Pittsburgh Penguins Prospects Thread

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Peat

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I'm curious to see what he means by "depth guy". Does that mean another Pettersson caliber guy? I agree with that. Does he mean like a Ruhwedel "depth" guy? I don't agree with that.

My guess is he meant split the difference - career third pairing - but that's just a guess. I would also point out Wheeler's got a noted bias towards high skill players and has an admitted historic weakness in evaluating non-flashy smart mobile dmen that mightn't have gone away - Heiskanen is his big example, but he's still super low on Seider compared to everybody else - so maybe there's a pinch of salt to be taken here as that's the POJ type.

Wheeler has definitely shortened his timespan on POJ from the start of the season though, so that's nice.
 

Jacob

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Not to be a negative Nelly but I think POJ is like a #6 or #7.. and if he’s just a #7 you can get one of those on the waiver wire or free agent scrap heap without the rookie mistakes.

He does seem like a good candidate to replace JJ on the 3rd pair but you still have to get rid of Johnson first.
 

Peat

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How did Joseph and Poulin look in their first scrimmage?

You can watch it on YouTube if you like - I'm currently rewatching and taking notes - but

Poulin's strong. Had no problem dislodging the puck from Angello with a hit or holding off a pinching JJ to complete a zone exit. Didn't look to have any problems with the pace of the game. Made a bunch of small smart plays. Didn't wow or dazzle, didn't get sufficient separation to really pull teams apart except for one breakaway where he didn't calm a bobbling puck.

POJ I'd want to say more about after re-watching as I thought his zone exits weren't great but want to see more, but he's quick and covers a lot of ice and is making good calls. Doesn't look like he's made out of pipe cleaner.

I think you could probably start both in the NHL next year but there'd be questions about whether that's the right development call.

AJ impressed me the most of the other prospects. Any guy who could leave Letang trailing multiple times has my vote and his saucer pass for Angello's goal was sweet. If he can just fix whatever's keeping him out of the NHL, we've got a player. I want to see Lafferty to go the Rust School of Patience.
 
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CheckingLineCenter

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Poulin looked strong and smart, might be ready for a 3rd line role by next year. POJ wasn't very noticeable one way or the other.

Among the prospects, Lafferty stole the show. Fast, hungry and imposing his will. Adam Johnson looked good too.


You can watch it on YouTube if you like - I'm currently rewatching and taking notes - but

Poulin's strong. Had no problem dislodging the puck from Angello with a hit or holding off a pinching JJ to complete a zone exit. Didn't look to have any problems with the pace of the game. Made a bunch of small smart plays. Didn't wow or dazzle, didn't get sufficient separation to really pull teams apart except for one breakaway where he didn't calm a bobbling puck.

POJ I'd want to say more about after re-watching as I thought his zone exits weren't great but want to see more, but he's quick and covers a lot of ice and is making good calls. Doesn't look like he's made out of pipe cleaner.

I think you could probably start both in the NHL next year but there'd be questions about whether that's the right development call.

AJ impressed me the most of the other prospects. Any guy who could leave Letang trailing multiple times has my vote and his saucer pass for Angello's goal was sweet. If he can just fix whatever's keeping him out of the NHL, we've got a player. I want to see Lafferty to go the Rust School of Patience.

Yeah, I was/am gonna try to watch but am currently insanely busy with a renovation + move. The little free time I’ve had I’ve been coaching lol. Hopefully things calm down in time for the real games.

Thanks for the good notes. Have heard Laff’s name from every corner of the internet in camp, which is good. After this year, (despite age) I think he has possible full time top 9 upside to point where I could see a pre-2019/20 Rust emergence.

is AJ benefiting from a intra-squad scrimmage set up without a ton of board play and physicality? Always like to hear of guys playing well but have to think he’s gone this offseason by his own choosing.

Regarding the Big Two, I think Poulin should go back to junior for the full year and POJ is maybe a “start in the AHL then debut mid season” typa guy.. but things are obviously pretty fluid right now.
 

