Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread - Does anyone actually trust JR?

[Will Hunting]

Rust is on an upwards trajectory, even in his playoff performance this year vs previous two years. But especially his overall game. I will repeat this for the millionth time, but really what happened in Caps series with him has very little relevance to what to think about him now. That's just a basic simple and fair logic, imo. Rust is a very valuable piece for us, if you want to punish him by trade, you had the case last summer. Now it makes little sense, but I agree that he shouldn't be untouchable and if there is a chance to get lets say Nurse for him, then you think about it. But just flipping Rust for the sake of flipping, lets say for another Kapanen or Labanc or Palat etc, then I really don't see how that makes us better for next 2-3 years. Those are the years THAT MATTER the most. Rust's cheap contract and level of play and style of play and proven chemistry with Geno are right there for our window. You make obvious changes firstly, then see what you have and maybe elaborate but right now Rust shouldn't really be topic number 1.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

1. Fans overact
2. Sometime good player play bad in small samples, sometimes good teams lose in small samples.
3. If our PP scores one single goal in game 1. We are likely up two games to zero with a 3-1 lead in game three. There is some obvious butterfly effect but we dominated the first two games and had a significant lead in game 3.

Sometimes shit happens.

yeah they laid down and died like dogs in game 4. There is legit criticism there. But trying to conflate what happened in the Isles series and the Montreal series is silly.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think I'm going to change my tune of "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist to shake up the team" to "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist because they've been generally shitty in the playoffs since the 2017 cup win", because them being shitty in the playoffs is more empirically based than the concept of "shaking the team up".

1. Fans overact
2. Sometime good player play bad in small samples, sometimes good teams lose in small samples.
3. If our PP scores one single goal in game 1. We are likely up two games to zero with a 3-1 lead in game three. There is some obvious butterfly effect but we dominated the first two games and had a significant lead in game 3.

Sometimes shit happens.

yeah they laid down and died like dogs in game 4. There is legit criticism there. But trying to conflate what happened in the Isles series and the Montreal series is silly.

That doesn't change that they would have just gotten smacked by the Flyers instead of losing to the Habs.

 

[pistolpete11]

I am completely all about trading basically anyone right now if there is a deal that comes along that makes sense. But then again I've never thought terribly much of this supporting cast, really. Some great names... fit together about as well as 3 partial sets of different sized puzzle pieces all jumbled together.

Having said that you are absolutely on the money that it's all irrelevant anyway so long as Sullivan is still sorta just... doing his best Disco Dan impression out there. His decisions have become poor enough at this point that it is absolutely effecting the product and you can't have that kind of self-sabotage going on in a playoff series when teams play super tight.

I don't see it as scapegoating at all. You've just been paying attention. We saw this exact same thing not that many years ago.

I agree there are some questions how everything fits together. I think a lot of the pieces are there, but we don't really know until they are put together. That's why I wanted to go bigger than Kapanen. Get a surefire top line winger. Just to use an example, Nylander. You get Nylander and run:

Zucker - Crosby - Nylander
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust

You have to pay a big premium to get a guy like that, but that's a sick top 6 and then you can start to build L3. Again, I think there are potential pieces already there. Hornqvist, McCann (preferably at wing), Poulin, maybe Blueger. But you have a direction on what needs to be done. With Kapanen, it's like, well, we hope he works in the top 6, but he might not, so we might have to put him on L3 and move Hornqvist up and then...then you're just juggling things around hoping something sticks.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I agree there are some questions how everything fits together. I think a lot of the pieces are there, but we don't really know until they are put together. That's why I wanted to go bigger than Kapanen. Get a surefire top line winger. Just to use an example, Nylander. You get Nylander and run:

Zucker - Crosby - Nylander
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust

You have to pay a big premium to get a guy like that, but that's a sick top 6 and then you can start to build L3. Again, I think there are potential pieces already there. Hornqvist, McCann (preferably at wing), Poulin, maybe Blueger. But you have a direction on what needs to be done. With Kapanen, it's like, well, we hope he works in the top 6, but he might not, so we might have to put him on L3 and move Hornqvist up and then...then you're just juggling things around hoping something sticks.

