Salary Cap: Pittsburgh Penguins Salary Cap Thread: Cole's House of Pain

[Tom Hanks]

Yeah, played up until I was 18. I handle the puck like Ceci and skate like Gumby.

I'd love a short term contract for someone to dress as Gumby for a game

 

[EightyOne]

At least gumby wouldn't get hurt

 

[Tom Hanks]

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, but is Vatanen REALLY 750K better than Ceci?

EDIT: Joke aside, IF the Pens could've grabbed Vatanen for 2M, imagine what THAT defense would've looked like. I'd have gone Dumo-Tang, Matheson-Marino, and Pets-Vatanen. Nothing like having a GM who keeps prematurely shooting . . . er, never mind.

Seeing the top 4 and how this coaching staff loves the idea of Matheson-Ceci (Pettersson-Marino makes me want to throw up, f*** I hate Pettersson so much), I dunno mate.

I mean I would have easily rather seen Riikola-Vatanen as a pairing and then the small cap hit left, allocated to a better bottom 6 winger to help out.

But really, who needs competent players?

Coulda had...

Dumoulin, Letang
Matheson/Vatanen, Marino
Riikola, Vatanen

 

[Empoleon8771]

I posted a proposal on the main board that I'm curious to see if people here would do. Would you do Poulin to Nashville for Jarnkrok? Jarnkrok has a downright steal of a contract at 2 years at $2 million, and is a righty C/RW that put up a 40 point pace last year.

It's definitely a deal I feel the Penguins will regret in 3 years, but it definitely helps their win-now window to get such a good value player in Jarnkrok. Based on the Comeau, Kapanen and Goodrow trades from the last year, I don't think it's an overpayment either.

 

[EightyOne]

I posted a proposal on the main board that I'm curious to see if people here would do. Would you do Poulin to Nashville for Jarnkrok? Jarnkrok has a downright steal of a contract at 2 years at $2 million, and is a righty C/RW that put up a 40 point pace last year.

It's definitely a deal I feel the Penguins will regret in 3 years, but it definitely helps their win-now window to get such a good value player in Jarnkrok. Based on the Comeau, Kapanen and Goodrow trades from the last year, I don't think it's an overpayment either.

That's almost crazy... But it worked with Kessel

And look, now we got Kap back! We can get Poulin back later!

It is more likely that Poulin doesn't help next couple years anyway... Hmmmm

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's almost crazy... But it worked with Kessel

And look, now we got Kap back! We can get Poulin back later!

Yeah it's certainly not cheap and it's certainly a deal I feel the Penguins will regret down the line, but Jarnkrok's such a good value player that I think it's worth it. Jarnkrok is making $2 million a year for this year and next year while being a defensively strong 30-40 point guy that plays both C and RW.

It depends partially on how you view the Penguins after Crosby and Malkin. I'm not talking play styles, but Jarnkrok basically appears to be a righty version of McCann. Is that on a great contract worth Poulin? Based on other trades, it seems like it's "fair" value, but is it worth doing?

 

[K Fleur]

Crosby’s new RW.

 

[Peat]

I posted a proposal on the main board that I'm curious to see if people here would do. Would you do Poulin to Nashville for Jarnkrok? Jarnkrok has a downright steal of a contract at 2 years at $2 million, and is a righty C/RW that put up a 40 point pace last year.

It's definitely a deal I feel the Penguins will regret in 3 years, but it definitely helps their win-now window to get such a good value player in Jarnkrok. Based on the Comeau, Kapanen and Goodrow trades from the last year, I don't think it's an overpayment either.

Not today for three reasons.

1) I remain high on Poulin and how abrupt his upward trajectory has been to this point and where we could be soon if it continues
2) I want to retain the assets that have a chance on getting us in on potential gamechanging pieces rather than keep frittering them away on useful pieces that only add so much
3) We straight up can't if the internal cap is real.

