Pittsburgh Penguins Prospects Thread

[Dipsy Doodle]

Multiple, full season samples in junior, college or European leagues where players are often on a team for multiple years (or their whole life) are barometers— not a two week national team tournament. Not even close to the same thing.

A tournament against the absolute best of your peers is a different kind of barometer, but just as valuable.

I haven't seen anything to suggest it's a less reliable indicator of NHL success.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

If Poulin shows well at camp and that he’s NHL ready, he will make the team. I severely doubt they would send him back to juniors if he looks the part.

Pens bent over backwards to give Marino a roster spot when he had a good camp. They carried something like 9 blue liners and benched a couple vets for him.

The standard has been set under Sullivan with guys like Guentzel, Murray and Marino that show he will go out of his way to get young guys in the lineup when they show they are ready.

So Poulin will get his chance, but it’s obviously up to him to perform.

If he’s actually ready or not, who knows.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, I guess to clarify i meant that I don’t see why people are expect it to happen.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

A tournament against the absolute best of your peers is a different kind of barometer, but just as valuable.

I haven't seen anything to suggest it's a less reliable indicator of NHL success.

nothing I can really say if you think a tournament is the same as a multiple season samples

 

[Gurglesons]

A tournament against the absolute best of your peers is a different kind of barometer, but just as valuable.

I haven't seen anything to suggest it's a less reliable indicator of NHL success.

I mean, there is a laundry list of players that had wonderful WJC tournaments and blew chunks in their NHL career and the opposite as well.

I’d also like to say this is Pronman saying it. Not hockey Canada who has had Poulin on Byfield’s wing every scrimmage.

Let’s save the preemptive dunking on our prospect until we see the actual cuts.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What fans expect out of prospects is irrelevant, though.

Whether Poulin makes the team depends solely on how he does at camp with the Penguins and what the Penguins view their needs to be. What role he falls in for TC, when TC is making independent roster decisions with an entirely different roster, is completely irrelevant. Poulin may not make TC for one reason but may make the Penguins for a completely different reason, neither of which may be his talent level. Roster building isn't just "put the 12 best forwards and 6 best D in".

Poulin may only be an extra for TC because they view him as a complementary top-6 forward, but they don't have a top-6 slot open for him and they want their bottom-6 to be filled with defensive specialists. That's not indicative of his talent level at all, it's just the roster preference of the coaching and management. And on the flip side, he may make the Penguins because they're starved for ELC talent and need to get cheap contributors. That too is not indicative of his talent level.

To make an analogy to a situation on the Penguins, you're basically making the argument of Johnson was better than Riikola because Johnson played over Riikola with Poulin on Team Canada.

The Penguins also have access to established PK contributors who get paid as little as Poulin does. This is a team that touted Jankowski and Rodrigues for exactly that reason.

Poulin is supposed to be defensively reliable enough to be a solid two-way contributor on the Pens 3rd line if he were to make the team. If he isn't determined to be capable enough in that role to make the WJC team, again, it doesn't bode well.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I mean, there is a laundry list of players that had wonderful WJC tournaments and blew chunks in their NHL career and the opposite as well.

Yes, just as any lower level.

 

[Gurglesons]

The Penguins also have access to established PK contributors who get paid as little as Poulin does. This is a team that touted Jankowski and Rodrigues for exactly that reason.

Poulin is supposed to be defensively reliable enough to be a solid two-way contributor on the Pens 3rd line if he were to make the team. If he isn't determined to be capable enough in that role to make the WJC team, again, it doesn't bode well.

Addison by most accounts from the media was the “extra D” or bottom pairing D for the 2020 WJC squad. Look at how that turned out.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Penguins also have access to established PK contributors who get paid as little as Poulin does. This is a team that touted Jankowski and Rodrigues for exactly that reason.

Poulin is supposed to be defensively reliable enough to be a solid two-way contributor on the Pens 3rd line if he were to make the team. If he isn't determined to be capable enough in that role to make the WJC team, again, it doesn't bode well.

Okay? Sullivan isn't Team Canada's coach, and what Team Canada decides for the WJC has absolutely no bearing on what Sullivan decides to do with the Penguins. What decisions Sullivan makes are completely separate from what decisions Team Canada makes.

Again, you seem to not be able to grasp that "roster building" isn't just "play the 18 best players". Coaches make decisions based on other things that are not indicative of player ability. You would have thought a Penguins fan who watched Johnson play over Riikola would have understood that, but I guess not.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Funny thing is if you caught some scrimmages and have followed I think Pronman is wrong and Poulin is exactly who the coach is gonna ask to play a 3rd wheel defensive baby sitter type of role. Tourigny is playing the crap out of the kid.

