Confirmed with Link: Pierre Engvall signs 2 year extension (AAV: 1.25M)

JT AM da real deal

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I’m talking throwing a hit. You know the reason management didn’t take Gauthier back. Physical play I’m talking has nothing to do with illegal headshots or laying the lumber on. A hard team to play is one that pounds you within the rules. Thats all i want. I don’t want puff pastries playing for us. Its gotten us 4 straight first round exits
We are not likely to get that with Dubie ... he may be changing slightly but at his core he is an analytics guy ... I can only hope he moves us closer to Tampa's model with LARGE defenders (even skilled ones are BIG and FAST) ... and a line of forwards who will finish you off ... with an elite ATHLETIC large goaler who can make BIG saves in clutch when needed

Bottom line BIG guys who can skate and play a 200 ft game of finishing you off are still out there but much harder to find ... we missed 2 on NB with Barks and Paul ... they needed some time to develop but you could tell they were going to make it back then ... those are kinda picks you need to make in mid rounds and then develop them over 3-5 years ... you can't go entirely with skill guys in draft ... hockey is all about balance now and we aren't drafting those type of guys ... the idea you can trade for and get these guys easy is full of you know what ... no one is giving them up unless you are getting taken to da cleaners or because of CAP ... Simmonds and Jumbo Joe are old and past prime ... they may be able to muster up a couple shifts a game but that will be it ...
 
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Wafflewhipper

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We are not likely to get that with Dubie ... he may be changing slightly but at his core he is an analytics guy ... I can only hope he moves us closer to Tampa's model with LARGE defenders (even skilled ones are BIG and FAST) ... and a line of forwards who will finish you off ... with an elite ATHLETIC large goaler who can make BIG saves in clutch when needed

Bottom line BIG guys who can skate and play a 200 ft game of finishing you off are still out there but much harder to find ... we missed 2 on NB with Barks and Paul ... they needed some time to develop but you could tell they were going to make it back then ... those are kinda picks you need to make in mid rounds and then develop them over 3-5 years ... you can't go entirely with skill guys in draft ... hockey is all about balance now and we aren't drafting those type of guys ... the idea you can trade for and get these guys easy is full of you know what ... no one is giving them up unless you are getting taken to da cleaners or because of CAP ... Simmonds and Jumbo Joe are old and past prime ... they may be able to muster up a couple shifts a game but that will be it ...
Yeah no matter what he does we have 4 skill guys at forward that are pretty much not physical players. That is perfectly acceptable to me. I would be crazy not to like them four, they are top talents league wide.
The character guys that were added bring the glue that will bind this all together now. Spezza being hired by the Leafs when he ever retires wouldn’t surprise me the way they appreciate him.
As long as Simmonds/ Thornton enjoy the team they could be around on another 1 year deal for each to be the leadership help for muzzy etc.
Couldn’t agree more on drafting some big physical guys with layer or mid round picks champ
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Yeah no matter what he does we have 4 skill guys at forward that are pretty much not physical players. That is perfectly acceptable to me. I would be crazy not to like them four, they are top talents league wide.
The character guys that were added bring the glue that will bind this all together now. Spezza being hired by the Leafs when he ever retires wouldn’t surprise me the way they appreciate him.
As long as Simmonds/ Thornton enjoy the team they could be around on another 1 year deal for each to be the leadership help for muzzy etc.
Couldn’t agree more on drafting some big physical guys with layer or mid round picks champ
Even Barks and Paul have some skill ... you can do both but again you have to have da mindset to go look for those guys and then da patience to develop them for a few years without worrying they are not putting up offensive numbers in minors ... it takes understanding those kids ... understanding their story and how they progressed ... you have to understand their families and figure out how they are motivated to continue to improve ... some guys are tapped out by junior and they are huge kids but they are done improving .. it is not a spreadsheet kinda of analysis ... i think we are not deep enough with hockey people at grass roots to really get into this properly ... there are fewer and fewer of these kinda kids every year and it will only get harder to get them here ... not saying we don't take a flyer on da Russian kid in round 1 but for gods sake 2020 was loaded with TO kids who WILL be those kids in 3-5 years and we GOT ZERO of them ... now 2021 is brutal in Ontario and 2022 is just ok ... so we could go another 2 years in a deficit here
 

