Pittsburgh Penguins Prospects Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,445
73,631
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
He was compared to those players for a reason, and it wasn't because his best case scenario was a 3rd liner.

I mean, the words around him is that his best case scenario is a 3rd liner.

“My opinion is he projects as a bottom-six forward in the NHL, which is shared by a poll of NHL scouts now and at the time of his draft. “ Pronman on him after the trade.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,528
21,072
I mean, the words around him is that his best case scenario is a 3rd liner.

“My opinion is he projects as a bottom-six forward in the NHL, which is shared by a poll of NHL scouts now and at the time of his draft. “ Pronman on him after the trade.

A projection is not a best case scenario. It's a most likely scenario.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,445
73,631
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
That's moot IMO. His trajectory didn't change. He hasn't overperformed or underperformed.

That's not true. He was drafted as a center and has predominately played wing in the SHL. He has seen his offense level off versus a upwards trajectory and he likely won't be playing in the NHL until 21-22 at the earliest.

No one I trust in terms of prospect writers has said Hallander is going to be a top six forward, really ever. I think you overrating Hallander to say he has the skill set to be a top six forward even in a best case scenario. High end projections I've seen place him in the Hagelin camp who was not a top six winger on a contender if we are going to say Kapanen isn't a top six winger on a contender.
 

Peat

Registered User
Jun 14, 2016
29,290
25,206
That's not true. He was drafted as a center and has predominately played wing in the SHL. He has seen his offense level off versus a upwards trajectory and he likely won't be playing in the NHL until 21-22 at the earliest.

No one I trust in terms of prospect writers has said Hallander is going to be a top six forward, really ever. I think you overrating Hallander to say he has the skill set to be a top six forward even in a best case scenario. High end projections I've seen place him in the Hagelin camp who was not a top six winger on a contender if we are going to say Kapanen isn't a top six winger on a contender.

Hagelin routinely played top six on a contender for us. I don't think he's as talented as Kapanen is, but Hagelin exactly understood his role and had very strong attributes in a few areas that made him very good at it, and he could be part of contender top sixes. The question is whether Kapanen can understand his role and contribute to a top six (if he does understand his role, he'll be better), showing he was not used to his full potential in Toronto, or whether he can't, in which case he's a skilled third liner or top six on a bad team.

Which I think is a pertinent point for Hallander as Wheeler at least still says Hallander can be that top six third wheel, and most of the most recent prospect assessments seem to paint a picture of a guy who can be. Now, whether people consider that a top six forward, or whether people look mostly for the skill and scoring potential, I leave to them, but the assessments for Hallander have always revolved mainly around his tenacity, IQ and ability to understand his role, with a decent amount of skill sprinkled in, so I'm not sure how much his trajectory has altered on that. I think hopes of him being a "true top six skill" guy did once exist and are now probably gone (although it wouldn't be a huge surprise if he took a big jump one year and changed things), but they were never his main chance of spending a lot of time in a top six.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,445
73,631
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Hagelin routinely played top six on a contender for us. I don't think he's as talented as Kapanen is, but Hagelin exactly understood his role and had very strong attributes in a few areas that made him very good at it, and he could be part of contender top sixes. The question is whether Kapanen can understand his role and contribute to a top six (if he does understand his role, he'll be better), showing he was not used to his full potential in Toronto, or whether he can't, in which case he's a skilled third liner or top six on a bad team.

No, he didn't. Unless you are considering the 17-18 team a contender.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,528
21,072
That's not true. He was drafted as a center and has predominately played wing in the SHL. He has seen his offense level off versus a upwards trajectory and he likely won't be playing in the NHL until 21-22 at the earliest.

No one I trust in terms of prospect writers has said Hallander is going to be a top six forward, really ever. I think you overrating Hallander to say he has the skill set to be a top six forward even in a best case scenario. High end projections I've seen place him in the Hagelin camp who was not a top six winger on a contender if we are going to say Kapanen isn't a top six winger on a contender.

Hallander's SHL pace was fine. He improved his pace in '19-'20 despite coming back from long-term injury.

