Confirmed Signing with Link: [PIT] D John Marino signs extension (6 years, $4.4M AAV)

[Flukeshot]

Seems like a fair deal that could be great or could be a bit bad but unlikely to be really bad.

 

[nbwingsfan]

For the 1000th time he could literally regress and still be worth every penny of his extension. He was literally just one of the best defensive defensemen in the game last season, who also is good in transition and score 23 even strength points to top it off.

If he continues (not get better, merely continues) his current play, hes a 7+ million dollar player. Even if he turns into an Olli Maata sized pumpkin he is still worth that contract especially after inflation.

A second pairing D is worth $7+M? Interesting. Wonder why Marino signed so low if hes the best D of all time.

If you think there's no possibility that he ends up not worth this contract then I dont know what to tell you.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Since when has top pairing D been playing 20minutes, when there a guy like Letang playing in front of Marino for 25minutes?

Was Letang healthy all last season?

Nope.

Did Marino take his minutes and excel?

Yep.

ummm do you follow the NHL? A bridge deal is at a lower cap and shorter term to prove it before a larger more lucrative contract, see Dubois as a recent example. If you don’t understand a bridge deal I’m afraid this convo is over as I don’t have time to explain everything to you.

So basically, you have no clue how this works.

I’m still waiting for you to explain why Marino is taking this magical bridge deal when he can hold out until after this season and if he has another great year, he is then going to demand a long term, much more lucrative deal.

A guy is only taking a bridge deal when he has to prove to his org he deserves a bigger deal.

Marino wasn’t in that situation. Pens wanted to give him a long term deal and he wanted to sign one.

You keep failing to account for the risk on the Pens side if Marino puts together another big year.

 

[crab]

Was Letang healthy all last season?

Nope.

Did Marino take his minutes and excel?

Yep.



So basically, you have no clue how this works.

I’m still waiting for you to explain why Marino is taking this magical bridge deal when he can hold out until after this season and if he has another great year, he is then going to demand a long term, much more lucrative deal.

A guy is only taking a bridge deal when he has to prove to his org he deserves a bigger deal.

Marino wasn’t in that situation. Pens wanted to give him a long term deal and he wanted to sign one.

K well this is going nowhere since you don’t understand basic NHL contract negotiations and bridge deals. Marino hasn’t proven shit over a 56 game sample and that is why a team would typically do a bridge deal at a lower term and cap hit. The fact you don’t understand this and need this explained is mind boggling. (Mod)

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

K well this is going nowhere since you don’t understand basic NHL contract negotiations and bridge deals. Marino hasn’t proven shit over a 56 game sample and that is why a team would typically do a bridge deal at a lower term and cap hit. The fact you don’t understand this and need this explained is mind boggling. Pittsburgh education system at its finest.

It’s pretty sad you can’t comprehend Marino wasn’t going to be offered a bridge deal.

He could have signed this deal and be set for life, or played out the season and if he did just as well or better than last season, been in position to demand a much more lucrative, long term deal.

But do go on about this magical bridge deal Marino would have been forced to take.

How this is confusing to you is comical.

 

[brenden]

And he was getting a lot of good press as an oiler prospect too. But essentially the organization had Bear and Jones ahead of him and had Bouchard as a new draft pick so space was limited. I don't even know that the oilers were wrong either. Bear had a very good season last year and Jones has progressed nicely as well. Just a good draft in the later rounds by Chiarelli for defenceman.

Not to mention he wanted to play in the States and wouldn’t sign with the Oilers. It might of had more to do with the depth chart but he was going to go UFA if they didn’t get something for him.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

Pens never learn with these deals.

Omg so true! Really lamenting that Guentzel deal.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

A second pairing D is worth $7+M? Interesting. Wonder why Marino signed so low if hes the best D of all time.

If you think there's no possibility that he ends up not worth this contract then I dont know what to tell you.

1. He didnt like a second pair D he played like a first pair D.

2. Did i say “no possibility” nope i didnt. I said highly unlikely. Because there isnt a single example yet given of someone that played as well as he did as a rookie suddenly falling apart and becoming a shit defenseman overnight right in their physical prime. Not a single example.

Because thats what would have to happen for him to not earn this contract.