Randy Randerson

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We are not likely to get that with Dubie ... he may be changing slightly but at his core he is an analytics guy ... I can only hope he moves us closer to Tampa's model with LARGE defenders (even skilled ones are BIG and FAST) ... and a line of forwards who will finish you off ... with an elite ATHLETIC large goaler who can make BIG saves in clutch when needed

Bottom line BIG guys who can skate and play a 200 ft game of finishing you off are still out there but much harder to find ... we missed 2 on NB with Barks and Paul ... they needed some time to develop but you could tell they were going to make it back then ... those are kinda picks you need to make in mid rounds and then develop them over 3-5 years ... you can't go entirely with skill guys in draft ... hockey is all about balance now and we aren't drafting those type of guys ... the idea you can trade for and get these guys easy is full of you know what ... no one is giving them up unless you are getting taken to da cleaners or because of CAP ... Simmonds and Jumbo Joe are old and past prime ... they may be able to muster up a couple shifts a game but that will be it ...
I would argue that Tampa's large d corps is more a result of circumstance than design, and drops in average size significantly when you remove Hedman who they didn't have a choice in taking - that was a 2 horse draft that they had the 2nd pick in. When going after the Sergachev/McDonagh's, they were looking for a premium prospect and a top pairing dman, I don't think size factored into those evaluations at all (Sergachev was much smaller then as well, Holl sized). Then Cernak happened to be a guy that turned out, and the rest aren't that big unless you're counting Coburn who's sort of a non-factor anymore including this past season when they won. I would agree that you don't want a team full of Sandin size dmen but we really aren't in that position, even our shorter dmen (Rielly, Dermott, Liljegren) are dense and don't really struggle in contact, and everyone can skate.

I agree on the goalie front, but that again is really a matter of circumstance unless you're going to have picks high enough to land the Askarov's. Goalies are voodoo so spend frequent picks here and pray to Jobu. Having a system-developed early 20's franchise goaltender is a massive building block, but you need some luck to get one.

If the Leafs scouting believes that the BPA at any position is a small guy, they should always take him. It's easy to build the team you want when you have excess quality young assets to trade. They've been doing a really, really good job in later round drafting for close to a decade now (Brown, Johnsson, Engvall, Leivo, etc, hitting on a well above average rate finding NHL talent in places that have low odds to do so).

I think that drafts like our 2016 one are what happen when you fixate on size (Greenway, Middleton, Mattinen)
 

JT AM da real deal

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I would argue that Tampa's large d corps is more a result of circumstance than design, and drops in average size significantly when you remove Hedman who they didn't have a choice in taking - that was a 2 horse draft that they had the 2nd pick in. When going after the Sergachev/McDonagh's, they were looking for a premium prospect and a top pairing dman, I don't think size factored into those evaluations at all (Sergachev was much smaller then as well, Holl sized). Then Cernak happened to be a guy that turned out, and the rest aren't that big unless you're counting Coburn who's sort of a non-factor anymore including this past season when they won. I would agree that you don't want a team full of Sandin size dmen but we really aren't in that position, even our shorter dmen (Rielly, Dermott, Liljegren) are dense and don't really struggle in contact, and everyone can skate.

I agree on the goalie front, but that again is really a matter of circumstance unless you're going to have picks high enough to land the Askarov's. Goalies are voodoo so spend frequent picks here and pray to Jobu. Having a system-developed early 20's franchise goaltender is a massive building block, but you need some luck to get one.

If the Leafs scouting believes that the BPA at any position is a small guy, they should always take him. It's easy to build the team you want when you have excess quality young assets to trade. They've been doing a really, really good job in later round drafting for close to a decade now (Brown, Johnsson, Engvall, Leivo, etc, hitting on a well above average rate finding NHL talent in places that have low odds to do so).