Peat

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Yeah, I was/am gonna try to watch but am currently insanely busy with a renovation + move. The little free time I’ve had I’ve been coaching lol. Hopefully things calm down in time for the real games.

Thanks for the good notes. Have heard Laff’s name from every corner of the internet in camp, which is good. After this year, (despite age) I think he has possible full time top 9 upside to point where I could see a pre-2019/20 Rust emergence.

is AJ benefiting from a intra-squad scrimmage set up without a ton of board play and physicality? Always like to hear of guys playing well but have to think he’s gone this offseason by his own choosing.

Regarding the Big Two, I think Poulin should go back to junior for the full year and POJ is maybe a “start in the AHL then debut mid season” typa guy.. but things are obviously pretty fluid right now.

Right now Lafferty is like an early Rust doppleganger (also slightly less handsy blasty McCann) so yeah, I see that potential but I think he's going to have to refine it quicker as our top 9 is harder to break into than when either other player did it, not to mention McCann probably doesn't need to play with clone.

I think 100% AJ is benefitting from the way the scrimmages are (most of the strong skaters are looking very good right now) and he's always looked good in camp situations like this, so I'm not going to say he'll definitely fulfil what he can be. As for whether he goes... well, we'll see what other orgs offer, but he's not in a bad spot here. But if he can find a far shorter queue, good for him.

I think POJ starting in the AHL and pushing up is right - he's spent a long time being told to play safe hockey and a little more time pushing the envelope might help - but Poulin, well, I dunno. His line was Varone and Miletec vs Angello, Lafferty and AJ so he was kind of up against it, but he looked good and I think having better linemates would offer up a lot more opportunity for him. What he needs to develop are things that I can see getting taught better by the NHL because there's no doubt he can dissect teams if given space, now he needs to learn to do it without so much of it. The best thing for his development would be the AHL - or Europe, if that was something NA kids did regularly and well - but that's not a choice and I'm not sure which of junior and NHL is absolutely best for him. Obviously few prospects have been hurt for slow cooking but that doesn't mean it's always the best. Plus... team needs do factor in here a little.
 

Peat

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In his Q&A, Yohe says apparently Pronman loves POJ's game film from WBS this season. Yohe also thinks Poulin sees NHL time at some point next season.
 

Empoleon8771

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In his Q&A, Yohe says apparently Pronman loves POJ's game film from WBS this season. Yohe also thinks Poulin sees NHL time at some point next season.

Yohe does know the NHL-CHL transfer agreement, right? They can't let him marinade in the AHL like they did with Guentzel. It's NHL or CHL for him, unless there is a rule change or the Q doesn't have a season.
 

Peat

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Yohe does know the NHL-CHL transfer agreement, right? They can't let him marinade in the AHL like they did with Guentzel. It's NHL or CHL for him, unless there is a rule change or the Q doesn't have a season.

Maybe I should ask him in the next Q&A :laugh:

I assumed he thought Poulin would play after the CHL season but not sure whether that's actually a goer in reality.
 

Jacob

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They never seem aware of that kinda stuff even though it's been the same for like 30 years.
 

chethejet

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Pens have forwards next year in Lafferty, Angelo, to compete for PT. Poulin can play in juniors for another year and work on his game. Don't want to rush him. Pens will be loaded at forward next year. Losing Marleau, Sherry, is no big deal. I do like Rodriquez as a depth guy. Plus who knows what happens with Bjugstad.
 

Peat

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Pens have forwards next year in Lafferty, Angelo, to compete for PT. Poulin can play in juniors for another year and work on his game. Don't want to rush him. Pens will be loaded at forward next year. Losing Marleau, Sherry, is no big deal. I do like Rodriquez as a depth guy. Plus who knows what happens with Bjugstad.

What's he got to work on that juniors is the best place?

I think he might be rushing us more than we'd be rushing him. He's almost definitely Lafferty's or Angello's equal already - and has the potential to have a far steeper upwards trajectory. We're not so loaded that a guy with his skill shouldn't be looked at.
 

