Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Is one moon enough

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I'm not saying Sid's decline into his late 30s will be beneficial. I'm not saying Geno and Letang possibly retiring in a couple years will be beneficial. I'm saying we don't have to become a 20-win team by making moves in a frantic scramble to win one more Cup in the next couple years.

I'm fine with moving picks and prospects if the guy(s) coming back are long-term options. I don't want anything close to resembling rental players. You want to go out and grab a long-term option for 2nd line LW or 2nd pairing (future 1st pairing) LD? Go for it, spend big, swing for the fences.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I still don't, and never will agree with the "there is no future" stuff. It's bull, imo.

Plenty of teams without superstar, generational talents out there doing well. Not cruising along at the top or anything, but doing fine.

It emanates from when the team was near bankruptcy and there wasn't a cap/floor system in the NHL. Parity is greater than ever and superstars aren't required.

If we end up sucking for a couple years and grab a Superstar (by no means a guarantee...what if we just get a Jordan Staal?), I won't exactly be upset but I'm not throwing in the towel on '23-'27 either. If Sully manages to survive here until then he is the ideal guy to coach up a Crosby/Malkin/Letang-less team too.

Edit: look at any of the top 5 picks from 2006. All were various degrees of good-to-great throughout their careers. None were worth tanking for.

 

[Louis Hensler]

Bruins, Kings, Blues, Ducks, Canes

The Penguins and Caps are the only teams in the past ~20 years to win the Cup while having generational talents. The Hawks have Kane, I guess, but I wouldn't put him on a level close to Sid, Geno or Ovechkin over their careers.

You went back 14 years and (incorrectly) identified 6 where a team won without a generational talent. That means that, even by your own standards, a generational talent was used to win most of the last 14 Cups. (Chicago and Pittsburgh won six of those -- Pittsburgh has won a lot of cups, but none without a generational talent.)

And some of the teams you identified also had generational talents -- the Ducks had three Hall of Famers (Selanne (10th overall pick), Niedermeyer (3rd overall), and Pronger (2nd overall)).

True, my use of "generational talent" may have overstated by point, which was to get really good, you have to get really bad first. Probably the best example for your perspective is the Blues, but even they had Schenn (5th overall pick) and Pietrangelo (4th overall). The 2007-2009 years that let the Blues pick those guys were really bad. LA (Kopitar, Doughty, Carter), Boston (Bergeron, Horton, Charra, Seguin) and Canes (Staal, Stillman, and Brindamour) also were loaded.

 

[Louis Hensler]

It emanates from when the team was near bankruptcy and there wasn't a cap/floor system in the NHL. Parity is greater than ever and superstars aren't required.

If we end up sucking for a couple years and grab a Superstar (by no means a guarantee...what if we just get a Jordan Staal?), I won't exactly be upset but I'm not throwing in the towel on '23-'27 either. If Sully manages to survive here until then he is the ideal guy to coach up a Crosby/Malkin/Letang-less team too.

Edit: look at any of the top 5 picks from 2006. All were various degrees of good-to-great throughout their careers. None were worth tanking for.

True, you don't tank to get the picks. You tank to win now. Getting the picks is a very nice bonus because it lets you contend again more quickly.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

You went back 14 years and (incorrectly) identified 6 where a team won without a generational talent. That means that, even by your own standards, a generational talent was used to win most of the last 14 Cups. (Chicago and Pittsburgh won six of those -- Pittsburgh has won a lot of cups, but none without a generational talent.)

And some of the teams you identified also had generational talents -- the Ducks had three Hall of Famers (Selanne (10th overall pick), Niedermeyer (3rd overall), and Pronger (2nd overall)).

True, my use of "generational talent" may have overstated by point, which was to get really good, you have to get really bad first. Probably the best example for your perspective is the Blues, but even they had Schenn (5th overall pick) and Pietrangelo (4th overall). The 2007-2009 years that let the Blues pick those guys were really bad. LA (Kopitar, Doughty, Carter), Boston (Bergeron, Horton, Charra, Seguin) and Canes (Staal, Stillman, and Brindamour) also were loaded.

We've just got very differing definitions of generational talent. Horton? Carter? Stillman? Schenn? Selanne is as close to one as anyone you listed, and I'd agree he probably fits the bill, nobody else comes close.

 

[Shady Machine]

Bruins, Kings, Blues, Ducks, Canes

The Penguins and Caps are the only teams in the past ~20 years to win the Cup while having generational talents. The Hawks have Kane, I guess, but I wouldn't put him on a level close to Sid, Geno or Ovechkin over their careers.

Point is you need high end talent. How you get that talent can happen in a variety of ways. For the Pens, the goal is to maximize the current window without hampering the future too much. How best to do that depends on the timeframe of Sid/Geno's time here.