I think that drafts like our 2016 one are what happen when you fixate on size (Greenway, Middleton, Mattinen)
Hedman 6"6
Coburn 6"5
Cernak 6"3.5
Serge 6"2.5
Schenn 6"2
McD 6"1.5
This is their starting 6 for 2021
As a d man I can tell you height weight and power all matter
Simple issue of leverage over smaller guys
In tight spaces like defending SIZE matters
Attackers don't like it as it is much harder to take da net

Like it or not no one is afraid of Rielly Brodie Holl or Dermy
But no one will like dealing with Muzzy or Bogo in smaller spaces
 

A1LeafNation

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Hedman 6"6
Coburn 6"5
Cernak 6"3.5
Serge 6"2.5
Schenn 6"2
McD 6"1.5
This is their starting 6 for 2021
As a d man I can tell you height weight and power all matter
Simple issue of leverage over smaller guys
In tight spaces like defending SIZE matters
Attackers don't like it as it is much harder to take da net

Like it or not no one is afraid of Rielly Brodie Holl or Dermy
But no one will like dealing with Muzzy or Bogo in smaller spaces

They are all not small...lol

Holl is 6'4
Bogo and Muzzin are 6'3
Rielly and Brodie are 6'1
Dermott is 6'0
 

Randy Randerson

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Hedman 6"6
Coburn 6"5
Cernak 6"3.5
Serge 6"2.5
Schenn 6"2
McD 6"1.5
This is their starting 6 for 2021
As a d man I can tell you height weight and power all matter
Simple issue of leverage over smaller guys
In tight spaces like defending SIZE matters
Attackers don't like it as it is much harder to take da net

Like it or not no one is afraid of Rielly Brodie Holl or Dermy
But no one will like dealing with Muzzy or Bogo in smaller spaces
You dont know if that starting 6 will be effective, sub shattenkirk in for schenn to get the group that was

You're attributing success to height, without considering how much talent they have...Hedman isn't a perennial Norris candidate because he's tall, it's because he's extremely talented

Btw, I also played D at 5'10" and would consistently bull guys around that were 4"+ taller than me, mass means more than height in the trenches
 

seanlinden

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A lot here have argued that the biggest problem with player contracts is that you are paying for past performance instead of what you project the player to do through the duration of the contract. I think his contract properly reflects who he can be for this team with a 3rd/4th line role with a potential to hit 12-15 goals and 30-40 points.

For those of you who have focused on his lack of physicality, he hasn't been that bad relative to the rest of the team. Also I don't know if some of these are novelty accounts, but the argument that Euros are the reason why the team is so soft to play against is completely false. Remember your American almost-captain was up for a Lady Byng (I'm fine with this, but this is based on your logic). Filtering on players that have played more than 15 games and averaged more than 10 min/game:

View attachment 374746

I think that speaks more towards the somewhat sad state of affairs with respect to how phyiscal the Leafs play on any given night.

1 forward (who was traded) above 5 hits per 60 minutes.

Compare that to Tampa...

Barclay Goodrow was at 13.29 hits per 60, in 12:25 of ice time over the 8 regular season games he played.

Cedric Paquette,13.18 hits per 60, 13:03 TOI, 61 gp.

Blake Coleman, 11.33 hits per 60, 14:42 TOI, 9 gp.

Pat Maroon 7.85 hits per 60, 12:25 TOI, 64 gp.

Ondrej Palat 7.78 hits per 60, 16:11 TOI, 64 gp

Mattheu Joseph (6.61, 11:31, 37), Mitchell Stephens (5.27, 10:47, 38) also met these criteria, while of course playing a smaller role that became diminished when they got Coleman & Goodrow.

Much was made of how important the additions of Goodrow and Coleman were to Tampa winning a cup; but it's important to remember that they had evolved into a reasonably physical team well before Coleman & Goodrow got there.

On any given night, the lightning had 4-5 forwards in their lineup who were playing a regular shif, and averaging well over 5 hits per 60 minutes. Toronto had 1; and he was traded for a guy who played less.

For the Leafs to be successful, they're a team who needs to rely on a relentless attack. They certainly have the skill to do that, especially when you have the likes of Thornton, Spezza, Kerfoot, Vesey, Simmonds & Robertson all likely to be bottom 6 players. However, a successful relentless attack requires a combination of skill and forechecking.
 

Antropovsky

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Guys like Engvall and Gauthier add a physical dimension to their games and they could have careers like Brian Boyle or a Paul Gaustad.... a little physical game is the difference between a career in mostly minors to a NHL career.
 

bpower

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A lot here have argued that the biggest problem with player contracts is that you are paying for past performance instead of what you project the player to do through the duration of the contract. I think his contract properly reflects who he can be for this team with a 3rd/4th line role with a potential to hit 12-15 goals and 30-40 points.