CheckingLineCenter

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What's he got to work on that juniors is the best place?

I think he might be rushing us more than we'd be rushing him. He's almost definitely Lafferty's or Angello's equal already - and has the potential to have a far steeper upwards trajectory. We're not so loaded that a guy with his skill shouldn't be looked at.

I think he should have to blow them away and force his way in like Marino did. I would love that.

If he plays well but there’s no huge gap between him and Angello or Laff or Erod etc. I’d just send him back and use those guys. Easier to have those guys who can go up and down to the A while not having to worry about getting them minutes and opportunity.

He was on a ridiculous team in the Q this season. Yes he probably was already the best player on Sherbrooke, but I think team strength inflated his #s a lil but. They’re losing a lot of OA talent and I don’t think it’s the worst thing for him to go back and be “the guy” without a ton of help offensively.
 

Peat

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I think he should have to blow them away and force his way in like Marino did. I would love that.

If he plays well but there’s no huge gap between him and Angello or Laff or Erod etc. I’d just send him back and use those guys. Easier to have those guys who can go up and down to the A while not having to worry about getting them minutes and opportunity.

He was on a ridiculous team in the Q this season. Yes he probably was already the best player on Sherbrooke, but I think team strength inflated his #s a lil but. They’re losing a lot of OA talent and I don’t think it’s the worst thing for him to go back and be “the guy” without a ton of help offensively.

Honestly, he might have blown me away a little that last scrimmage :dunno: I want to be a bit conservative about it because one training camp game, but he was constantly making chances and heady plays. I don't think I was the only one as I noticed he kept popping up with Malkin and Rust late on, and at first I thought was him overrunning shifts but Haase's write up said that was a deliberate thing from Sullivan. Watched again and that was deffo just being far side winger on shift changes.

Development wise, he already was the guy on the island for Sherbrooke in his draft year, and he was a guy making plays and finding team mates in tight spots rather than just finishing chances and bulling to the net this year, so I'm not sure how much that'll help him. And sure being on a strong team helped his numbers, but he also had some quiet patches coping with injury and I think just improved a lot throughout the season. Or at least that's the impression I get from Wheeler's article/love letter in the Athletic, the way his numbers spiked around mid-January, and just the difference between him and camp and him now.

Normally I'd be a bit more restrained (well, I like to think I would be), but there's two things for me

1) Team Need - This team is likely to have an open slot in the top 9 next year (assuming Simon takes one when fit again and Sheary leaving), and I'd like it to go to a guy who's good with the puck on his stick and has vision and will hold onto it if needed, because the open slots seem to be next to Sid (demands passes) and McCann/Hornqvist (neither really patient playmakers). That guy can't cost much due to the cap. ERod's the one of the guys you named who I think might have those chops but really, I think the best thing for the team is if Poulin takes that slot. For me, if all things are equal, I'd still probably be wanting him to come up due to skillset. If he develops slow, I still think he'd hold onto a bottom six spot respectably, if he develops fast in the hothouse, either he slides up next to Sid or he makes the third line a bully. I don't see that potential with the other guys. Poulin is the biggest payout available.

2) Developmental opportunity - Right now, I think the big show in Pittsburgh is a great place for young players if they're ready. This isn't like McCann or Jack Hughes being pitched straight into a bad team with not much help, this is a winning organisation with a ton of confidence with enough depth that his role can be eased or cranked up as needed, and a room full of some of the best players in hockey to emulate. A lot of his development will be driven by who he's around and training anyway, as long as he doesn't get starved of ice time and loses confidence in himself. Which I don't think will happen, because I think he's ready or incredibly close to it.