Hagelin was clearly a complementary top 6 winger on a contender. Kapanen's a very good player but he hasn't shown he can complement star players the way Hagelin did, which is of course one of the main bones of contention.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,445
73,631
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Hallander's SHL pace was fine. He improved his pace in '19-'20 despite coming back from long-term injury.

Hagelin was clearly a complementary top 6 winger on a contender. Kapanen's a very good player but he hasn't shown he can complement star players the way Hagelin did, which is of course one of the main bones of contention.

Hags has never been a complementary top six winger on a championship squad.

I'd argue NYR fans complained the same way they did about Hags as Toronto fans did Kapanen.

Revisiting the Hagelin/Etem trade. Reads word for word tbh like the Kapanen trade and I'd argue Etem had more value at that point than Hallander to kind of offset the value of the pick.
 

Peat

Registered User
Jun 14, 2016
29,290
25,206
No, he didn't. Unless you are considering the 17-18 team a contender.

He spent 600+ 5v5 minutes with Geno and Sid in the regular season for the back to back seasons and would have spent more in the post-season if we weren't conserving an extremely successful third line one season (at the top six's expense) and he wasn't injured the other. As far as I'm concerned, that qualifies - I straight up have no time for only post-season mattering.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,445
73,631
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
He spent 600+ 5v5 minutes with Geno and Sid in the regular season for the back to back seasons and would have spent more in the post-season if we weren't conserving an extremely successful third line one season (at the top six's expense) and he wasn't injured the other. As far as I'm concerned, that qualifies - I straight up have no time for only post-season mattering.

Fair. But his 5v5 numbers are largely a mirage given how Sheary, Jake and Rust quintessential pieces of both runs (Sheary in 15-16, Jake in 16-17) were forced to earn their minutes.
 

Tom Hanks

Spelling mistakes brought to you by my iPhone.
Nov 10, 2017
30,408
32,434
Watch for this kid in the next draft. A real speedster.

hnh.hck_.2-16-11204.jpg
 

Peat

Registered User
Jun 14, 2016
29,290
25,206
Fair. But his 5v5 numbers are largely a mirage given how Sheary, Jake and Rust quintessential pieces of both runs (Sheary in 15-16, Jake in 16-17) were forced to earn their minutes.

Do you mean he got more minutes in the top 6 than he deserved because the kids had to go prove themselves in the bottom 6?

Because if so, then that's a fair comment - but I also think it's fair comment that Hagelin more than proved he could handle those minutes, and the promotions of the kids in the post-season were about team selection decisions outside of Hagelin's individual comment. I generally believe one of the defining factors of those seasons (and probably 17-18 too) was having six wings who were completely trustworthy in top six roles, and the depth and flexibility that came with it (even if not all of them were conventional top six talents).

I'd also add that it seems like we're all very tightly clustered over our assessment of Hallander (probably because we're all working from the same limited number of scouting reports and highlights), and that the majority of this debate seems to be about the murky definitions of two-way forwards between clear fourth liners and clear conventional top six talents.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,528
21,072
Hags has never been a complementary top six winger on a championship squad.

Who said he was? Why has the "championship" caveat been added here?

I'd argue NYR fans complained the same way they did about Hags as Toronto fans did Kapanen.

Revisiting the Hagelin/Etem trade. Reads word for word tbh like the Kapanen trade and I'd argue Etem had more value at that point than Hallander to kind of offset the value of the pick.

That's great, but it doesn't change that Hagelin became a complementary top 6 forward in Pittsburgh.
 

Gurglesons

Registered User
Dec 18, 2009
91,445
73,631
San Diego, CA
last-train-tocool.blogspot.com
Do you mean he got more minutes in the top 6 than he deserved because the kids had to go prove themselves in the bottom 6?

Because if so, then that's a fair comment - but I also think it's fair comment that Hagelin more than proved he could handle those minutes, and the promotions of the kids in the post-season were about team selection decisions outside of Hagelin's individual comment. I generally believe one of the defining factors of those seasons (and probably 17-18 too) was having six wings who were completely trustworthy in top six roles, and the depth and flexibility that came with it (even if not all of them were conventional top six talents).