 

[Louis Hensler]

We've just got very differing definitions of generational talent. Horton? Carter? Stillman? Schenn? Selanne is as close to one as anyone you listed, and I'd agree he probably fits the bill, nobody else comes close.

Right, see where I addressed that point with the following words: "my use of 'generational talent' may have overstated my point, which was to get really good, you have to get really bad first." Notice that I didn't call any of the guys you just named generational talents. Their names came after the above-quoted sentence. Since you've agreed that the Ducks should be moved over to the won with a generational talent column, the total now is nine of the last fourteen Cups were won with the help of a generational talent. 100% of the last fourteen cups were won after a team got very bad, picked very high, and then rode those picks to contention.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I still don't, and never will agree with the "there is no future" stuff. It's bull, imo.

Plenty of teams without superstar, generational talents out there doing well. Not cruising along at the top or anything, but doing fine.

Is "doing fine" the goal though? Sounds like a state of perpetual mediocrity, a bubble playoff team.

That's exactly what I want the Pens to avoid when Sid and Geno ride off into the sunset.

Especially when Poulin could realsitically be on the big squad as early as next season.

I love Gallagher and think he'd be amazing with Sid, but I really wanna see how Poulin pans out since he's not years and years away.

Poulin looks solid, but what's the realistic timeline for him being an impact top 6 forward player at the NHL level, if ever? And if/when he does, would he check as many boxes as Gallagher - an RH 30 goal scorer with jam and character for days - is sure to fill now?

If we could get Gallagher, I'd say there's a great chance he would re-sign and be the perfect RW for the rest of Sid and Geno's career. Not to mention be a good PP option, and facilitate moving out Horny as the net-front presence when the cap crunch hits.

 

[Liberty Biberty]

Point is you need high end talent. How you get that talent can happen in a variety of ways. For the Pens, the goal is to maximize the current window without hampering the future too much. How best to do that depends on the timeframe of Sid/Geno's time here.

High end talent yes, but also unselfish high end talent. Sure we have had a few headaches with our cap, but look at all the bull**** Chicago, Toronto, and Anaheim to name a few went through because "high end" players got every last cent they could.

 

[Trade]

If we could get Gallagher, I'd say there's a great chance he would re-sign and be the perfect RW for the rest of Sid and Geno's career. Not to mention be a good PP option, and facilitate moving out Horny as the net-front presence when the cap crunch hits.

I agree he'd be phenomenal here. I have no doubts about that and you're right... nothing with Poulin is for certain. I wouldn't be upset to get Gallagher at all, it'd just be an incredibly tough pill to swallow if Gallagher somehow stinks here and leaves after a year and a half and it was at the expense of Poulin. If Poulin being a nice Quebecois prospect is reason enough that MTL would let Gallagher go for a package around him, I'd absolutely have to think about it.

If Gallagher succeeds, it'd be as easy as settling for Kessel over Kapanen.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Right, see where I addressed that point with the following words: "my use of 'generational talent' may have overstated my point, which was to get really good, you have to get really bad first." Notice that I didn't call any of the guys you just named generational talents. Their names came after the above-quoted sentence. Since you've agreed that the Ducks should be moved over to the won with a generational talent column, the total now is nine of the last fourteen Cups were won with the help of a generational talent. 100% of the last fourteen cups were won after a team got very bad, picked very high, and then rode those picks to contention.

Saying Cups require very good players, specifically guys drafted and developed in-house with top-5 picks, is something I can agree with. Saying "Winning Cups without Generational Talents is rare" is not.

Also, six teams won with what I'd consider Generational Talent going back to the Canes in 2005-06, which would be the past 14 Cups. Sid/Geno x3, Ovechkin x1, Lidstrom x1, Selanne x1.

 

[Louis Hensler]

Saying Cups require very good players, specifically guys drafted and developed in-house with top-5 picks, is something I can agree with. Saying "Winning Cups without Generational Talents is rare" is not.

Also, six teams won with what I'd consider Generational Talent going back to the Canes in 2005-06, which would be the past 14 Cups. Sid/Geno x3, Ovechkin x1, Lidstrom x1, Selanne x1.

If you're now trying to say Chicago won without generational talent, then you've wandered off into an irrational place that I can't follow. Restating the point one last time, you have to get very bad to get very good.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If you're now trying to say Chicago won without generational talent, then you've wandered off into an irrational place that I can't follow. Restating the point one last time, you have to get very bad to get very good.

Patrick Kane is not a Generational Talent. He's a very good player, but he's not going to be remembered decades from now as the class of the league during his career like Sid, Geno, or Ovechkin. If you're arguing for Toews or Keith, well, I guess there's no discussion to be had then.

