Confirmed Signing with Link: [PIT] D John Marino signs extension (6 years, $4.4M AAV)

[WheresRamziAbid]

Over $4M is expensive of he plays like he has so far this season

If he play like he has in a vacuum he will also likely start getting some help from his forwards/not have to play on his off side/not be paired with someone playing terrible

 

[Riptide]

I've been on HF since 2015. I quit the Pens board during the 2016-17 season and overall took a break from the site. Off the top of my head, the things I have been right about despite being hounded for it (oftentimes relentlessly) at the time:

- Cole was undervalued and trading him+ for Brassard was stupid
- Should've given Sprong more of a chance

You don't have to agree with my opinions, but don't condescend to me or revise history (favorite example is when Pens fans were mocking FLA for the Bjugstad/McCann trade, and then a year later were pretending like it wasn't that bad when they had to retain 50% just to pay somebody to take him).

>but muh cups
that has nothing to do with the conversation. you guys completely overhyped those D to the moon, and when they regressed, you don't own it.

I"m shocked that you're touting these as a "I was proven right". Cole signed for 4.25m and due to personal issues between him and Sullivan wasn't likely to stay here even if we could have afforded him. As for Sprong... he's now on team #3 and cost so little for Washington to acquire that the guy they traded to ANA was claimed on waivers, and has played so well for Washington that he hasn't even played in all of their games, and produced little in the games he did play in.

 

[Riptide]

They guy has had 1 good seaon on any facet and that was last year, his first NHL-season. I havent seen anyone beeing offered a contract this big before without years of beeing extraordinery. Marino has shown 1yr of good hockey. Thats it. The rest of the pack thats been good in their first years of NHL all have been very good their whole career on other facets. Marino has never been a standout before, so you cant compare him to theese guys. Also, all others have to play the NHL for atleast 3yrs before they get their RFA contracts. This was a silverplate for a ?

Well that's easily proven wrong. Sorokin for example signed his 2nd NHL contract before playing a single game in either the AHL or NHL. But looking past that here's a couple other's that didn't have 3 NHL seasons under their belt before they signed a long term RFA contract.

Bordin signed his 6 x 4.16m contract after 1.5 seasons (~130 NHL games)
Josi signed his 7 x 4m contract after 2 half seasons (100 NHL games)

 

[jonlin]

Well that's easily proven wrong. Sorokin for example signed his 2nd NHL contract before playing a single game in either the AHL or NHL. But looking past that here's a couple other's that didn't have 3 NHL seasons under their belt before they signed a long term RFA contract.

Bordin signed his 6 x 4.16m contract after 1.5 seasons (~130 NHL games)
Josi signed his 7 x 4m contract after 2 half seasons (100 NHL games)

And all 3 guys had already been stars in their leagues and internationally at junior level. Theres no comparing theese. Marino had 0 appearences in international hockey at high level as junior and didnt have 1 single standout season at high level in any age. HE LUCKED OUT. Dont you see the difference?

 

[Turin]

There is no one that has been mediocre his whole career as Marino, that suddenly exploded his first NHL-season - dont you get that! He LUCKED out when given a chance as a 22yr old! All bluechip D:s are actually playing as 18-20yr olds. They usually have succeeded in juniors, unlike Marino. Even Oilers didnt believe in this kid and he got a chance from the Penguins and made it work. Even in college he wasnt anything special as an 21yr old! There is not many comparables here. I dont believe he is the real deal and its starting to show!
He is the Ville Leino of defensemen.

If Marinos primary toll would have been hockey sense, he would have a lot better stats in his last Harvard year than 0,33ppg. He actually regressed from the years before. And he wasnt anything special before that either. 1 good year and now hes a star? Lucked out, silverplate, life is set.
Look at Tony deAngelo - Last year 68gp and 53p!!! He has actually been good all his career and where is he now? WAIWERS. I`l have a good laugh in 2yrs when Marino is there and most in this thread eat crow.

Just name one defenseman comparable who stepped in, was analytically dominant defensively and then fell off.

 

[The Nuge]

Just name one defenseman comparable who stepped in, was analytically dominant defensively and then fell off.

I don’t care to look up analytics, but Adam Larsson was a top pairing dman at 23, and one of the top shutdown dmen in the league. He’s fallen off significantly

 

[jonlin]

Just name one defenseman comparable who stepped in, was analytically dominant defensively and then fell off.