Which I guess is the main thing. And not ready as in he's strong as an ox, or can keep up with play, or can make great passes, but ready as in best I can tell he's got a lot of little pro habits that means he doesn't have to constantly focus on the small stuff rather than actually playing the game, and that if his offence dries off for a few games he isn't left high and dry because he can still influence the game as a responsible bottom sixer. He reads the game well - I'm watching again and his first shift, POJ bank passes for someone who doesn't read the pass and it's a turnover to Czuczman by the right circle. Poulin is hauling ass from the high left wing before Czuczman even touches the puck and he arrives at exactly where Czuczman tries to make the play in time to a stick on it, messing up the zone exit. If he'd been a bit luckier it bounces back into the zone rather than out and there's a possible 2 on 1 for black. He's got good control - next shift he's the high forward in the slot for his own shift. He starts going (soft speed) when he sees there's a breakout; the pass is behind but there's only the slightest hesitation in his stride as he reaches behind to collect it and bring it in front of him. In defence, he's working towards passing lanes rather than the man - third shift, AJ's got the puck on the right boards in Black's zone, Poulin is close but not close enough to challenge so he just fades behind in case AJ tries to work it back to Marino. In attack, he's always looking for where the next pass might go and if he gets the puck, he's looking for guys rather than looking to attack one on one (although he will) - shift five, he gets the loose puck and a chance to breakout, around the halfway line Marino is offering him a chance to try and go outside him but Poulin elects to get the pass through him (and does, albeit with a slight bobble from Marino getting some of it). It's cleared when Varone overskates the puck shortly afterwards but Black get it back in the neutral zone; Poulin gets himself open to have a 1 on none off of the pass. His first touch slightly lets him down here so he can't pull a move, but he's able to settle the bobbling puck while skating fast enough that Angello loses ground on him (Angello tries to lift his stick and it's like Poulin barely notices) and get a decent shot.

Like, I'm a little wowed because he made something good - sometimes multiple something good - happen attacking wise on 3 of his first 5 shifts (fourth shift he dispossessed Lafferty on the blue line to end the Gold attack and get the shift change too), but it's focusing on the details that make me think he's ready. I'm a long way from having the best hockey talent evaluating eye in the world but he looks to have a lot of the small things that coaches love.

And yeah, an argument remains that having him continue to practice some of his finer finesse skills and shooting and deception at the slower pace of junior until he really nails them would be best for him long run... but I'm really not sure how much there is left to milk there.

If he plays like this in training camp for next season I think he's got a spot.

This message was brought to you by the Samuel Poulin Propaganda Foundation.
 
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Empoleon8771

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To me, the big thing that makes me think it's likely that Poulin makes the NHL next year is how well rounded his defensive game is already. This isn't a Sprong situation where his 2-way game is so bad that you can't play him even if he's producing. You can legitimately throw Poulin on the Penguins 4th line in place of ZAR or Tanev and use it the same exact way as you're using it now. There are a lot more opportunities available for Poulin for next year because of how much flexibility he offers, he can play both LW and RW and play in both defensive and offensive roles.

I don't see what he has to gain in juniors that he can't gain in the NHL. As a matter of fact, I think him bullying juniors with his size instead of learning how to produce in the NHL may be bad for his development offensively. His all-around game is good enough where you can play him in an everyday role, and if his offense transitions into the NHL, you have at least a good 3rd line LW for McCann next year.
 

NMK11

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If POJ just becomes a depth player it would be worth it. We're already sheltering an insanely expensive third pairing, might as well play it by committee with all of our depth defensemen who are capable of NHL level play and move out at least JJ if possible.

And if POJ does move up to the NHL this year or next year, I wonder where that leaves Riikola. You have Ruh, Czuczman, and Trotman all as 6/7/8 guys depending on who you talk to and the time of year. If POJ ends up in that field, you have to think Riikola isn't going to want to stick around any longer with his contract up. Particularly if the team brings in a vet bottom pairing guy after this year which I could totally see happening.
 

Empoleon8771

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If POJ just becomes a depth player it would be worth it. We're already sheltering an insanely expensive third pairing, might as well play it by committee with all of our depth defensemen who are capable of NHL level play and move out at least JJ if possible.

