Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Does anyone actually trust JR?

[CheckingLineCenter]

Hope Dumo was just injured. If he’s back to normal I’d really want to see them go with he and Marino again as the top shutdown pair. They were so good in brutal usage.

It would soften up Letang’s minutes so he can feast on inferior competition, and simultaneously limit the 3rd pairing (JJ) to very low TOI.

 

[JRS91]

I think people are going to be very disappointed when there isn't a major shakeup.

 

[Andy99]

I suspect JR will trade Marino for a bottom pairing guy just for JJ.

Well JJ IS a good third pairing guy who’s great at the PK and shot blocking and is great in the room...we have to make every accommodation to play him as many minutes as we can with a good partner... that’s why Sullivan put him out there at the end of a one-goal game when we needed a goal to tie the game...just a really good hockey player and we’re thankful to have him

 

[Randy Butternubs]

If JJ stays it's pretty obvious you need to sacrifice Marino with him and hope Pettersson can carry a third pairing.

If/when this happens I hope it bumps up all of JJ's stats and makes him way more attractive to other teams.

 

[SEALBound]

Well JJ IS a good third pairing guy who’s great at the PK and shot blocking and is great in the room...we have to make every accommodation to play him as many minutes as we can with a good partner... that’s why Sullivan put him out there at the end of a one-goal game when we needed a goal to tie the game...just a really good hockey player and we’re thankful to have him

See, isn't life when you learn to stop worry and love the bomb?

If/when this happens I hope it bumps up all of JJ's stats and makes him way more attractive to other teams.

I suspect in Jan/Feb there will injuries or a player that blows ass that will allow us to make a swap. I still tend to think that a Rask-JJ swap couldn't be the worst thing for either team.

 

[Gurglesons]

If/when this happens I hope it bumps up all of JJ's stats and makes him way more attractive to other teams.

I don't see how he's going to be more attractive to other teams. The only thing that will make him attractive is a prospect or a pick. Or hell, if we retain.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I don't see how he's going to be more attractive to other teams. The only thing that will make him attractive is a prospect or a pick. Or hell, if we retain.

Or just buy him out and not waste assets just to get rid of him.

 

[BrookswasHere44]

Literally no chance I'm reading people have concerns about Jake right? After that injury and coming back in this silly tournament. That would just be next level worry

 

[Empoleon8771]

Realistically, the only way they're getting rid of JJ is if they healthy scratch him for POJ and maybe they'll trade him next off-season.

I'd like to hear JR's plan to acquire a RD he views as being the right guy to play with JJ, because I'm thinking he's only out of here if POJ pushes him out.

Literally no chance I'm reading people have concerns about Jake right? After that injury and coming back in this silly tournament. That would just be next level worry

No? The only core names I've seen people throw out in here are Hornqvist, Rust and Dumoulin.

 

[Peat]

We don't, which is why there seems to be two camps at the moment. Neither way is guaranteed to work.

It's a gamble against empiri to stay with current core and supporting cast and there's obviously a gamble to trade known players as Rust and Dumoulin and Hörnqvist.

Two different roads ahead and it's hard to say that any can claim 100% to be the sane one.

I don't think there's even a Status Quo camp right now.

I think there's "We Must Change But Not X" camp, a "We Must Change So Everything's On The Table" camp, and a "We Must Change And They Won't Change Enough" camp.

If we must change, I suspect I'm in the latter. This team's engine is the relationship between Crosby, Malkin and Letang with Sullivan. I don't see how trading Rust or whoever changes that.

But I don't think anyone's made a compelling argument for having to have a bigger change than colouring around the edges, other than that's how we've always done it. Is that how every team that's gone from playoff zeroes to heroes quickly done it? Surely if everything's on the table, that includes the method, right?

I feel dumb asking this since it's obvious , but what are you referring to here?