For those of you who have focused on his lack of physicality, he hasn't been that bad relative to the rest of the team. Also I don't know if some of these are novelty accounts, but the argument that Euros are the reason why the team is so soft to play against is completely false. Remember your American almost-captain was up for a Lady Byng (I'm fine with this, but this is based on your logic). Filtering on players that have played more than 15 games and averaged more than 10 min/game:

View attachment 374746

Looks like a sure fire way to get traded is start hitting more :laugh:

Top 3 all gone. Hyman buddy... cool it!
 
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JT AM da real deal

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They are all not small...lol

Holl is 6'4
Bogo and Muzzin are 6'3
Rielly and Brodie are 6'1
Dermott is 6'0
It is a combo of size, speed and physical play ... Holl can take a big hit but does not give them out so nobody is scared of him ... Rielly is not 6"1 that is biggest joke of list and although he has a big boned body he never learned how to use it as a kid he is touch over 6'... Dermy is 5'11 barely and I mean barely unless he grew an inch over past year ... Bogo and Muzzy are big men and play big ... people around league fear going heads up with them
 

JT AM da real deal

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You dont know if that starting 6 will be effective, sub shattenkirk in for schenn to get the group that was

You're attributing success to height, without considering how much talent they have...Hedman isn't a perennial Norris candidate because he's tall, it's because he's extremely talented

Btw, I also played D at 5'10" and would consistently bull guys around that were 4"+ taller than me, mass means more than height in the trenches
I concur it is not all about size but I can tell you as a 6ft5 defender myself my reach and power with good positioning you can force attackers into prone positions and then lay da lumber virtually control them at will on boards. Just leverage alone da little guys can't get through. And then strength on stick they can't get puck back. If I have trouble with 2 guys then I eat da puck.

But today's game da strategy is to match a beast with a puck mover. It works great. Centre comes in to help with puck and moves to puck moving D and break out is on. This way teams can't cycle us to death. Then they can't then load da net for screens and tips.

We were far to easy to game plan. I can only hope that brodie can handle da forecheck and does not give up freebies.
 

SeaOfBlue

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I think that speaks more towards the somewhat sad state of affairs with respect to how phyiscal the Leafs play on any given night.

1 forward (who was traded) above 5 hits per 60 minutes.

Compare that to Tampa...

Barclay Goodrow was at 13.29 hits per 60, in 12:25 of ice time over the 8 regular season games he played.

Cedric Paquette,13.18 hits per 60, 13:03 TOI, 61 gp.

Blake Coleman, 11.33 hits per 60, 14:42 TOI, 9 gp.

Pat Maroon 7.85 hits per 60, 12:25 TOI, 64 gp.

Ondrej Palat 7.78 hits per 60, 16:11 TOI, 64 gp

Mattheu Joseph (6.61, 11:31, 37), Mitchell Stephens (5.27, 10:47, 38) also met these criteria, while of course playing a smaller role that became diminished when they got Coleman & Goodrow.

Much was made of how important the additions of Goodrow and Coleman were to Tampa winning a cup; but it's important to remember that they had evolved into a reasonably physical team well before Coleman & Goodrow got there.

On any given night, the lightning had 4-5 forwards in their lineup who were playing a regular shif, and averaging well over 5 hits per 60 minutes. Toronto had 1; and he was traded for a guy who played less.

For the Leafs to be successful, they're a team who needs to rely on a relentless attack. They certainly have the skill to do that, especially when you have the likes of Thornton, Spezza, Kerfoot, Vesey, Simmonds & Robertson all likely to be bottom 6 players. However, a successful relentless attack requires a combination of skill and forechecking.

Tampa had Paquette and Palat for years before people were saying they were a "physical" team. Also, hitting is not the only indicator of physicality. Gauthier has a 7.86 hits/60, which is higher than Maroon and Palat. I personally don't think Gauthier is as soft as people make him out to be, but he is definitely not a guy who runs around throwing hits like people think Maroon does.

Tampa dropped Adam Erne (15.05 hits/60 in 10:33 TOI), Ryan Callahan (10.27 hits/60 in 11:08 TOI, and that was lower than his normal), and JT Miller (7.62 hits/60 in 14:40 TOI) to make room for Maroon, Goodrow, and Coleman. So in terms of the hitting metric, they hardly even improved.