Ha... I pretty much couldn't be more on the same page.

Nylander was kind of the guy I was hoping JR had his blinders set for.

For what he gave up for Kap he was probably like... 3/4 of the way there...

 

[Will Hunting]

I think I'm going to change my tune of "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist to shake up the team" to "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist because they've been generally shitty in the playoffs since the 2017 cup win", because them being shitty in the playoffs is more empirically based than the concept of "shaking the team up".



That doesn't change that they would have just gotten smacked by the Flyers instead of losing to the Habs.

Rust wasn't shitty this year tho. He was average, while some others were shitty. He was shitty before twice, but that was his old version which has very little relevance now. Now Hornqvist, I couldn't agree more. I don't see how the guy is worth his contract for us going forward. I really don't see it. He is trending down visibly. He would be my priority after Murray if it's even possible. You shake up the room, get younger, clear cap space, get faster. That makes all the sense in the world to me.

 

[EightyOne]

I'm more disappointed in Dumo than Rust

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I think I'm going to change my tune of "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist to shake up the team" to "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist because they've been generally shitty in the playoffs since the 2017 cup win", because them being shitty in the playoffs is more empirically based than the concept of "shaking the team up".



That doesn't change that they would have just gotten smacked by the Flyers instead of losing to the Habs.

maybe, maybe not.

thats a pretty big assumption.

theres not a single team they cant beat when theyre playing well. And if thats the case then while not perfectly constructed by any means, definitely means you should be looking to for some support not changing things to satiate your frustration.

 

[Empoleon8771]

maybe, maybe not.

thats a pretty big assumption.

theres not a single team they cant beat when theyre playing well. And if thats the case then while not perfectly constructed by any means, definitely means you should be looking to for some support not changing things to satiate your frustration.

You can say this about pretty much any playoff team.

I'm more disappointed in Dumo than Rust

Dumoulin's up there with me too, but I chalk up his struggles to being due to that nasty ankle injury this year. I wouldn't be mad if they decided to move him, although I question how easily you could replace him.

 

[Will Hunting]

I'm more disappointed in Dumo than Rust

He plays the more important position tho. But yeah...

 

[pistolpete11]

Trading Rust or Hornqvist isn't "blowing it up". Sullivan is a dramatically better coach than Rust or Hornqvist are players, you don't fire a coach over trying to trade a solid supporting piece first.

I'd agree with you if we were talking Letang or Guentzel, but Rust and Hornqvist aren't Letang and Guentzel.

Look, man, we don't agree. You can keep trying to convince me they should trade Rust and Hornqvist, but I don't agree. I don't think the roster needs a shakeup. I think they've tried that. I think they need new direction and until then, shaking up the roster is just making moves to make moves.

Sullivan is a good coach. I have no doubt he'll have success again in the NHL, but I think he's run his course here. We've seen these types of listless performances before with Therrien and then Johnston. Disco had his own issues, but at least they had a pulse when he was the coach. Judging by how dead they've looked the last 2 playoffs, I think they've tuned Sullivan out. It's not even necessarily his fault. It's just the reality of the situation.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Look, man, we don't agree. You can keep trying to convince me they should trade Rust and Hornqvist, but I don't agree. I don't think the roster needs a shakeup. I think they've tried that. I think they need new direction and until then, shaking up the roster is just making moves to make moves.

Sullivan is a good coach. I have no doubt he'll have success again in the NHL, but I think he's run his course here. We've seen these types of listless performances before with Therrien and then Johnston. Disco had his own issues, but at least they had a pulse when he was the coach. Judging by how dead they've looked the last 2 playoffs, I think they've tuned Sullivan out. It's not even necessarily his fault. It's just the reality of the situation.