Rees has been good though.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I agree wholeheartedly with this, I guess to clarify i meant that I don’t see why people are expect it to happen.

I expect him to get a really legit shot, so it’s fair to assume he can make the roster.

Again, I haven’t watched him play since before the plague, so I have no idea if he’s ready.

JR thinks he is, but he doesn’t have a very good track record there.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Addison by most accounts from the media was the “extra D” or bottom pairing D for the 2020 WJC squad. Look at how that turned out.

Yes. And despite being a very good prospect, it probably wouldn't have been a great idea to have him join the Wild immediately afterward.

I'm not casting judgment on a prospect for all time here, simply pointing out that kids in that position don't jump into NHL action in a matter of months.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Okay? Sullivan isn't Team Canada's coach, and what Team Canada decides for the WJC has absolutely no bearing on what Sullivan decides to do with the Penguins. What decisions Sullivan makes are completely separate from what decisions Team Canada makes.

Again, you seem to not be able to grasp that "roster building" isn't just "play the 18 best players". Coaches make decisions based on other things that are not indicative of player ability. You would have thought a Penguins fan who watched Johnson play over Riikola would have understood that, but I guess not.

I grasp it perfectly.

I'm saying that if Poulin can't distinguish himself enough among juniors to earn a starting spot on a WJC roster - whatever the circumstances - it's unlikely that he'll be able to contribute in a top 9 role for a contender in a matter of months. But ya know, we'll see.

 

[Gurglesons]

Yes. And despite being a very good prospect, it probably wouldn't have been a great idea to have him join the Wild immediately afterward.

I'm not casting judgment on a prospect for all time here, simply pointing out that kids in that position don't jump into NHL action in a matter of months.

I think you’re viewing the WJC incorrectly
this year. Byfield should be the # 1C and he isn’t because of the addition of Cozens and Dach. He’d easily make the roster if these fringe NHLers weren’t playing. And I think Pronman is off about Newhook and other NCAA guys. Hockey Canada is always biased towards players that take that route.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I grasp it perfectly.

I'm saying that if Poulin can't distinguish himself enough among juniors to earn a starting spot on a WJC roster - whatever the circumstances - it's unlikely that he'll be able to contribute in a top 9 role for a contender in a matter of months. But ya know, we'll see.

You really don't if you follow up "I grasp it perfectly" with that.

There are more to roster decisions than "play the better player". If Poulin doesn't play over some bottom-6 player, that doesn't mean that Poulin didn't "do enough to distinguish himself". It means that the coach thought the player they played was more suited for what they wanted in the bottom-6 than Poulin. Your same argument can be used to say that Riikola didn't "do enough to distinguish himself" when Johnson was here and that's why Johnson played over him. No, Johnson played over Riikola because Johnson fit what Sullivan wanted in that role better than Riikola did.

The Penguins are not Team Canada, and Sullivan is not Tourigny. Reasons that Poulin may be pushed out of a spot on Team Canada may not be applicable on the Penguins. There are things with the Penguins that give Poulin an advantage for making the team, namely the roster openings, the lack of young talent and the lack of cap space the Penguins have. None of those apply to Team Canada. The reasons Poulin may or may not make Team Canada and the reasons Poulin may or may not make the Penguins are 2 entirely separate things.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let me make an analogy to the Penguins with respect to Poulin on Team Canada. Remember when Guentzel first came into the NHL? Kunitz got injured, so Guentzel got the call-up and slid onto Malkin's line. He had 3 goals and 4 points in 5 games with Malkin and Kessel. When Kunitz got back, remember what happened to Guentzel? He was sent back down to WBS.

Guentzel being sent back down to WBS in that situation did not mean that Scott Wilson and Tom Kuhnhackl were better than him. It meant that Sullivan thought that Kuhnhackl and Wilson in their roles made more sense than Guentzel taking their spot. The argument being made in here about Poulin is basically "Guentzel can't play in the Penguins top-6 because he can't show enough to beat out Wilson and Kuhnhackl for a spot" in November 2016.

If Poulin loses out on his spot, it's because someone like Dach, Byfield or Cozens (who wouldn't be on the team under normal circumstances) took his spot. And frankly, if the Penguins had any of Dach, Byfield or Cozens, no one would be talking about Poulin making the NHL this year. The competition that Poulin is going up against for a top-6 spot for Team Canada is better than the competition Poulin would be going up against for a 3rd line winger spot for the Penguins.