In my mind, you don't blow it up until you try a new head coach. There's a couple people around here who would say I'm just scapegoating the coach. Maybe I am, but I don't think it's a coincidence that nearly every player has struggled in the playoffs 2 years in a row all at the same time. We know these are good players. A few years older, sure, but they are good players and they are certainly good enough to beat the 24th ranked team in the sorta-playoffs. They are good enough to score more than 6 goals against the Islanders. They didn't all fall off a cliff at the same time. If they looked like they had a pulse and just lost, OK, maybe they aren't good enough anymore. But I think there is a larger, more systemic issue at play IMO.

That's not to say they can't trade anyone in the expanded core. I just don't think they should be actively shopping any of them. It's also not to say there aren't changes needed to the roster. Kapanen is a start, although I wish they would have added more and got a legit top line winger. There's a few other spots and hopefully they give young guys like Poulin and POJ shots to take those spots.

Honestly, I'm not 100% what I mean, because I'm not 100% sure what is happening that turns a good regular season roster into a post-season roster that looks like they'd rather not be there. But considering the big swing in performance there, and the extent to which they don't just look bad, they look like they don't care, I suspect a large part of it is some mental issue for the team, and that if you fix that mental aspect you fix a lot of the performance issues.

And I don't know where the mental issue is, but I'd suspect a lot of it is somewhere inside the relationship between Crosby, Malkin and Letang with Sullivan. Bluntly I'd be happier if he was gone like you're suggesting; but since he isn't, we're left seeing whether they can regain what's missing there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You remember in 2009 when the Penguins were out of playoff position? And then they fired the coach? And then they all of sudden looked like a different team, went on an amazing run, and won the Stanley Cup? That's why.

You are aware that team made dramatic changes after firing Therrien, right? You know, when they traded Whitney for Kunitz and also added Guerin at the deadline.

You remember when the same thing happened again in 2016? That's why.

You are aware that team made drastic changes after firing Johnston, right? You know, when they traded Scuderi for Daley and Hagelin for Perron, along with adding Schultz at the deadline and giving expanded roles to numerous young players.

If Hornqvist is just this aging 3rd liner who doesn't have much of an impact on the team, how does trading him shake the team up enough to change what's happened the last 2 playoffs? That makes no sense.

So you really think trading Hornqvist wouldn't have a locker room impact? The guy that was JR's first acquisition and was a big role in the 2 cups? You really think that wouldn't make a difference?

Like I said, it is downright amazing that you're on board with firing the coach but making no significant roster changes. Just scapegoating the coach, that's all you're doing. I don't know if you're in the "fire JR" crowd, but I also do find it funny that there is a crowd that simultaneously says "fire JR because he has done a bad job and will run this team into the ground" while acting like this roster isn't flawed and only needs to trim the fat.

 

[Liberty Biberty]

Hope Dumo was just injured. If he’s back to normal I’d really want to see them go with he and Marino again as the top shutdown pair. They were so good in brutal usage.

It would soften up Letang’s minutes so he can feast on inferior competition, and simultaneously limit the 3rd pairing (JJ) to very low TOI.

Hopefully it was just his ankle not being 100%, he didnt look himself against MTL, especially game 1. He basically becomes Rob Scuderi if he loses a step or 2....

Im not sure if it was by design but Letang was very tame in the playoffs. He played great defensively, but hes really our only true OFD, and I think offense from the back end was the difference in the series.

 

[Peat]

So you really think trading Hornqvist wouldn't have a locker room impact? The guy that was JR's first acquisition and was a big role in the 2 cups? You really think that wouldn't make a difference?

So far trading guys to have a locker room impact has made playoff results worse.

 

[Empoleon8771]

So far trading guys to have a locker room impact has made playoff results worse.

The Neal trade begs to differ.

 

[Peat]

The Neal trade begs to differ.

Okay. So far in the Sullivan regime, trading guys for a locker room impact has only made playoff results worse.

 

[Ugene Magic]

New thread is up....