I just have fundamentally no idea how you can say "the coach needs to be fired" while simultaneously saying "the roster doesn't need a shakeup". That doesn't make a lick of sense.

You're willing to go to the most drastic option regarding coaching, but you're not even willing to trade an aging 3rd liner on this team that's teetering closer and closer to the point of falling off. It makes no sense.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The only way to deal with trading Dumo is if Letang or Marino can comfortably shift to LD and excel in that position, so you pair them together.

Doesn't really help with the depth issue on the blueline though, but I'm pretty worried about whether or not Dumo's injury is a long-term one, that he never really gets over a la Whitney and his heel.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Guys, guys... this is easy to compromise on:

The players are a bad mix AND the coach has lost the plot.

Which, I mean... is exactly why I don't see them doing anything much different as far as positive results are concerned for at least another season. I mean... aside from the attendant deck chairs on the giant doomed cruise liner, etc.

 

[Andy99]

I'm more disappointed in Dumo than Rust

Dumo and Jake are very concerning to me...I hope we’re not seeing the next post-injury Schultz and Tarasenko, given their respective performances this PO...let’s hope it was just rust from the long layoff and lack of playing time...

 

[pistolpete11]

I just have fundamentally no idea how you can say "the coach needs to be fired" while simultaneously saying "the roster doesn't need a shakeup". That doesn't make a lick of sense.

You remember in 2009 when the Penguins were out of playoff position? And then they fired the coach? And then they all of sudden looked like a different team, went on an amazing run, and won the Stanley Cup? That's why.

You remember when the same thing happened again in 2016? That's why.

You're willing to go to the most drastic option regarding coaching, but you're not even willing to trade an aging 3rd liner on this team that's teetering closer and closer to the point of falling off. It makes no sense.

If Hornqvist is just this aging 3rd liner who doesn't have much of an impact on the team, how does trading him shake the team up enough to change what's happened the last 2 playoffs? That makes no sense.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

On a completely different note:

I fully expect Dustin Tokarski will be signing a two-way deal with the Penguins.

 

[Deport Ogie]

Holy crap and Chiodo, I forgot Dustin Tokarski was even a thing.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

You can say this about pretty much any playoff team.



Dumoulin's up there with me too, but I chalk up his struggles to being due to that nasty ankle injury this year. I wouldn't be mad if they decided to move him, although I question how easily you could replace him.

can you though?

 

[pistolpete11]

Guys, guys... this is easy to compromise on:

The players are a bad mix AND the coach has lost the plot.

Which, I mean... is exactly why I don't see them doing anything much different as far as positive results are concerned for at least another season. I mean... aside from the attendant deck chairs on the giant doomed cruise liner, etc.

It's a bad mix or at least a questionable mix, but I don't think swapping Rust or Hornqvist out for other middle 6 wingers helps solve that.

Now, if we are talking packaging Murray and Rust/Hornqvist for a Nylander type, I'm listening....

 

[Al Smith]

Dumo and Jake are very concerning to me...I hope we’re not seeing the next post-injury Schultz and Tarasenko, given their respective performances this PO...let’s hope it was just rust from the long layoff and lack of playing time...

Pretty hard to tell from a four game sample after a long layoff, but for Guentzel, I'd lean toward rust for about 20-30 games. After that, I'd start to have longer-term concerns. I don't think Dumo's issues were injuries; he just looked like someone who was in September playing shape. I guess an injury could be contributing to that, but again, I think we'd need to see many more games before worrying too much.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

Given GMJR's comments about finding the right person to play with JJ, I wonder if they see Ruhwedel or Riikola (he's adept at RD [and wing...]) as that person.

 

[SEALBound]

I think I'm going to change my tune of "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist to shake up the team" to "they should trade Rust and/or Hornqvist because they've been generally shitty in the playoffs since the 2017 cup win", because them being shitty in the playoffs is more empirically based than the concept of "shaking the team up".