Maybe, if during the season, we're going strong but feel like we need one more guy on the third line, and Poulin's trajectory has flattened out, then maybe I feel different. But I'd wait until that moment. Give the guys we brought in a chance to see who can bring it in our system. Hell, give the team a chance to show that continuing to sacrifice future for the now is the right move. Giving up assets to give ourselves a good chance is one thing, but I think there's enough doubts over what team we were from last season that we should be pretty wary about sacrificing our best futures for hopefully elite third liners. Imagine how we'd feel if we did this deal, and it turns our top six wasn't up to pulling anything and we were done?

So no. No for lots of reasons.

Doesn't help that I can't remember shit about Jarnkrok and what he does other than occasionally score points.

 

[Peat]

That's almost crazy... But it worked with Kessel

And look, now we got Kap back! We can get Poulin back later!

It is more likely that Poulin doesn't help next couple years anyway... Hmmmm

Kessel was an elite forward and giant difference maker. Janrkrok is more Bonino or Hagelin speed. Or Pearson or somewhere between Brassard and Sheahan.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Not today for three reasons.

1) I remain high on Poulin and how abrupt his upward trajectory has been to this point and where we could be soon if it continues
2) I want to retain the assets that have a chance on getting us in on potential gamechanging pieces rather than keep frittering them away on useful pieces that only add so much
3) We straight up can't if the internal cap is real.

Maybe, if during the season, we're going strong but feel like we need one more guy on the third line, and Poulin's trajectory has flattened out, then maybe I feel different. But I'd wait until that moment. Give the guys we brought in a chance to see who can bring it in our system. Hell, give the team a chance to show that continuing to sacrifice future for the now is the right move. Giving up assets to give ourselves a good chance is one thing, but I think there's enough doubts over what team we were from last season that we should be pretty wary about sacrificing our best futures for hopefully elite third liners. Imagine how we'd feel if we did this deal, and it turns our top six wasn't up to pulling anything and we were done?

So no. No for lots of reasons.

Doesn't help that I can't remember shit about Jarnkrok and what he does other than occasionally score points.

It's not a comparison of play style, but Jarnkrok is basically a righty McCann. Can play in either a defensive or offensive role at C or RW and give you good results. I think comparing the impact of acquiring him to the impact of acquiring Bonino is fair. A highly versatile forward who's between a great 3rd liner and a fringe 2nd/3rd liner.

To me, acquiring Jarnkrok would be in the same mold as Tampa Bay acquiring Coleman. It is pricey? Yeah for sure, but getting that level of value for $2 million a year is really hard to pass up. Getting a guy who should be good for 35 points per 82 games that plays both special teams and can play in either a top-6 or bottom-6 role for $2 million seems like amazing value. It's just a lot to give up Poulin for that, because I think you probably will end up regretting the trade down the line.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Yeah it's certainly not cheap and it's certainly a deal I feel the Penguins will regret down the line, but Jarnkrok's such a good value player that I think it's worth it. Jarnkrok is making $2 million a year for this year and next year while being a defensively strong 30-40 point guy that plays both C and RW.

It depends partially on how you view the Penguins after Crosby and Malkin. I'm not talking play styles, but Jarnkrok basically appears to be a righty version of McCann. Is that on a great contract worth Poulin? Based on other trades, it seems like it's "fair" value, but is it worth doing?

He's also 29, so I don't like spending one of our top prospects for a so/so 3rd liner. He does come with requirements I'd be looking to add in experience, had some good runs in the playoffs. So what seems fair to you, a prospect like Poulin should only be used if you are trying to reach a little further. Like a couple years younger and be willing to add to Poulin for better talent.

I wouldn't spend a top prospect. Find a roster player who's expendable and not working out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

He's also 29, so I don't like spending one of our top prospects for a so/so 3rd liner. He does come with requirements I'd be looking to add in experience, had some good runs in the playoffs. So what seems fair to you, a prospect like Poulin should only be used if you are trying to reach a little further. Like a couple years younger and be willing to add to Poulin for better talent.