 

[Empoleon8771]

Okay. So far in the Sullivan regime, trading guys for a locker room impact has only made playoff results worse.

The only "wake up the locker room" trade JR has made with the Penguins with Sullivan as coach was shipping out Hagelin. I think that's more "inconclusive" than "trading locker room guys makes playoff results worse".

 

[Andy99]

You are aware that team made dramatic changes after firing Therrien, right? You know, when they traded Whitney for Kunitz and also added Guerin at the deadline.



You are aware that team made drastic changes after firing Johnston, right? You know, when they traded Scuderi for Daley and Hagelin for Perron, along with adding Schultz at the deadline and giving expanded roles to numerous young players.



So you really think trading Hornqvist wouldn't have a locker room impact? The guy that was JR's first acquisition and was a big role in the 2 cups? You really think that wouldn't make a difference?

Like I said, it is downright amazing that you're on board with firing the coach but making no significant roster changes. Just scapegoating the coach, that's all you're doing. I don't know if you're in the "fire JR" crowd, but I also do find it funny that there is a crowd that simultaneously says "fire JR because he has done a bad job and will run this team into the ground" while acting like this roster isn't flawed and only needs to trim the fat.

the changes that were made in both those Cup years were secondary players, you know...Kunitz was the most impactful player, adding him was significant...Hags, Daley and Schultz were supporting players to increase team speed...that’s what we’re going to see again...bring in Kapanen as your Kunitz, and then bring in a center and another D man as the season goes on...definitely going to have to fire the coach again, which is probably the most important change if they want to go anywhere...it’s a pattern here that has worked, and there’s only a couple more years to do it...if you don’t want to waste Sid and G anymore, fire Sullivan

 

[Empoleon8771]

Idk, I'm just quickly getting to the point where I just want to say "the idea that we have to keep Hornqvist is dumb", because the more arguments I see against trading Hornqvist, the more I realize the arguments are completely emotional and living in the past.

This team has lost 8 of their last 9 playoff games. They can't score. They've looked disinterested. A ton of their core players aren't getting the job done, and quite a few of them are aging and getting close to the point of falling off. I genuinely can't understand how people can say "all is well, get rid of the bad players and maybe fire the coach and we're good". It is incomprehensible to me to act like this team doesn't need any significant changes and should keep all of their players, some of which for completely emotional or nostalgic reasons. It just doesn't make sense, and the more I argue with people on it, the less sense it makes.

 

[Empoleon8771]

the changes that were made in both those Cup years were secondary players, you know...Kunitz was the most impactful player, adding him was significant...Hags, Daley and Schultz were supporting players to increase team speed...that’s what we’re going to see again...bring in Kapanen as your Kunitz, and then bring in a center and another D man as the season goes on...definitely going to have to fire the coach again, which is probably the most important change if they want to go anywhere...it’s a pattern here that has worked, and there’s only a couple more years to do it...if you don’t want to waste Sid and G anymore, fire Sullivan

Trading Hornqvist to me seems completely on par with trading Scuderi and Perron to me

 

[pistolpete11]

Problem is, the assets we have to get a guy like Nylander are very limited. You could have MAYBE offered Dumo for him but more likely, it would be Letang. Then we would be down a top pairing dman and have to chase down the solution to that hole.

I really don't think it's a skill thing. I truly believe that, especially now adding Kapanen, we have the skill sets to complete for a cup. I look at any team still in and I think we could still skate with them...IF. THEY. WANTED. TO. And thats the thing...last year and this year there was a tremendous amount of 'don't give a shit'. You didn't see that hunger. Look at Vancouver and the Avs...those kids are HUNGRY. And it shows. It would be one thing if it was a team of Matt Cookes, Tylers Kennedys, and Brandon Sutters trying to make a go of it and their skills just are enough to compete but that's not us. This has been a "flip the switch team" for as long as I can remember. Sullivan in 2016 got them to flip it and it stayed on. Now...it's off again.