That doesn't change that they would have just gotten smacked by the Flyers instead of losing to the Habs.

That's why I'm not super pissed (as pissed as JR) about the loss. That said though, the Canadians didn't exactly make it easy on the Flyers. They put up a good fight. It made me feel a tad bit better about the loss. Now if Montreal loses 4-0 and gets blown out 6-0 every game, then we have big concerns.

I agree there are some questions how everything fits together. I think a lot of the pieces are there, but we don't really know until they are put together. That's why I wanted to go bigger than Kapanen. Get a surefire top line winger. Just to use an example, Nylander. You get Nylander and run:

Zucker - Crosby - Nylander
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust

You have to pay a big premium to get a guy like that, but that's a sick top 6 and then you can start to build L3. Again, I think there are potential pieces already there. Hornqvist, McCann (preferably at wing), Poulin, maybe Blueger. But you have a direction on what needs to be done. With Kapanen, it's like, well, we hope he works in the top 6, but he might not, so we might have to put him on L3 and move Hornqvist up and then...then you're just juggling things around hoping something sticks.

Problem is, the assets we have to get a guy like Nylander are very limited. You could have MAYBE offered Dumo for him but more likely, it would be Letang. Then we would be down a top pairing dman and have to chase down the solution to that hole.

I really don't think it's a skill thing. I truly believe that, especially now adding Kapanen, we have the skill sets to complete for a cup. I look at any team still in and I think we could still skate with them...IF. THEY. WANTED. TO. And thats the thing...last year and this year there was a tremendous amount of 'don't give a shit'. You didn't see that hunger. Look at Vancouver and the Avs...those kids are HUNGRY. And it shows. It would be one thing if it was a team of Matt Cookes, Tylers Kennedys, and Brandon Sutters trying to make a go of it and their skills just are enough to compete but that's not us. This has been a "flip the switch team" for as long as I can remember. Sullivan in 2016 got them to flip it and it stayed on. Now...it's off again.

It's not a skill thing. It's an effort thing.

Guys, guys... this is easy to compromise on:

The players are a bad mix AND the coach has lost the plot.

Which, I mean... is exactly why I don't see them doing anything much different as far as positive results are concerned for at least another season. I mean... aside from the attendant deck chairs on the giant doomed cruise liner, etc.

I wouldn't say bad mix. I don't think that's fair. St. Louis fans could easily have said "it's a bad mix" in Jan 2019. I do think you have a bunch of guys that have had a lot of success together that no longer feel that burning passion to dominate not only for themselves and the team, but rather the guy sitting or skating right next to you. The youthful infusion worked both ways in 2016.

On a completely different note:

I fully expect Dustin Tokarski will be signing a two-way deal with the Penguins.

Oh good, trade both Murray and Jarry for picks and prospects that won't help. We have our new toy.

In all seriousness though, 1.97GAA, 0.924%SV in 18GP is pretty good. Encouraging even. He seems to have bounced around a lot though...

can you though?

Depends on what your expectations are. If you trade Dumo and expect Dumo back, you'll be disappointed. There's only one Dumo. Who you get back will be different...better or worse is up for debate. But I mean, if you can send Dumo out for Boeser and Rust for Klefbom/Nurse...do you do it? Again...think overall fit as part of a team identity not necessarily ability in a vacuum.

 

[Gurglesons]

Given GMJR's comments about finding the right person to play with JJ, I wonder if they see Ruhwedel or Riikola (he's adept at RD [and wing...]) as that person.

If JJ stays it's pretty obvious you need to sacrifice Marino with him and hope Pettersson can carry a third pairing.

 

[SEALBound]

If JJ stays it's pretty obvious you need to sacrifice Marino with him and hope Pettersson can carry a third pairing.

I suspect JR will trade Marino for a bottom pairing guy just for JJ.