I wouldn't spend a top prospect. Find a roster player who's expendable and not working out.

I think this is a fair point to mention, but I don't think Poulin alone could get much better than this. I also don't think you can get someone like Jankrok fro a "roster player who's expendable and not working out", you're probably adding a pretty decent future along with that roster player to get someone like Jarnkrok.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

With that Poulin for Jarnkrok trade you've got some expansion draft considerations. If Jarnkrok doesn't fit in with the Pens and isn't protected (and is drafted) then you basically lost Poulin for nothing.

Unless the Pens win the Cup with Jarnkrok. Then whatever.

 

[Peat]

It's not a comparison of play style, but Jarnkrok is basically a righty McCann. Can play in either a defensive or offensive role at C or RW and give you good results. I think comparing the impact of acquiring him to the impact of acquiring Bonino is fair. A highly versatile forward who's between a great 3rd liner and a fringe 2nd/3rd liner.

To me, acquiring Jarnkrok would be in the same mold as Tampa Bay acquiring Coleman. It is pricey? Yeah for sure, but getting that level of value for $2 million a year is really hard to pass up. Getting a guy who should be good for 35 points per 82 games that plays both special teams and can play in either a top-6 or bottom-6 role for $2 million seems like amazing value. It's just a lot to give up Poulin for that, because I think you probably will end up regretting the trade down the line.

The play style matters here. McCann has a lot of skill but his lack of toolbox make him feel empty calorie. Coleman will put up the same points - maybe less - but his physicality makes him feel more valuable. More than that, I look at the third line and in McCann-Jankowski, I see two defensively solid guys with hands and goalscoring potential but nobody with patience and vision to unlock them. We get in a third liner, it should be someone with patience and vision to compliment them... unless Rodrigues takes off and one of them fails. Or something else. That's one of the things I don't like about this idea. There's so many ways this bottom six could play out and we don't know what exact piece will work.

Also, more importantly, the fact is Tampa were a super strong team and obvious contenders when they moved for Coleman. We have more questions. I don't think we should be making the moves they did until we've answered those questions. We look like it midway through the season, sure, start talking. Today? Not for me squire.

With that Poulin for Jarnkrok trade you've got some expansion draft considerations. If Jarnkrok doesn't fit in with the Pens and isn't protected (and is drafted) then you basically lost Poulin for nothing.

Unless the Pens win the Cup with Jarnkrok. Then whatever.

This is a good point. This isn't a good season to be spending futures for fringe forwards. Obviously if you think you see a cup looming, that's not the most important point, but if you don't...

 

[Andy99]

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Rutherford eyeing free agency to acquire impact player. Is it feasible?

spoiler alert: not feasible lol....

 

[Empoleon8771]

With that Poulin for Jarnkrok trade you've got some expansion draft considerations. If Jarnkrok doesn't fit in with the Pens and isn't protected (and is drafted) then you basically lost Poulin for nothing.

Unless the Pens win the Cup with Jarnkrok. Then whatever.

I was typing out a reply where I was going to say that I'd just leave Tanev exposed, but I forgot that the Penguins also have Kapanen now and need to protect him. So your protection list right now is probably the top-6 plus McCann at forward, so any forward acquisition would either need to push McCann out or not be protected.

The question to ask is whether Seattle would take 1 year of Jarnkrok over Blueger, Matheson (or Pettersson if Matheson is good) or Tanev. I don't think it's a given, but it's also not an ideal risk to take. But at the same time, you have to make that decision with any sort of forward acquisition before the expansion draft. If you acquire a great 3C in a great trade, you're also going to face that question.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I think this is a fair point to mention, but I don't think Poulin alone could get much better than this. I also don't think you can get someone like Jankrok fro a "roster player who's expendable and not working out", you're probably adding a pretty decent future along with that roster player to get someone like Jarnkrok.

