty and Blueger ain't it.

Nah. Bleuger is fine. And paying McCann 3 mil to be a bottom six winger is certainly not what JR is talking about doing this summer.

Strongly disagree on Blueger. He's a fine 4C but doesn't bring the offensive capability this team needs out of their 3C, imo. Not even close.

As for McCann, I'm fine with letting him walk, but if we can get out from Hornqvist's contract, I'd be much more open to keeping McCann for a few more years to see if he can reach the next level.

My dream is Dumoulin for Nylander. And Rust for Klefbom. With Murray thrown in one of the deals.

No futures wasted. Sell high and market Cup winning players to teams looking for playoff success.

Bleuger has scored at a comparable rate to 3Cs that have won us a cup.

When you play him with 15-25 pt guys he won’t produce.

TB is a smart player, playing with two door knobs. Zar kills offense and Tanev is just wreckless. Tanev is like a Kunitz without skill. I think TB could have actually made the third line of Marleau and Horny work if Sullivan wasn't so obsessed with his 4th line.

This is where I don't buy into the points/60 or "scoring rates" stuff. Blueger just doesn't have what it takes to bring the offensive element needed to take pressure off of the Sid and Geno lines, imo. If he had the potential you think he does, surround him with better talent on the 4th line to we can get that element back that we had in the back to back Cups too. (Surround him with better talent anyway) ZAR's stats be damned, play Lafferty or Simon at 4LW. Lafferty/Simon-TB-Tanev should be a good to great 4th line. If Blueger's got the potential you and others seem to believe he has, let him play the Cullen role as the wildcard 4C.

Still need a revamp of the 3rd line though. If we keep McCann, I think he's gotta play 3LW. I've never liked McCann at C. I don't like the idea of keeping Hornqvist to be an expensive 3RW/PP specialist either, though he holds all the cards because of the contract we handed him.

This is another in a long line of reasons why keeping that BART line intact no matter what made no sense. Blueger has shown a bit of creativity, vision and playmaking ability at this level. But it's going to be all for naught when he's playing with two guys who can't take advantage of that offensively.

Give Blueger more offensive talent and I think we'll see a guy who can still play a solid defensive game, but also be closer to a 30+ point guy than a ~20 point guy next to ZAR and Tanev.

Going with Blueger as the 3C is basically admitting that your 3rd line isn't cup contender caliber IMO. I don't disagree that I'd like to see him with more talent, but going with him as the 3C isn't nearly good enough unless you have someone like 2016 Kessel on his line.

You need a difference maker on that 3rd line. McCann-Blueger-Hornqvist doesn't cut it. If you want Blueger as your 3C, you likely need to get rid of both McCann and Hornqvist and get a wing duo like Hagelin-Kessel for it. Tanev-Blueger-Nylander is a 3rd line I'd support with Blueger on it, but you need a guy like Nylander for it.

Guentzel - Crosby
New Winger - Malkin
Zucker - Blueger

Those combos could work (Rust being next to Malkin, in case it seems like Malkin's got no one).

That could be a way it works, but I question if Zucker has the playmaking talent to make that 3rd line effective enough. I want a line driver for that 3rd line, I don't know Zucker is that.

I keep beating a dead horse with him, but I think you need someone like Domi for that 3rd line. If you don't want Domi, I think Nylander also works.

Zucker is, always has been, and should continue to be a top-6 winger. Especially with how good he's looked alongside both Sid and Geno.

I know people hate the line because Geno couldn't find the back of the net on his 500 shots against the Habs, but I really don't have any problem with the Zucker-Geno-Rust line moving forward. Would I prefer a more "sniper" kind of guy to play opposite either Zucker or Rust? Sure, but I think that trio is more than fine for a 2nd line.

The only way I'd move one of Zucker or Rust out of the top-6 is if we managed to make one of the deals people are floating around and acquired Nylander or Rakell (or my preference, Arvidsson or Ehlers).

Anybody here watching the NBA playoffs? I jumped on the Raptors bandwagon last year but there are some intriguing match-ups in the west this year.

Doncic/Porzingis vs. Leonard/George
Lillard vs. James/Davis

That's sports at its best.

Nah. That shit sucks and no wonder your Kessel loving ass likes it.

I’m perplexed how St Louis just won a cup with Tyler Bozak and Oskar Sundqvist as a center unit and Teddy Bleuger is not a “championship caliber” 3C.

And I’m the most obnoxious proponent of a proper 3C here. Teddy’s game and scoring ability is it.

Puljujarvi would look good with Blueger. I'm sure of it.

:laugh:

If he thinks Montreal is boring and the weather is shitty, there is roughly 0% chance he would like Pittsburgh.
 

Empoleon8771

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I’m perplexed how St Louis just won a cup with Tyler Bozak and Oskar Sundqvist as a center unit and Teddy Bleuger is not a “championship caliber” 3C.