And if POJ does move up to the NHL this year or next year, I wonder where that leaves Riikola. You have Ruh, Czuczman, and Trotman all as 6/7/8 guys depending on who you talk to and the time of year. If POJ ends up in that field, you have to think Riikola isn't going to want to stick around any longer with his contract up. Particularly if the team brings in a vet bottom pairing guy after this year which I could totally see happening.

I think Riikola is gone regardless of what happens with POJ, I think his RFA rights get flipped for like a 4th or 5th at the draft.
 

NMK11

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I think Riikola is gone regardless of what happens with POJ, I think his RFA rights get flipped for like a 4th or 5th at the draft.
Sad that he'd be going, I still think he has more to show at this level. But anyway you look at it, if POJ develops into a solid bottom pairing guy, which may be his floor from what I'm hearing, our D looks good going forward. That's three young guys in the top 6 who are only going to get better, Doumolin has years in the tank left, and Letang being Letang I could see him playing until he's 40 with his fitness unless he loses a leg. And even then he could probably outskate half the league.

It might not be the deepest prospect pool in the league, but I have an optimistic look at this teams defense for some time to come.
 

chethejet

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Poulin has shown in the practice time and games his skating is not a liability. But players mature differently and I am always going to defer to another year of development and gaining another year of natural body growth than being a third line winger at best. I want him to be here making a bigger impact with say Sid or Geno in two years. Plus he can play in the AHL for added experience after next year. If Poulin and Legare can become high end talents, that is a major plus for the Pens.
 

chethejet

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We don't know the back story totally here. Maybe he told the Oilers to trade him back east to a contender. Yes the Oilers made some judgement calls but they did what many teams do. Get something for a prospect who was not going to be with them. Pens scouting aside, he is much better than many thought. Good to be lucky sometimes.
 

Freeptop

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On Poulin: I suspect a big factor as to whether Poulin will be going back to Juniors or at least getting a cup of coffee in the NHL next year may be the flat cap. The Pens are going to be letting a bunch of players go because of that, so being able to plug a hole with a player on an ELC would help. I also wouldn't be surprised to see the Pens put a rotating cast of prospects in the lineup to plug holes until a mid-season trade (when they can pro-rate the salary).

On Marino: to be fair, Marino was overshadowed on his college team by the high profile Adam Fox, and within the Oilers' system by a few young defensemen prospects who were drafted higher than him. Very few people were thinking he'd be able to skip his senior year of college and jump right into the NHL. Fortunately for us, Kevin Stevens and Jim Rutherford were two of those very few.
 

CheckingLineCenter

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Honestly, he might have blown me away a little that last scrimmage :dunno: I want to be a bit conservative about it because one training camp game, but he was constantly making chances and heady plays. I don't think I was the only one as I noticed he kept popping up with Malkin and Rust late on, and at first I thought was him overrunning shifts but Haase's write up said that was a deliberate thing from Sullivan. Watched again and that was deffo just being far side winger on shift changes.

Development wise, he already was the guy on the island for Sherbrooke in his draft year, and he was a guy making plays and finding team mates in tight spots rather than just finishing chances and bulling to the net this year, so I'm not sure how much that'll help him. And sure being on a strong team helped his numbers, but he also had some quiet patches coping with injury and I think just improved a lot throughout the season. Or at least that's the impression I get from Wheeler's article/love letter in the Athletic, the way his numbers spiked around mid-January, and just the difference between him and camp and him now.

Normally I'd be a bit more restrained (well, I like to think I would be), but there's two things for me

1) Team Need - This team is likely to have an open slot in the top 9 next year (assuming Simon takes one when fit again and Sheary leaving), and I'd like it to go to a guy who's good with the puck on his stick and has vision and will hold onto it if needed, because the open slots seem to be next to Sid (demands passes) and McCann/Hornqvist (neither really patient playmakers). That guy can't cost much due to the cap. ERod's the one of the guys you named who I think might have those chops but really, I think the best thing for the team is if Poulin takes that slot. For me, if all things are equal, I'd still probably be wanting him to come up due to skillset. If he develops slow, I still think he'd hold onto a bottom six spot respectably, if he develops fast in the hothouse, either he slides up next to Sid or he makes the third line a bully. I don't see that potential with the other guys. Poulin is the biggest payout available.