Right. Though I'd doubt the future is that high unless that roster player is really suspect. Like Sceviour who's UFA, but we also could be talking as high as McCann where the Pens are getting back more than just Jankrok. Like him plus a 3rd/4th. Nashville has the space to swing something to that scale. And that only happens because McCann didn't fit or solidify his role anywhere on the team.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I wouldn’t move Poulin for Jarnkrok. I feel like that’s a move you do once the kid’s progress has stalled.

If I trade Poulin while his value is still very high, I’d expect someone like Danault back (maybe we add but point is made).

Jarnkrok is not necessarily a bad player but feels underwhelming for a D+2 1st rounder who’s done everything right.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The play style matters here. McCann has a lot of skill but his lack of toolbox make him feel empty calorie. Coleman will put up the same points - maybe less - but his physicality makes him feel more valuable. More than that, I look at the third line and in McCann-Jankowski, I see two defensively solid guys with hands and goalscoring potential but nobody with patience and vision to unlock them. We get in a third liner, it should be someone with patience and vision to compliment them... unless Rodrigues takes off and one of them fails. Or something else. That's one of the things I don't like about this idea. There's so many ways this bottom six could play out and we don't know what exact piece will work.

Also, more importantly, the fact is Tampa were a super strong team and obvious contenders when they moved for Coleman. We have more questions. I don't think we should be making the moves they did until we've answered those questions. We look like it midway through the season, sure, start talking. Today? Not for me squire.

The comment about "play style" wasn't me saying play style doesn't matter, it was just me saying "I'm not saying Jarnkrok and McCann play the same way". Jarnkrok is more of a jack of all trades kind of guy, he just has the same ability with the same versatility as McCann (great 3rd liner to fringe 2nd/3rd liner that can play any position in any role). I don't know of a great comparable to Jarnkrok that has played for the Penguins in recent years. I think Cullen is probably the closest I can come up with.

This is a good point. This isn't a good season to be spending futures for fringe forwards. Obviously if you think you see a cup looming, that's not the most important point, but if you don't...

Eh I really don't know about this logic. Like I said above, it really depends on what you think of the Penguins in say 3+ years, because that's really when the impact of the trade will be fully felt.

I wouldn’t move Poulin for Jarnkrok. I feel like that’s a move you do once the kid’s progress has stalled.

If I trade Poulin while his value is still very high, I’d expect someone like Danault back (maybe we add but point is made).

Jarnkrok is not necessarily a bad player but feels underwhelming for a D+2 1st rounder who’s done everything right.

I feel like you'd have to add an asset that is on par or more valuable than Poulin to get Danault.

I don't think Poulin on his own has significant value beyond where he was drafted at, because prospects in Poulin's position don't often get traded alone. If they get traded, they get moved in bigger deals, like POJ and Galchenyuk for Kessel.

 

[Peat]

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Rutherford eyeing free agency to acquire impact player. Is it feasible?

spoiler alert: not feasible lol....

I don't think he's particularly thought it through. Wilson that is. The cap space is there if Rutherford wants to be drastic. Letang's the obvious name, but if you lose Zucker and Pettersson for no money back, you have 8.5m spare (assuming POJ or Pettersson to replace Pettersson) and that right there is impact shopping today. I admittedly haven't particularly thought about the effects of fitting in Marino's contract, or possible rises for Blueger, but I think it works.

The bigger thing is the list of potential targets but there's enough. And it doesn't necessarily have to be next summer either. Could be one after. Etc.etc.

Honestly, in a way, the biggest question is where do you fit players in? We could certainly fit a LD in. I know I said move Zucker and replaced him but, reality, unless its Taylor Hall that doesn't make much sense. They're hoping they solved the right this summer - but maybe Rutherford is thinking at the end of Rust's current contract?

I dunno. We'll see. But it's feasible.

 

[dogthateats]

I am fine with trading Poulin, but not for Jarnkrok.