And I’m the most obnoxious proponent of a proper 3C here. Teddy’s game and scoring ability is it.

Bozak had 38 points in 72 games in the year the Blues won the cup. Not exactly sure how he doesn't count as a championship caliber 3C.
 
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Gurglesons

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Bozak had 38 points in 72 games in the year the Blues won the cup. Not exactly sure how he doesn't count as a championship caliber 3C.

I mean, he played most of his minutes with Thomas, Steen, Schwartz and Perron. I think Teddy puts up way different numbers if you know his top line mates aren’t Lafferty, Tanev, ZAR and Simon.
 

Peat

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The Isles just seem to be getting better and better. :laugh:

Still wish we'd have somehow gotten Pageau instead of Brassard from Ottawa. Not that Pageau was as readily available, but man, what a swing and a miss with Brassard.

Can't help but think JGP would have been available for that trade value too. And that yes, it'd have made a big difference to us.

On the plus side, they're gonna have *real* fun clearing cap this summer.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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I just don't see Blueger as a 40-45pt center, regardless of who his teammates are. Is Hornqvist going to help boost the guy by nearly 20pts? Hornqvist's value is by creating space and cleaning up rebounds for players who can actually take advantage of said space. Blueger's not that guy. Who is the LW? McCann? I like McCann at wing much better than at center, but it's still up in the air as to whether or not McCann ever breaks through to that next level of production or impact.

I don't know man. I hate the idea of Blueger as the "ah well, got no better options" 3C. We need to do better than that.
 

Gurglesons

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I just don't see Blueger as a 40-45pt center, regardless of who his teammates are. Is Hornqvist going to help boost the guy by nearly 20pts? Hornqvist's value is by creating space and cleaning up rebounds for players who can actually take advantage of said space. Blueger's not that guy. Who is the LW? McCann? I like McCann at wing much better than at center, but it's still up in the air as to whether or not McCann ever breaks through to that next level of production or impact.

I don't know man. I hate the idea of Blueger as the "ah well, got no better options" 3C. We need to do better than that.

No one in Pittsburgh is going to be a 40-45 pt center.
 

Peat

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I mean, he played most of his minutes with Thomas, Steen, Schwartz and Perron. I think Teddy puts up way different numbers if you know his top line mates aren’t Lafferty, Tanev, ZAR and Simon.

The samples aren't big (using 40 minutes over last two seasons minimum), but Blueger's p/60 with the following works out to a 30 point pace (minimum, lot higher in some cases) -

Rust, Kahun, Galchenyuk, Cullen, Hornqvist

And below it with the following

Kessel, Malkin, Wilson, ZAR, Tanev, Simon, McCann, Lafferty

The split isn't perfect but by and large if you give Blueger guys with skill, he will produce.

The particularly notable thing to me is you see him make a lot of dangerous looking passes but he gets few assists. Improving on that- either better passes, or passing to better players, makes a big difference. Case in point - ZAR's ixG/60 is higher with Blueger than any other forward over the last two years, but he only scores 66% of the goals he should with Blueger. Way ZAR's been shooting lately, that ain't on Teddy.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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No one in Pittsburgh is going to be a 40-45 pt center.
Currently? Yeah, agreed. That's why we need to fix the 3rd line, starting with a 3C. That's the kind of center Sid and Geno are going to need, now more than ever, to take production and matchup pressure off of them.

It's not going to be easy, and I don't think this FO is the one to solve the mystery, but if you want another shot at making a run at the Cup, you start there. Blueger's not a good enough option, no matter how much you, I, or anyone else likes him. He's just not a good enough player for what this team needs.
 

Gurglesons

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Currently? Yeah, agreed. That's why we need to fix the 3rd line, starting with a 3C. That's the kind of center Sid and Geno are going to need, now more than ever, to take production and matchup pressure off of them.

It's not going to be easy, and I don't think this FO is the one to solve the mystery, but if you want another shot at making a run at the Cup, you start there. Blueger's not a good enough option, no matter how much you, I, or anyone else likes him. He's just not a good enough player for what this team needs.

The only player that has ever produced at that rate here without playing top six minutes is Staal. It simply ain’t happening.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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The only player that has ever produced at that rate here without playing top six minutes is Staal. It simply ain’t happening.
Then sell everything off, because without a legitimate 3rd line of that caliber, I don't see this team having nearly the impact depth it's gonna need to hoist itself out of the muck of mediocrity and get back to contending again. Plain and simple, you land a 3C of that caliber and build the 3rd line around him, or you accept that this team's going to continue it's downward trend of the past 3 years and circle the drain until they're the Wings or Kings. /shrug
 

Gurglesons

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Then sell everything off, because without a legitimate 3rd line of that caliber, I don't see this team having nearly the impact depth it's gonna need to hoist itself out of the muck of mediocrity and get back to contending again. Plain and simple, you land a 3C of that caliber and build the 3rd line around him, or you accept that this team's going to continue it's downward trend of the past 3 years and circle the drain until they're the Wings or Kings. /shrug

Bleuger is everything we need in a 3C if we surround him with talent.
 