 

[Peat]

I think all of the points about why Poulin's WJC selection, particularly in this case, are kinda moot so I won't bother repeating them, but I would add there's pretty little risk of getting shut out of the Pens due to the team wanting a PK specialist when we could roll with Rust and Kapanen as major PKing wingers no worries.

Not to mention it's possible (although not probable) that the Pens like him as a PKer more than Team Canada.

I agree wholeheartedly with this, I guess to clarify i meant that I don’t see why people are expect it to happen.

I think the big reason I believe in it as a major possibility is the team seem very interested in happening. They're the judges after all. And while you could see this as stock boosting if you take a pinch of salt, I think you can also look at the roster and see it being really advantageous for the team if an ELC does claim a spot.

Funny thing is if you caught some scrimmages and have followed I think Pronman is wrong and Poulin is exactly who the coach is gonna ask to play a 3rd wheel defensive baby sitter type of role. Tourigny is playing the crap out of the kid.

Rees has been good though.

This is a good point. A lot can change so we'll see, but Poulin's currently playing with Byfield and Krebs. It's going to be monstrous tight but as things stand, he looks pretty well liked there.

 

[Gurglesons]

This is a good point. A lot can change so we'll see, but Poulin's currently playing with Byfield and Krebs. It's going to be monstrous tight but as things stand, he looks pretty well liked there.

Yeah, I think without Cozens, Dach, and who knows about Laf if they don't have a season, Poulin would be playing first line wing and players like Perfetti and Newhook wouldn't be playing wing and would be natural centers.

I also think we are going by Pronman's assessment who while being a solid mind is definitely wrong 50% of the time as it goes with prospects and potential. And Pronman's argument is that there are too many skilled players in the top six to add Poulin who is easily the most skilled out of the bottom six options, so I don't see that as a "negative".

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Let me make an analogy to the Penguins with respect to Poulin on Team Canada. Remember when Guentzel first came into the NHL? Kunitz got injured, so Guentzel got the call-up and slid onto Malkin's line. He had 3 goals and 4 points in 5 games with Malkin and Kessel. When Kunitz got back, remember what happened to Guentzel? He was sent back down to WBS.

Guentzel being sent back down to WBS in that situation did not mean that Scott Wilson and Tom Kuhnhackl were better than him. It meant that Sullivan thought that Kuhnhackl and Wilson in their roles made more sense than Guentzel taking their spot. The argument being made in here about Poulin is basically "Guentzel can't play in the Penguins top-6 because he can't show enough to beat out Wilson and Kuhnhackl for a spot" in November 2016.

If Poulin loses out on his spot, it's because someone like Dach, Byfield or Cozens (who wouldn't be on the team under normal circumstances) took his spot. And frankly, if the Penguins had any of Dach, Byfield or Cozens, no one would be talking about Poulin making the NHL this year. The competition that Poulin is going up against for a top-6 spot for Team Canada is better than the competition Poulin would be going up against for a 3rd line winger spot for the Penguins.

Who said anything about "better"?

What line is Poulin expected to play on for the Pens this year?

 

[Empoleon8771]

As an aside, I understand why Cozens is still being loaned to Team Canada for the WJC, but I'm honestly not sure why Dach is. Does Dach really have anything to gain by dunking on junior players for 2 weeks? In the playoffs, Dach was playing 19 minutes a night for the Hawks and put up good numbers (6 points in 9 games). He also finished last year pretty strong after being given a larger role, with having 12 points in his last 21 games while playing a bit under 16 minutes a night.

I'm not really sure I get the Hawks allowing Dach to go to the WJC. It would be like the Devils allowing Hughes or the Rangers allowing Kakko or Lafreniere to go to the WJC. I just don't see a large enough benefit to outweigh the potential injury risks.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Who said anything about "better"?

What line is Poulin expected to play on for the Pens this year?

How many times do I have to say "Mike Sullivan is not the head coach of Team Canada" for you to get that?

Sullivan and Tourigny are making 2 entirely different rosters with 2 entirely different mindsets. Tourigny not wanting to play Poulin in the bottom-6 because he wants to have established PKers in a short tournament is not proof that Sullivan will somehow not want to play Poulin in the bottom-6 for the same reason. It's really not that hard, and I have no clue why you're being this dense about it.

Poulin making or not making TC and Poulin making the Penguins are completely unrelated from each other. If Poulin isn't a regular for TC, it's because Tourigny thought that the other top-6 options were better than Poulin (which they are) and Poulin didn't fit what Tourigny wanted in his bottom-6. That means nothing with respect to his chances at making the Penguins, because Sullivan and the Penguins are not Tourigny and TC.