 

[Andy99]

I don't think he's particularly thought it through. Wilson that is. The cap space is there if Rutherford wants to be drastic. Letang's the obvious name, but if you lose Zucker and Pettersson for no money back, you have 8.5m spare (assuming POJ or Pettersson to replace Pettersson) and that right there is impact shopping today. I admittedly haven't particularly thought about the effects of fitting in Marino's contract, or possible rises for Blueger, but I think it works.

The bigger thing is the list of potential targets but there's enough. And it doesn't necessarily have to be next summer either. Could be one after. Etc.etc.

Honestly, in a way, the biggest question is where do you fit players in? We could certainly fit a LD in. I know I said move Zucker and replaced him but, reality, unless its Taylor Hall that doesn't make much sense. They're hoping they solved the right this summer - but maybe Rutherford is thinking at the end of Rust's current contract?

I dunno. We'll see. But it's feasible.

I took the “feasible” comment to mean can he get a mid-20s impact player as a UFA, not necessarily about cap space, but who knows...I agree, they can make cap space through trades etc...by “impact “ mid 20s player I think of like Dubois or Laine or someone like that, and even a RFA they’d have to trade for, which is not free agency...so to that extent, yeah, RW is right...he’s not going to get a top echelon player in his prime in free agency....he’s going to have trade assets for one unless the Pens somehow pick in the top 5 of the draft

 

[Peat]

The comment about "play style" wasn't me saying play style doesn't matter, it was just me saying "I'm not saying Jarnkrok and McCann play the same way". Jarnkrok is more of a jack of all trades kind of guy, he just has the same ability with the same versatility as McCann (great 3rd liner to fringe 2nd/3rd liner that can play any position in any role). I don't know of a great comparable to Jarnkrok that has played for the Penguins in recent years. I think Cullen is probably the closest I can come up with.

I get that. Just making the point that the points alone doesn't sway me much, and if I could remember more of Jarnkrok's play style I might feel different. Another Cullen? Much as I like Cullen, I've got to be real certain we're in a great place before I say lets premium for younger-Cullen. What made Cullen great here was him having abilities well beyond his wage and role as much as anything. Paying full whack takes the edge of it.

Eh I really don't know about this logic. Like I said above, it really depends on what you think of the Penguins in say 3+ years, because that's really when the impact of the trade will be fully felt.

I have no idea where the team will be in three years. Too many variables. But I do know that I don't believe in playing premium prices for premium depth unless you're super sure that's all that's between you and the Cup. You want to spend on Jarnkrok, then find out we need to make a bigger trade than that in season to compete but have emptied out our pockets? Or that we're simply nto competitors at all.

You can probably do Jarnkrok - or similar - for Poulin twenty games in if you discover that we're in a place where it makes sense. But you can't undo it if you discovered it really didn't.

I feel like you'd have to add an asset that is on par or more valuable than Poulin to get Danault.

I don't think Poulin on his own has significant value beyond where he was drafted at, because prospects in Poulin's position don't often get traded alone. If they get traded, they get moved in bigger deals, like POJ and Galchenyuk for Kessel.

They don't often get traded alone because most orgs want to hold on to them unless they're getting a big win now piece back, and those obviously require more than just the prospect. Balancing them against moderate win now pieces is hard because most orgs just aren't interested. You're probably right it would require more for Danault - although maybe not as a rental - but it's real hard to say given how rare these moves are.

 

[Peat]

I took the “feasible” comment to mean can he get a mid-20s impact player as a UFA, not necessarily about cap space, but who knows...I agree, they can make cap space through trades etc...by “impact “ mid 20s player I think of like Dubois or Laine or someone like that, and even a RFA they’d have to trade for, which is not free agency...so to that extent, yeah, RW is right...he’s not going to get a top echelon player in his prime in free agency....he’s going to have trade assets for one unless the Pens somehow pick in the top 5 of the draft

Okay, it won't be mid 20s, but somewhere between 27 and 29? That is feasible. A Dubois at 24 or whatever he isn't? Nope. Hamilton or RNH, both 27 today? That's on.