Big Friggin Dummy

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Bleuger is everything we need in a 3C if we surround him with talent.
Nah. He's a good 4C, and can arguably fill the role Cullen had during the back to backs, but he's not the 3C option this team needs. He's just not.

And if we can't surround him with talent on the 3rd line, there's no way we can surround him with talent on the 4th line. Depth is a huge issue, and until we fix it and give Sid/Geno the support they need, we're just gonna go in circles with hovering around the playoff cut-off and being trashed in the 1st round if we make it.
 

Gurglesons

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Nah. He's a good 4C, and can arguably fill the role Cullen had during the back to backs, but he's not the 3C option this team needs. He's just not.

And if we can't surround him with talent on the 3rd line, there's no way we can surround him with talent on the 4th line. Depth is a huge issue, and until we fix it and give Sid/Geno the support they need, we're just gonna go in circles with hovering around the playoff cut-off and being trashed in the 1st round if we make it.

He’s basically been what Bonino was here when he plays with Bonino type linemates.
 

Peat

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Bonino played at a 40 point pace in 17, no?

37 in 80. Little short. In addition to what pixies said about Geno's injury, he also had a freakishly high PP tally for a second unit guy here, the like of which we won't see again in a hurry - and neither will Bonino.

Here's the maths on being a 40-45 point C using times available here -

In 16-17, Bonino got 12:30 a night at ES, 1:50 a night on the PP and 2:20 on the PK. That's about as high a usage as a 3C is going to see here. Assuming an 82 game season -

To get 30 ES points requires 1.8 p/60. That was the 172nd forward in 18-19 (that's the season I've got open, too lazy to change it), so effectively a low end 2nd liner. To get to 35 would take a 2.05, which is 122nd and beginning to be a high end 2nd liner.

PK, nobody had more than 6 short-handed points that season; Blueger has 5 in the last 200 PK minutes he's played here in his career. Power play, Bonino has got above 5 points in a season twice in his career. Assuming 3C isn't on PP1 - very rare here - 5 feels think about the reasonable mark of ambition. He did get 11 here once, but that was incredible. If a 3C here is very productive on both special teams, they might get 10 points.

So if a guy is getting full 3C time, and is very good at at least one special team (and average at least at the other) and is playing to a second liner level of efficiency, they'll be around 40-45 points.

It is only possible as a long term sustainable thing with a guy who's noticeably overqualified. It's asking a guy to be 2C good but in 3C time.

I'm all for being as strong as possible but this isn't a must have. Bonino couldn't do it consistently and we won two cups with him.


edit: p.s. Cullen had a higher p/60 than Bonino in the B2B regular seasons; if Blueger can be Cullen then as long as his legs last that extra few minutes a night Cullen's no longer could, he can be Bonino too.
 

mpp9

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Yeah after the carousel at 3C since Staal left, I'm just gonna go with the homegrown option who likely puts up 30+ pts in a full season without ZAR attached to him.

Focus cap and assets elsewhere.
 
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Honour Over Glory

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Honestly, if VGK is going to go with Lehner now and the future, I'd take Fleury back if they ate 1m of his salary and took JJ and Bjugstad in addition to Simon and a pick.

Then you have Jarry-MAF, MAF retires with the proper team and plays mentor before he calls it a career, Murray can go f*** off somewhere and then in a cafe in that town, someone will walk by him and say "They replaced you with Fleury."
 
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Big Friggin Dummy

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We won a cup in 2017 with Bonino as our 5th most played forward and not playing with Kessel.
We also won a Cup without Letang. That doesn't mean we should go with a Letang-less blueline.

If you can replicate the scoring depth we had in 2017 with Blueger as the 3C, by all means, do so. But I don't think Blueger is anything approaching the caliber of 3C this current team needs in order to claw its way back to relevance.
 

BillyOcean

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If Blueger can improve on faceoffs (and even if he can't) I'd have no problems trying him out at 3C if the Penguins can acquire a winger who can put the biscuit in the basket.
 
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BillyOcean

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Honestly, if VGK is going to go with Lehner now and the future, I'd take Fleury back if they ate 1m of his salary and took JJ and Bjugstad in addition to Simon and a pick.

Then you have Jarry-MAF, MAF retires with the proper team and plays mentor before he calls it a career, Murray can go f*** off somewhere and then in a cafe in that town, someone will walk by him and say "They replaced you with Fleury."

CoF
 
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