The main difference is Goodrow and Coleman are much more skilled players than Erne and Callahan (at that stage of his career anyways). They all can play a strong defensive game and PK, while Erne and Callahan were pretty much just big bodies who could occasionally score and hit... Which does not make them very useful. Maroon is also like that, but is also a more skilled player so he is more effective in the bottom 6 role they were giving him.

You also don't need to hit to be a good forechecker. Hyman is one of the better forecheckers I have seen in the recent NHL and he has 3.8 hits/60. Engvall and Mikheyev are also good forecheckers and they have hardly thrown many hits in the NHL to this point. It's about using your body and your head to know where to be and how to attack, which all three do extremely well. They are also very effective at using their stick and their feet on the forecheck, which is just as, if not more, important for an effective forechecker.

The smart thing was replacing Clifford with a guy who is hopefully more skilled in Simmonds. Same with adding Vesey. Big bodies who are extremely effective in the tight areas of the ice but also have the skill to be useful players in a variety of ways all over the ice.
 
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SeaOfBlue

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I concur it is not all about size but I can tell you as a 6ft5 defender myself my reach and power with good positioning you can force attackers into prone positions and then lay da lumber virtually control them at will on boards. Just leverage alone da little guys can't get through. And then strength on stick they can't get puck back. If I have trouble with 2 guys then I eat da puck.

But today's game da strategy is to match a beast with a puck mover. It works great. Centre comes in to help with puck and moves to puck moving D and break out is on. This way teams can't cycle us to death. Then they can't then load da net for screens and tips.

We were far to easy to game plan. I can only hope that brodie can handle da forecheck and does not give up freebies.

Babcock was quite predictable. Keefe would switch things up quite a bit, sometimes maybe even a bit too much.

I feel like our defense was better last year when it came to crippling mistakes. A lot more of the defensive errors that I saw came from forwards messing up and forcing one our defenders to be out of position. Of course we did still have some blunders from everyone, especially guys like Barrie, but nothing nearly as bad as I saw when we had guys like Gardiner on the team. Still need to work on it, but so does literally every team in the NHL.
 

A1LeafNation

Obsession beats talent everytime!!
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It is a combo of size, speed and physical play ... Holl can take a big hit but does not give them out so nobody is scared of him ... Rielly is not 6"1 that is biggest joke of list and although he has a big boned body he never learned how to use it as a kid he is touch over 6'... Dermy is 5'11 barely and I mean barely unless he grew an inch over past year ... Bogo and Muzzy are big men and play big ... people around league fear going heads up with them
Aren't they all over 200lbs. They can take a hit and rub ppl out. They are also smart players.

Not too much to complain about here.
 
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Randy Randerson

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I concur it is not all about size but I can tell you as a 6ft5 defender myself my reach and power with good positioning you can force attackers into prone positions and then lay da lumber virtually control them at will on boards. Just leverage alone da little guys can't get through. And then strength on stick they can't get puck back. If I have trouble with 2 guys then I eat da puck.

But today's game da strategy is to match a beast with a puck mover. It works great. Centre comes in to help with puck and moves to puck moving D and break out is on. This way teams can't cycle us to death. Then they can't then load da net for screens and tips.

We were far to easy to game plan. I can only hope that brodie can handle da forecheck and does not give up freebies.
as a 6ft5 guy, you don't win the leverage game with a shorter guy of comparable strength, the stout guy does....he can get under your center of gravity and push you up. That's why Aaron Donald is the best defensive tackle in the NFL despite being 3-4 inches shorter than average for the position.

There's advantages to being big, there's advantages to not being big. There's lots of advantages to being good, there's none to being not good - moral of the story is be good, and it finally looks like the Leafs D is, so stop wishing it away until it shows that it doesn't work.

btw, in the last 20 years, there has been 3 Norris trophy winners who are larger than our smallest dman (depending on whether Lehtonen starts, and even then it's a semantic difference) so this theory of "bigger = better" doesn't bear out in the NHL.
 
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JT AM da real deal

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as a 6ft5 guy, you don't win the leverage game with a shorter guy of comparable strength, the stout guy does....he can get under your center of gravity and push you up. That's why Aaron Donald is the best defensive tackle in the NFL despite being 3-4 inches shorter than average for the position.