 

[stardog]

So he quite easily had the same if not more of an impact than Marino did his rookie season. Am I ever glad we didnt sign him based on that one ~50 game sample... THAT is my point.

Yeah, and he's earning 5.5 million dollars right now & still a very good player. So your point is really moot.

Second through fifth part of your argument that is irrelevant is that the year which your entire point is based on was his 3rd year in the league, it wasn't a 50 game sample size as he had played 120 NHL games in that time frame, AND HE WAS ALREADY ON HIS SECOND CONTRACT WITH THE WINGS. That year was the first year of a 2 year deal he'd signed.

The fifth point being that after the year which is the entire point of what I have shown to be your incredibly disingenuous argument, he actually WAS signed to a 4 year deal (by the team who you're so glad didn't sign him) worth 4.75 million per year. His very next contract after the Wings 4 year deal expired being the 5.5 million dollar one which makes your argument useless....no, not useless because it actually is an argument in favor of Marino's contract.
Because had you signed him for a few more years, you would have had a player whose worth was established at the end of the 4 years at 5.5 million based on the deal he signed with Columbus who was still on a 4.75 million dollar contract for 2 more years.

So regardless of whether you would have signed him or not, even ignoring all of the glaring flaws in your attempt at a comparison, his value went up in what would have been years 5 and 6 which would mean obviously, signing him to a 6 year deal would have been the best case.

So, again...what's your point?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I already mentioned this point, but it still blows my mind that people are still saying the Penguins screwed up by not signing Marino to a bridge deal. Let's pretend that you can get him for a similar contract as what Gavrikov got, which I don't think is super realistic but whatever. If you gave him $3 million a year for 3 years, that would take him directly to UFA. To re-sign him after that deal, you're either paying him easily over $7 million if he keeps playing like he did last year, around $5 million if he stagnates as a 2nd pair guy or you could pay him less if he falters.

The "upside" of the bridge contract is you can pay him less 3 years down the line if he stinks. The downside is that you're at risk of paying Marino more, or flat out losing him, if he doesn't suck. The people in here saying the Penguins screwed up because they didn't give him a bridge are making up a fantasy that he's somehow a huge risk of regressing, because he literally has to get worse to not be worth $4.4 million a year. What Marino did last year was easily worth $5-$6 million a year.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

The funniest part is Myers was brought up as an example of risk when his situation is exactly why you should lock up Marino.

Myers first three seasons we at all level worse than John Marinos. Yet despite this got a 7 years deal worth 5.5 almost a decade ago. Today that AAV after inflation is likely closer to 6.5.

So the Pens just locked up a guy that had a better year than Myers has ever been for what is effectively 2 million dollars less per season.

Then you have guy like Zaitsev, Risto, Matheson who all signed deal in a similar range or even higher that combined dont have a year as good as Marinos between them.

So i would love to know why signing a better player to a cheaper deal is bad?

Even guy like mentioned above arent complete boat anchors. And Marino would have to completely fall apart to drop to that level

 

[nbwingsfan]

1. He didnt like a second pair D he played like a first pair D.

2. Did i say “no possibility” nope i didnt. I said highly unlikely. Because there isnt a single example yet given of someone that played as well as he did as a rookie suddenly falling apart and becoming a shit defenseman overnight right in their physical prime. Not a single example.

Because thats what would have to happen for him to not earn this contract.

I mean Myers won a calder and that was his best season...

Also Marino was third in ice time... How is that top pairing?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I mean Myers won a calder and that was his best season...

Also Marino was third in ice time... How is that top pairing?

If the extent of your evaluation on player talent is looking at ice time, you really shouldn't even be bothering to argue with people in here. You're just showing yourself to be a waste of time to discuss with.

 

[nbwingsfan]

If the extent of your evaluation on player talent is looking at ice time, you really shouldn't even be bothering to argue with people in here. You're just showing yourself to be a waste of time to discuss with.

Nope, just waiting to see how exactly he was a top pairing D when he wasnt on the top pair...

 

[stardog]

1) Malkin is already showing signs of regression. 4 points in his last 8 playoff games (some of those against the Canadiens) and being a minus player. Crosby will probably age well if his recent injury isn’t too bad but Malkin and Letang will deteriorate quickly as they rely on their physical skill sets.