Well, dont you understand - theres actually not many mediocre college-players, who hasnt played a single international juniors game, that gets a chance at NHL. Tell me who other D with stats like Marino from juniors and college suddenly gets to NHL?

 

[Hivemind]

Just name one defenseman who was elite defensively in their first season and fell off.

Olli Maatta

 

[elitepete]

I don’t care to look up analytics, but Adam Larsson was a top pairing dman at 23, and one of the top shutdown dmen in the league. He’s fallen off significantly

He “fell off” because refs actually started calling interference and holding penalties much more often.(Which was part of the increase in offense in the league around 3-4 years ago).

Also, the speed of the game increased, which wasn’t good for his game.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Olli Maatta

Who had cancer, the treatment of which forever affected his energy levels, and multiple serious injuries that hampered his footspeed and shot.

 

[Ol' Jase]

What a garbage headline.

David Staples is a garbage writer, so it’s all just about consistency.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Olli Maatta

Yes, if Marino gets cancer and ruined due to other injuries, I can see him going down the Olli Maatta route.

 

[Hivemind]

Who had cancer, the treatment of which forever affected his energy levels, and multiple serious injuries that hampered his footspeed and shot.

The man asked a question, and I gave him an answer that should have been immediately obvious to Penguins fans. It’s also far from the only instance of it happening. Almost every franchise has a young promising player show off and then not pan out for them every few years.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

The man asked a question, and I gave him an answer that should have been immediately obvious to Penguins fans. It’s also far from the only instance of it happening. Almost every franchise has a young promising player show off and then not pan out for them every few years.

Of course, but Olli Maatta's career path--beset as it was by cancer and multiple serious injuries in rapid succession--is basically a worst-case scenario, and even in Maatta's case he managed to be a reliable top-4 defenseman on 2 Cup teams.

 

[PensandCaps]

Olli Maatta

Played at a top 4 level and helped the Pens win two cups.

Absolutely panned out for the Pens. Best case scenario.

I hope Marino helps win two cups aswell.

 

[nbwingsfan]

Played at a top 4 level and helped the Pens win two cups.

Absolutely panned out for the Pens. Best case scenario.

I hope Marino helps win two cups aswell.

Top 4...?

Maatta was 7th in icetime among D in 16/17 and 5th in 15/16...

 

[PensandCaps]

Top 4...?

Maatta was 7th in icetime among D in 16/17 and 5th in 15/16...

I said he played at a top 4 level and helped win two cups. He did. He was very good those two years.

He was a team leading +57 between 15-16/16-7

Also he was 3rd in Ice time in 15-16. And 3rd in ice time in the 16-17 Playoffs, He was vital to that Cup run. You must be reading something wrong

 

[Empoleon8771]

Top 4...?

Maatta was 7th in icetime among D in 16/17 and 5th in 15/16...

This is so insulting disingenuous that I genuinely have no clue how you can legitimately post this.

2015-2016 season: 19:58 TOI/game
2016 playoffs: 17:44 TOI/game (this average is brought down by him getting hurt 31 seconds into a game against the Capitals in round 2, he's at 18:45 TOI/game without that game)
2016-2017 season: 18:04 TOI/game
2017 playoffs: 20:37 TOI/game

But yes, seriously try and argue that he was a 5th-7th D on those teams because you're too lazy to even look at games played total. That makes total sense, but it's expected from the crap usually posted on the main boards.

Edit: I also just realized that it's not only just super disingenuous, but it's also a flat out lie. Maatta was 3rd in TOI/game in the regular season in 2015-2016. He was 5th in the playoffs, but again that was due to his 31 second game against the Capitals in round 2. He would have been 4th without that game.

 

[nbwingsfan]

This is so insulting disingenuous that I genuinely have no clue how you can legitimately post this.

2015-2016 season: 19:58 TOI/game
2016 playoffs: 17:44 TOI/game (this average is brought down by him getting hurt 31 seconds into a game against the Capitals in round 2, he's at 18:45 TOI/game without that game)
2016-2017 season: 18:04 TOI/game
2017 playoffs: 20:37 TOI/game

But yes, seriously try and argue that he was a 5th-7th D on those teams because you're too lazy to even look at games played total. That makes total sense, but it's expected from the crap usually posted on the main boards.

Edit: I also just realized that it's not only just super disingenuous, but it's also a flat out lie. Maatta was 3rd in TOI/game in the regular season in 2015-2016. He was 5th in the playoffs, but again that was due to his 31 second game against the Capitals in round 2. He would have been 4th without that game.