I'd also add that it seems like we're all very tightly clustered over our assessment of Hallander (probably because we're all working from the same limited number of scouting reports and highlights), and that the majority of this debate seems to be about the murky definitions of two-way forwards between clear fourth liners and clear conventional top six talents.

I can agree with this. Hallander is a bottom six guy that because of his x-factors defensively could be a fit with one of our generational centers much like Hagelin.

I think @Jesse really lifted expectations when he compared him to Hornqvist. Although that one Euro beat writer compared him to Killorn so what do I know.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peat

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
76,528
21,072
Just like Sheary then right?

Sheary was a good complementary forward in Pittsburgh for 3/4 of one season, yes. But I think this discussion has gotten sufficiently off-track.

Hallander's skillset and projection suggests that his best-case scenario is a complementary top 6 forward in a Hagelin/Hornqvist mold. That doesn't mean he'll hit it, but that's what he could be if things break right.
 

cygnus47

Registered User
Sep 14, 2013
7,510
2,594
Hagelin's problem was that he couldn't finish, not that he made his teammates worse. Kapanen is way more skilled than Hagelin, he's just got total tunnel vision and doesn't use his teammates effectively. When Kap's on the ice, he takes the puck away from everyone else and doesn't do enough with it for a top 6 role. Hagelin at least can fetch pucks and get out of the way.
 
Last edited:

Lust for Life

Registered User
Jun 30, 2018
848
1,106
The team that Jesper Lindgren is playing for in Sweden changed head coach last week. They haven't played since basically (they played a game the same day), but perhaps he'll start playing for a better team soon.

Jesper hasn't changed much in his playing style, though. Still an offensive defenseman with questionable at best defensive play. Erik Karlsson with a much, much lower ceiling.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Giskard

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
Hagelin's problem was that he couldn't finish, not that he made his teammates worse. Kapanen is way more skilled than Hagelin, he's just got total tunnel vision and doesn't use his teammates effectively. When Kap's on the ice, he takes the puck away from everyone else and doesn't do enough with it for a top 6 role. Hagelin at least can fetch pucks and get out of the way.

That cant be true or else Sullivan would have resigned. Already didnt like AG, Kahun, etc.

I dont think we have seen the best from Kapanen yet. Yes he was in their top 6 but those guys were young players too and still developing. Crosby could make things work with Kap far better than who he had in Toronto. Especially with Guentzel or Zucker on the other side.

But if he is what you said, then he would be better off on the 3rd line. Two wingers with tunnel vision... On each side. Jankowski just needs to skate the puck in and pass it to whoever is open for the quick shot. Keep it simple. Both McCann and Kap have the speed to be set up at their spots by the time MJ gets it to one of them. And if he isnt working out with them, We try Blueger. If he isnt, JR calls Guerin and gets Bonino back.

McCann - Bonino - Kapanen would be a very good 3rd line.
 

JimmyTwoTimes

Registered User
Apr 13, 2010
19,958
5,281
Hagelin's problem was that he couldn't finish, not that he made his teammates worse. Kapanen is way more skilled than Hagelin, he's just got total tunnel vision and doesn't use his teammates effectively. When Kap's on the ice, he takes the puck away from everyone else and doesn't do enough with it for a top 6 role. Hagelin at least can fetch pucks and get out of the way.

Hags started his career at 23. Kap at 19. Tough to compare the two right now. Kapanen just turned 24 and has 200 games played. His next few years are when we should see him take his game to another level.

Also, since Hags rookie season he played a ton of postseason games each year. That also adds more experience quicker. The first round exits dont do that.

As for the trade, even if Kapanen doesnt gel with the top line its still a success. Since he will then make our 3rd line better. While we add someone else for the top line. There are a lot of UFAs still unsigned who likely have to wait til during the season. If they see an opening on our top line, it could entice someone like Granlund to choose the Pens over another team(assuming hes still not signed 20 or so games into the season) .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->