2) The Canadiens were a lottery team that had no business in the playoffs. Totally different situation compared to the Lightning. The Lightning also didn’t have an aging core.

3) That won’t take them very far with an aging Malkin, Crosby and Letang. Listing Pettersson as one of the few impact young players really makes my case, he regressed last year after his first season with the Penguins and looked like a third pair defenseman.

Way to start off with your number 1 point as completely pointless while killing all of your credibility.

Just, a ridiculous and in no way remotely close to a truthful statement... unless you're basing your proof on the only evidence you've brought to back up that statement with the all encompassing +/- statistic. Because Malkin's value clearly, has always been based on whether he was plus, or minus for the year. Thank God for him that he was a plus player in his draft year or his amazing skill would have been viewed as worthless to the scouts and he might have fallen out of the first round...or even the draft altogether depending on how far down that tell tale minus fell.

Here's a stat. Over the past 3 seasons guess where he falls, out of all of the players in the NHL in points per 60?

Fourth. Ahead of Pastrnak, Draisaitl, Stamkos, McKinnon, even his teammate Sidney Crosby.

Same timeframe he is 6th in points per game.

The exact same position he finished this past season in points per game.

Even strength he's been even better, as he finished 3rd in the league in ES points per 60 this last season, well ahead of league scoring leader Draisitl and his buddy McDavid.

I mean I can go through the list and show you several more of these numbers where the regressing Geno isn't doing any regressing at all and finishing top 3-8 in statistical categories that actually tell you something, but there's no point because your number 1 point is just absolutely false. Unless, for the many hockey pundits such as yourself who count +/- as the most accurate and important measure to judge an offensive players contributions, and/or handpick 8 games over a 3 year period as valid evidence of regression?

I could mention that the entire Penguins team has been 1-9 in their last 10 playoff games and nobody has played well but you go on ahead with your +/- and 8 game cherry picked sample size that ignores the other roughly 95% of his games to prove your case.

Well done.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also have a superbly tough time using the Myers contract as an example of a "bad long term deal" when Myers has been consistently a top-4 defenseman through his entire career. Maybe Myers didn't hit the upside that many thought he had after his rookie year (similar to Phaneuf in that regard), but his numbers since his ELC ended are far from bad. A guy that puts up 30 points with ~100 block shots and hits per 82 games and plays 22 minutes a night with mostly fine analytics (a little below -1% CF%Rel, which isn't good but isn't terrible) in all situations is not a bad player at all.

If Marino has the same sort of regression that Phaneuf and Myers had following their rookie years, he's still easily worth $4.4 million a year.

 

[BHD]

According to some, Marino's play was worth 5.4. So, let's say he does reach another level this season. He's definitely expecting more than 4.4 if he does that.

 

[stardog]

K well this is going nowhere since you don’t understand basic NHL contract negotiations and bridge deals. Marino hasn’t proven shit over a 56 game sample and that is why a team would typically do a bridge deal at a lower term and cap hit. The fact you don’t understand this and need this explained is mind boggling. (Mod)

Who doesn't understand how contracts work?
I would say that it's the guy who just typed that "Marino hasn't proved shit over a 56 game sample size" as his point while the 6 year contract that he just signed and a top 10 finish in the Calder voting says otherwise. I am pretty certain that he provided definitive proof over that 56 game sample size to the actual people who matter and the contract that he signed say so loudly and most definitely for those people, that he has.

Unfortunately for your argument, your opinion on the matter means nothing (or as you so eloquently put it, doesn't prove...well, you get the idea). While several people with actual NHL jobs and NHL credibility don't offer opinions as proof, but something very substantial as proof.

Just a poor argument to say someone hasn't proven sh** in a sample size of games when that very same sample size, AND ONLY THAT VERY SAME SAMPLE SIZE is the very same and only proof which got him a 6 year, 4+ million dollar contract.

What a silly point of view.
Post in a thread about a players new contract that 'He hasn't proven anything' if you ignore the entire contract thingy that he just signed and the very reason for the thread, as proof of course.

I wouldn't be so cavalier as to say that others don't understand how contracts work when you are dismissing the ONLY sample size which was available at the time a contract was signed. That only proves that someone doesn't even understand what the definition of a contract is, let alone how one is supposed to work.