Im talking about regular season. He was 7th in ice time 16/17. His TOI is meaningless when 6 other guys played more. Will have to check 15/16 again

 

[Empoleon8771]

Im talking about regular season. He was 7th in ice time 16/17. His TOI is meaningless when 6 other guys played more. Will have to check 15/16 again

And that is comically disingenuous, to the point where I question if you're serious when you post that.

Maatta played 18:04 a night that year. That is clearly #4 minutes. Just because you're too lazy to look at the games played total doesn't mean Maatta was somehow not in a top-4 role that year. Maatta was clearly a top-4 D in both of the Penguins cup years, arguing otherwise is literally trying to argue the sky is green. Guys who play 18-21 minutes, which is where Maatta fell in both the regular season and playoffs between those 2 years, are clearly top-4 D. Trying to argue otherwise because of where Maatta falls in the TOI ranking, despite completely ignoring the context of "games played" (spoiler alert, Hainsey and Letang didn't play a single game where both were in the lineup), is just horribly disingenuous and I genuinely don't understand what angle you're going at here.

 

[nbwingsfan]

And that is comically disingenuous, to the point where I question if you're serious when you post that.

Maatta played 18:04 a night that year. That is clearly #4 minutes. Just because you're too lazy to look at the games played total doesn't mean Maatta was somehow not in a top-4 role that year. Maatta was clearly a top-4 D in both of the Penguins cup years, arguing otherwise is literally trying to argue the sky is green. Guys who play 18-21 minutes, which is where Maatta fell in both the regular season and playoffs between those 2 years, are clearly top-4 D. Trying to argue otherwise because of where Maatta falls in the TOI ranking, despite completely ignoring the context of "games played" (spoiler alert, Hainsey and Letang didn't play a single game where both were in the lineup), is just horribly disingenuous and I genuinely don't understand what angle you're going at here.

That he played the least amount of minutes of their regular D... That's what I'm getting at. It's kind of a fact.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Just name one defenseman who was elite defensively in their first season and fell off.

Myers, Phaneuf, etc

It happens

 

[Empoleon8771]

That he played the least amount of minutes of their regular D... That's what I'm getting at. It's kind of a fact.

Idk if you just hate context or are just this dense, so I don't know what to tell you.

If you really can't understand that:

1. The players who played more above him never were all healthy or on the team in the same period, with Hainsey being a late-season acquisition and Letang, Daley and Maatta missing a significant amount of games due to injuries
2. Maatta was their #3 in ice time in the playoffs while playing over 20 minutes

I really don't know what to tell you. When the Penguins were healthy, their defense was Letang and 5 guys who were all in the 18-21 minute range (Dumoulin, Daley, Schultz, Maatta and Cole). After Letang went down for the year and was replaced by Hainsey, their defense was 6 guys who were all in the 18-21 minute range. Their defense in the playoffs was running with 3 2nd pairs and all of those pairs got more or less equal ice time.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The man asked a question, and I gave him an answer that should have been immediately obvious to Penguins fans. It’s also far from the only instance of it happening. Almost every franchise has a young promising player show off and then not pan out for them every few years.

But regardless of whether or not Marino struggles/flops, using Maatta as a comparable is incorrect because of the *reasons* for Maatta's drop off. It's not like they're identical defensemen, with identical areas they need to improve, so you can compare the two. One is a slow skating defender who had cancer/serious shoulder injuries after his quick start. The other is a good skating defenseman with (knock on wood) no such illnesses.

Literally the only thing the two have in common is they play for the Pens. It's a lazy analysis because in order for Marino to "fail" the same way Maatta did, it would require things that are literally impossible to predict (ie. cancer and injuries), and not based on their strengths and weaknesses as players.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Myers, Phaneuf, etc

It happens

But that's the thing though, all of those guys were (or still are in Myers case) good defensemen. Sure, I can totally see Marino not living up to what he did in his rookie year, but that's because he was downright insane in his rookie year. His analytical results last year were those of a #1 defenseman. I can easily see him not reaching that level, but even if he regresses, it's still a good price for him.

For this deal to become bad for Pittsburgh, Marino needs to crater like Zaitsev did and no longer be a top-4 D. Even if Marino regresses but into an 18 minute #4, this is still a fair deal because $4.4 million for a #4D is pretty reasonable.