2) Developmental opportunity - Right now, I think the big show in Pittsburgh is a great place for young players if they're ready. This isn't like McCann or Jack Hughes being pitched straight into a bad team with not much help, this is a winning organisation with a ton of confidence with enough depth that his role can be eased or cranked up as needed, and a room full of some of the best players in hockey to emulate. A lot of his development will be driven by who he's around and training anyway, as long as he doesn't get starved of ice time and loses confidence in himself. Which I don't think will happen, because I think he's ready or incredibly close to it.

Which I guess is the main thing. And not ready as in he's strong as an ox, or can keep up with play, or can make great passes, but ready as in best I can tell he's got a lot of little pro habits that means he doesn't have to constantly focus on the small stuff rather than actually playing the game, and that if his offence dries off for a few games he isn't left high and dry because he can still influence the game as a responsible bottom sixer. He reads the game well - I'm watching again and his first shift, POJ bank passes for someone who doesn't read the pass and it's a turnover to Czuczman by the right circle. Poulin is hauling ass from the high left wing before Czuczman even touches the puck and he arrives at exactly where Czuczman tries to make the play in time to a stick on it, messing up the zone exit. If he'd been a bit luckier it bounces back into the zone rather than out and there's a possible 2 on 1 for black. He's got good control - next shift he's the high forward in the slot for his own shift. He starts going (soft speed) when he sees there's a breakout; the pass is behind but there's only the slightest hesitation in his stride as he reaches behind to collect it and bring it in front of him. In defence, he's working towards passing lanes rather than the man - third shift, AJ's got the puck on the right boards in Black's zone, Poulin is close but not close enough to challenge so he just fades behind in case AJ tries to work it back to Marino. In attack, he's always looking for where the next pass might go and if he gets the puck, he's looking for guys rather than looking to attack one on one (although he will) - shift five, he gets the loose puck and a chance to breakout, around the halfway line Marino is offering him a chance to try and go outside him but Poulin elects to get the pass through him (and does, albeit with a slight bobble from Marino getting some of it). It's cleared when Varone overskates the puck shortly afterwards but Black get it back in the neutral zone; Poulin gets himself open to have a 1 on none off of the pass. His first touch slightly lets him down here so he can't pull a move, but he's able to settle the bobbling puck while skating fast enough that Angello loses ground on him (Angello tries to lift his stick and it's like Poulin barely notices) and get a decent shot.

Like, I'm a little wowed because he made something good - sometimes multiple something good - happen attacking wise on 3 of his first 5 shifts (fourth shift he dispossessed Lafferty on the blue line to end the Gold attack and get the shift change too), but it's focusing on the details that make me think he's ready. I'm a long way from having the best hockey talent evaluating eye in the world but he looks to have a lot of the small things that coaches love.

And yeah, an argument remains that having him continue to practice some of his finer finesse skills and shooting and deception at the slower pace of junior until he really nails them would be best for him long run... but I'm really not sure how much there is left to milk there.

If he plays like this in training camp for next season I think he's got a spot.

This message was brought to you by the Samuel Poulin Propaganda Foundation.

All fair points. I mean if he plays his way in I’m all for it.

Just not penciling him in yet. At 19 I’m not sure how much of a difference he makes + how great a full NHL grind would be for his development.
 
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Peat

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All fair points. I mean if he plays his way in I’m all for it.

Just not penciling him in yet. At 19 I’m not sure how much of a difference he makes + how great a full NHL grind would be for his development.

Depends slightly how you define difference I guess.

And yeah, the grind could be a mistake, but it isn't for all and there's no real way of knowing ahead of time.
 
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