 

[Gurglesons]

@Empoleon8771. I know you were ribbing Dangle but I was listening to his podcast today and the deal he proposed was Galchenyuk + Jarry for Johansson or Kerfoot. Which I think is honestly a fair deal. Not sure I do it, but a young 3C or top six LW locked up to a great deal for the rest of Crosby’s prime is pretty impressive.

 

[Empoleon8771]

@Empoleon8771. I know you were ribbing Dangle but I was listening to his podcast today and the deal he proposed was Galchenyuk + Jarry for Johansson or Kerfoot. Which I think is honestly a fair deal. Not sure I do it, but a young 3C or top six LW locked up to a great deal for the rest of Crosby’s prime is pretty impressive.

I made that proposal on the main board like a week or 2 ago Proposal: - Leafs-Penguins

The issue was that his tweet really sounded like "would you take a cap dump if it also meant getting Jarry", not "would you trade Johnsson/Kerfoot for Galchenyuk and Jarry". If he would have said the 2nd, I wouldn't have a problem.

 

[Gurglesons]

I made that proposal on the main board like a week or 2 ago Proposal: - Leafs-Penguins

The issue was that his tweet really sounded like "would you take a cap dump if it also meant getting Jarry", not "would you trade Johnsson/Kerfoot for Galchenyuk and Jarry". If he would have said the 2nd, I wouldn't have a problem.

To me, Kerfoot has a ton more value than Johnsson.

McCann - Crosby - Kahun
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Tanev - Kerfoot - Hornqvist
Simon - Bleuger - ZAR

 

[Andy99]

Not to move away from this scintillating discussion about the definition of generational talent, but this news bulletin comes from another poster....and lol on it

“I have heard a rumor from a friend in Vancouver that PIT may be swapping Galchenyuk to BUF for Sheary. The guy isn't one to make up rumors. Trying to get more information on where he heard this rumor. Being in Canada, he often hears a lot of Canadian NHL trade chatter.

Update: Doing some digging on my own, looks like Friedman was on the radio today saying Buffalo continues to show the most interest in Galchenyuk.”

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Don't want Kerfoot.

Feet are gross.

Also rather keep Jarry around for a bit to see what we really have.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Not to move away from this scintillating discussion about the definition of generational talent, but this news bulletin comes from another poster....

“I have heard a rumor from a friend in Vancouver that PIT may be swapping Galchenyuk to BUF for Sheary. The guy isn't one to make up rumors. Trying to get more information on where he heard this rumor. Being in Canada, he often hears a lot of Canadian NHL trade chatter.

Update: Doing some digging on my own, looks like Friedman was on the radio today saying Buffalo continues to show the most interest in Galchenyuk.”

I'd do this.

Sheary plays the game the way this team does.

 

[Malkinstheman]

Not to move away from this scintillating discussion about the definition of generational talent, but this news bulletin comes from another poster....and lol on it

“I have heard a rumor from a friend in Vancouver that PIT may be swapping Galchenyuk to BUF for Sheary. The guy isn't one to make up rumors. Trying to get more information on where he heard this rumor. Being in Canada, he often hears a lot of Canadian NHL trade chatter.

Update: Doing some digging on my own, looks like Friedman was on the radio today saying Buffalo continues to show the most interest in Galchenyuk.”

I dont hate it, but not ecstatic either. Sheary obviously fits the team identity better but I was never a huge fan of his.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If we're being completely honest, I'm 100% fine with bringing Sheary back because you know he fits with Crosby. With Bjugstad presumably taking the 3C spot, I'm perfectly fine with a McCann-Crosby-Sheary top line. I also think acquiring Sheary may let you justify keeping Guentzel and Malkin together.

 

[Turin]

I’m fine with Galchenyuk for Sheary I guess, if not just for the small cap savings for another move potentially. Hopefully more, though.

 

[Trade]

I'd do this.

Sheary plays the game the way this team does.

I'm dreaming of a Sheary-Sid-Simon line.

We could even give them a cool nickname like the SSS line or the snake line! the possibilties are endless.

 

[Flying Dego]

I dont hate it, but not ecstatic either. Sheary obviously fits the team identity better but I was never a huge fan of his.

 

[Louis Hensler]

Not to move away from this scintillating discussion about the definition of generational talent, but this news bulletin comes from another poster....and lol on it

“I have heard a rumor from a friend in Vancouver that PIT may be swapping Galchenyuk to BUF for Sheary. The guy isn't one to make up rumors. Trying to get more information on where he heard this rumor. Being in Canada, he often hears a lot of Canadian NHL trade chatter.

Update: Doing some digging on my own, looks like Friedman was on the radio today saying Buffalo continues to show the most interest in Galchenyuk.”

Works for me, but that makes the Kessel trade look like Kessel for Sheary. Wow. Makes it even more clear that Kessel was just dumped.