I am having a difficult time in figuring out whether a frame of mind with that point of view and who's thinking such is actually a logical, valid or even a mediocre argument would make for a worse GM, or a players agent.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I mean Myers won a calder and that was his best season...

Also Marino was third in ice time... How is that top pairing?

1. Who gives a shit if he won the Calder. He scored at the same even strength pace that season as Marino did last year and Marino was literally elite defensively last season.

2. I said played at the level of a top paring defenseman. Cant you not tell the difference?

If your describing their role he was a second pairing defenseman but if your using first pair/second pair etc to describe the value of their play he falls into first pair.

For example John Tavares, Evgeni Malkin and Patrick Kane have been on their teams second line. But if were using 1st line - 4th line to compare skill or value levels or calibers they are all 1st liners. The leafs have two 1st line centers as do the penguins. Some teams have 2 starting caliber goalies even though one is a backup etc.

 

[BlueOil]

the contract will either be solid or he's the new black sheep, fun spot for marino

 

[Habs 4 Life]

I watched quite a few Penguins games last seasons and the kid really impressed me. Great deal for the Pens IMO

 

[nbwingsfan]

1. Who gives a shit if he won the Calder. He scored at the same even strength pace that season as Marino did last year and Marino was literally elite defensively last season.

2. I said played at the level of a top paring defenseman. Cant you not tell the difference?

If your describing their role he was a second pairing defenseman but if your using first pair/second pair etc to describe the value of their play he falls into first pair.

For example John Tavares, Evgeni Malkin and Patrick Kane have been on their teams second line. But if were using 1st line - 4th line to compare skill or value levels or calibers they are all 1st liners. The leafs have two 1st line centers as do the penguins. Some teams have 2 starting caliber goalies even though one is a backup etc.

Their ice time does not reflect those players being 2nd line players.

Marino's does.

 

[stardog]

I mean Myers won a calder and that was his best season...

Also Marino was third in ice time... How is that top pairing?

I guess when the 50 other arguments you've made get definitively proven wrong, rather than address those points you'd rather continue bringing up more irrelevant and equally flimsy points than care to possibly learn something. Changing the argument when your point is proven false while digging a deeper hole each time.

The only thing that you're proving isn't anything regarding the contract, but that your pride is more important than knowledge or education.

Which is too bad as that makes for a pointless discussion.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Their ice time does not reflect those players being 2nd line players.

Marino's does.

You were given an incredibly easy out if you would have just said "I was mistaken, I thought you said he was in a 1st pair D role last year". But instead you decided to dig even deeper, bravo.

 

[crab]

Who doesn't understand how contracts work?
I would say that it's the guy who just typed that "Marino hasn't proved shit over a 56 game sample size" as his point while the 6 year contract that he just signed and a top 10 finish in the Calder voting says otherwise. I am pretty certain that he provided definitive proof over that 56 game sample size to the actual people who matter and the contract that he signed say so loudly and most definitely for those people, that he has.

Unfortunately for your argument, your opinion on the matter means nothing (or as you so eloquently put it, doesn't prove...well, you get the idea). While several people with actual NHL jobs and NHL credibility don't offer opinions as proof, but something very substantial as proof.

Just a poor argument to say someone hasn't proven sh** in a sample size of games when that very same sample size, AND ONLY THAT VERY SAME SAMPLE SIZE is the very same and only proof which got him a 6 year, 4+ million dollar contract.

What a silly point of view.
Post in a thread about a players new contract that 'He hasn't proven anything' if you ignore the entire contract thingy that he just signed and the very reason for the thread, as proof of course.

I wouldn't be so cavalier as to say that others don't understand how contracts work when you are dismissing the ONLY sample size which was available at the time a contract was signed. That only proves that someone doesn't even understand what the definition of a contract is, let alone how one is supposed to work.

I am having a difficult time in figuring out whether a frame of mind with that point of view and who's thinking such is actually a logical, valid or even a mediocre argument would make for a worse GM, or a players agent.

The contract only proves one team thought he had that value, the same team that signed Jack Johnson recently and said they knew something that the rest of the league didn’t.

To the rest of your post hahahahahhahahah you mad.