 

[Gurglesons]

As an aside, I understand why Cozens is still being loaned to Team Canada for the WJC, but I'm honestly not sure why Dach is. Does Dach really have anything to gain by dunking on junior players for 2 weeks? In the playoffs, Dach was playing 19 minutes a night for the Hawks and put up good numbers (6 points in 9 games). He also finished last year pretty strong after being given a larger role, with having 12 points in his last 21 games while playing a bit under 16 minutes a night.

I'm not really sure I get the Hawks allowing Dach to go to the WJC. It would be like the Devils allowing Hughes or the Rangers allowing Kakko or Lafreniere to go to the WJC. I just don't see a large enough benefit to outweigh the potential injury risks.

Because he can take part in camp giving him ice time. I think it is because they are based in Canada so it makes it easier for them to take part versus other prospects needing to fly in and quarantine because of the border.

 

[Peat]

Yeah, I think without Cozens, Dach, and who knows about Laf if they don't have a season, Poulin would be playing first line wing and players like Perfetti and Newhook wouldn't be playing wing and would be natural centers.

I also think we are going by Pronman's assessment who while being a solid mind is definitely wrong 50% of the time as it goes with prospects and potential. And Pronman's argument is that there are too many skilled players in the top six to add Poulin who is easily the most skilled out of the bottom six options, so I don't see that as a "negative".

Honestly, I think I'd struggle to make too many guesses about what would be happening even if Cozens, Dach, etc.etc. were out of the picture. There's been 26 Canadian forwards taken in the first round in the last two years; that is an insane amount. You have to go back to 2015 to find the last time double figures of Canadian forwards were taken in the first round. Even if they were missing more guys than just Lafreniere, it's a very very rich crop and some really good players would be staying at home despite being good enough, depending on what the coaching staff sees. But yeah, I think that if you omitted the guys who you'd be expected to be held back by NHL teams, Poulin is probably a guarantee. Particularly given the way the coach is using him.

And yes, Pronman gets it wrong at least as often as most people in this game (i.e. regularly) and I think his article makes it very clear that he's guessing rather than going on inside info.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

How many times do I have to say "Mike Sullivan is not the head coach of Team Canada" for you to get that?

Sullivan and Tourigny are making 2 entirely different rosters with 2 entirely different mindsets. Tourigny not wanting to play Poulin in the bottom-6 because he wants to have established PKers in a short tournament is not proof that Sullivan will somehow not want to play Poulin in the bottom-6 for the same reason. It's really not that hard, and I have no clue why you're being this dense about it.

Poulin making or not making TC and Poulin making the Penguins are completely unrelated from each other. If Poulin isn't a regular for TC, it's because Tourigny thought that the other top-6 options were better than Poulin (which they are) and Poulin didn't fit what Tourigny wanted in his bottom-6. That means nothing with respect to his chances at making the Penguins, because Sullivan and the Penguins are not Tourigny and TC.

I never said there was any connection between the two.

Only that if Poulin can't distinguish himself enough to get on the WJC roster, I don't think it bodes well for his chances to make the Pens.

Any player trying to make our top 9 should be able to shoehorn himself into any WJC top 12.

 

[Odie Cleghorn]

Team Canada is also the team that rode Zach Fucale for years because he played on a stack Halifax team with MacKinnon and Drouin, despite having a shitload of other options that consistently put up better numbers than him. Fucale starting for TC in 2014, despite what guys like Comrie, Murray and Jarry were doing that year and in the previous year, was an absolute joke.

You can do this with basically any team/player/coach. Coaches constantly make decisions for reasons that aren't player talent, in the name of thinking it will "help them win".

Fucale starting was a joke? He wasn't NHL calibre but he has won most of the tournaments he has been in.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fucale starting was a joke? He wasn't NHL calibre but he has won most of the tournaments he has been in.

Like I said, his entire resume was that he played for stacked teams. It's not hard to guess why he "won most of the tournaments he has been in" when you look at the rosters he was a part of. He was certainly good for parts of those runs, especially the 2013 run in the QMJHL, but he was a part of some downright insane junior teams.

It's actually insane how good of teams he played on while in the Q. It seems like he played with at least 3 guys in every season who would end up top-6 forwards (MacKinnon, Drouin, Meier, Ehlers and Duclair) or top-4 D (Graves and Weegar) in the NHL, and that doesn't even touch on the depth NHLers or good AHLers like Erne, Timashov, Frk and whatnot. That's an insane amount of talent on 1 team, especially considering how good the forwards are.