It's not a skill thing. It's an effort thing.

Very valid and I can't say I disagree. I 1000% believe they have enough skill to at least compete.

However, I also agree with the crowd that says Crosby and Malkin are at the stages in their careers where they can't carry the Sheary's and late career Kunitz's to the Cup anymore and that is only going to get worse. So getting them as much help as possible should be the goal. Kapanen helps a little, but a guy like Nylander would have been worth the premium. I'm not saying they are doomed because they didn't get a Nylander. (They are doomed because Sullivan is still in charge ). This group of forwards is probably the most talented they've had in the Crosby-Malkin era. I just think the target should have been higher. But since JR shot his load in the second round of the playoffs, it makes me think he got his guy.

I think they could have put together a pretty good package with 15OV, Murray, McCann, Hornqivst, Dumo, Pettersson, any of the prospects, etc. As much as I don't want to trade Hornqvist or Dumo, I'd do it for a guy like that. Value wise, they could have done it, but of course it is easier said than done to find a team that has a Nylander, is willing to trade him, and willing to accept that type of package.

You're right that they need to flip the switch and I have little faith Sullivan is still the guy to do that, so none of this likely matters.

 

[pistolpete11]

I never said I'm not in favor of making changes. I'm just not in favor of the changes you want me to be.

You are aware that team made dramatic changes after firing Therrien, right? You know, when they traded Whitney for Kunitz and also added Guerin at the deadline.

Whitney sucked. He put up a lot of points on the PP but they already had prime Crosby, prime Malkin, and Gonchar. They didn't need him. Other than the PP, I never liked him as a player.

Guerin was added for a late round pick. That's not a shakeup.

You are aware that team made drastic changes after firing Johnston, right? You know, when they traded Scuderi for Daley and Hagelin for Perron, along with adding Schultz at the deadline and giving expanded roles to numerous young players.

I am all in favor of trading this team's Scuderi (JMFJ). Please sign me up for that. Please.

Perron was floundering here. He was on like a 30 point pace as a purely offensively player. Hornqvist just finished a season on a 50-point pace on the 3rd line and he's a significantly better defensive player than Perron. If this team had a Perron, I'd be fine moving him. Maybe McCann is the equivalent? Although I think McCann is better than Perron was in Pittsburgh.

Schultz was added for a pick. Again, not a shakeup.

So you really think trading Hornqvist wouldn't have a locker room impact? The guy that was JR's first acquisition and was a big role in the 2 cups? You really think that wouldn't make a difference?

Not a good one, no.

Like I said, it is downright amazing that you're on board with firing the coach but making no significant roster changes. Just scapegoating the coach, that's all you're doing. I don't know if you're in the "fire JR" crowd, but I also do find it funny that there is a crowd that simultaneously says "fire JR because he has done a bad job and will run this team into the ground" while acting like this roster isn't flawed and only needs to trim the fat.

I think the coach has a pretty big effect on how the team is playing, don't you? None of what you just said changes my mind that the coaching change is what made the biggest impact on those teams.

And for the record, I'm indifferent on JR. On one hand, they are still suffering from his worst decision as Penguins GM and I think he has been too careless with futures. On the other hand, the teams he built are way better than scoring 6 goals in a playoff series or losing to the 24th ranked team in the sorta-playoffs. The roster is not perfect, but it's way better than what the coach is getting out of them.

Trading Hornqvist to me seems completely on par with trading Scuderi and Perron to me

You've got to be f***ing kidding me. If this is where we are, I'm going to just have to leave it here.

 

[JTG]

JR is not interested in futures, so if he has to trade a goalie, I'm real curious to see what direction he goes in.

 

[The Old Master]

JR is not interested in futures,

compleat short sightedness. you take the best offer and then you can flip it(sometimes much easier the moving the player, because you have more teams you can trade with)