There's advantages to being big, there's advantages to not being big. There's lots of advantages to being good, there's none to being not good - moral of the story is be good, and it finally looks like the Leafs D is, so stop wishing it away until it shows that it doesn't work.

btw, in the last 20 years, there has been 3 Norris trophy winners who are larger than our smallest dman (depending on whether Lehtonen starts, and even then it's a semantic difference) so this theory of "bigger = better" doesn't bear out in the NHL.
Look at Tampa's d core in Cup winning year, look at Blue's d core in Cup winning year ... big bad fast and nasty ... it still wins today
 

JT AM da real deal

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Aren't they all over 200lbs. They can take a hit and rub ppl out. They are also smart players.

Not too much to complain about here.
I think it all rests on Brodie ... he will be da difference maker or he will create another problem ... not gonna make a bet on it this year ... hard to tell playing with GIO
 

Leafslet

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We are not likely to get that with Dubie ... he may be changing slightly but at his core he is an analytics guy ... I can only hope he moves us closer to Tampa's model with LARGE defenders (even skilled ones are BIG and FAST) ... and a line of forwards who will finish you off ... with an elite ATHLETIC large goaler who can make BIG saves in clutch when needed

Bottom line BIG guys who can skate and play a 200 ft game of finishing you off are still out there but much harder to find ... we missed 2 on NB with Barks and Paul ... they needed some time to develop but you could tell they were going to make it back then ... those are kinda picks you need to make in mid rounds and then develop them over 3-5 years ... you can't go entirely with skill guys in draft ... hockey is all about balance now and we aren't drafting those type of guys ... the idea you can trade for and get these guys easy is full of you know what ... no one is giving them up unless you are getting taken to da cleaners or because of CAP ... Simmonds and Jumbo Joe are old and past prime ... they may be able to muster up a couple shifts a game but that will be it ...

maybe if you capitalized a few more BIG words, you might get your point across.
 

The Iceman

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as a 6ft5 guy, you don't win the leverage game with a shorter guy of comparable strength, the stout guy does....he can get under your center of gravity and push you up. That's why Aaron Donald is the best defensive tackle in the NFL despite being 3-4 inches shorter than average for the position.

There's advantages to being big, there's advantages to not being big. There's lots of advantages to being good, there's none to being not good - moral of the story is be good, and it finally looks like the Leafs D is, so stop wishing it away until it shows that it doesn't work.

btw, in the last 20 years, there has been 3 Norris trophy winners who are larger than our smallest dman (depending on whether Lehtonen starts, and even then it's a semantic difference) so this theory of "bigger = better" doesn't bear out in the NHL.

So taking Dermott @ 6 foot
I got Josi, Lidstrom, Giordano, Burns, Hedman, Keith, Doughty, Pronger all bigger.
PK, Nic Lidstrom, Niedermayer tied.

None shorter than 6 feet.
Lehtonen will be the 1st under 6 foot Norris winner in many years :)
 

Randy Randerson

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So taking Dermott @ 6 foot
I got Josi, Lidstrom, Giordano, Burns, Hedman, Keith, Doughty, Pronger all bigger.
PK, Nic Lidstrom, Niedermayer tied.

None shorter than 6 feet.
Lehtonen will be the 1st under 6 foot Norris winner in many years :)
I miscounted Pronger as being 21 years ago, should have used "cap era" anyway because it's more relevant with all the rule changes.

Josi, Lidstrom, Keith, Doughty, Neidermayer are all lighter than Dermott (I said "larger" not "taller" so an inch shorter but 5lbs-ish heavier I'll call an equivalent, it's an incredibly semantic difference in terms of its effect on the ice if you want to split this hair). You'd also see that these guys at Dermott's age would have listed as an inch shorter, I don't know why the NHL does that but list sizes tend to grow well beyond when guys actually stop growing.

the ties are obviously not larger so not sure why you bring this up

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here as well - the point is that our dmen are literally all big enough to win a Norris (depending on whether Lehtonen starts, as previously acknowledged), so that's not the factor that will stop them from being a cup winning defense

My fingers are crossed that you're right on Lehtonen.
 
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Randy Randerson

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Look at Tampa's d core in Cup winning year, look at Blue's d core in Cup winning year ... big bad fast and nasty ... it still wins today
Tampa had to make their D corps smaller to win, the guys you're referencing were there in the year they underperformed and got bounced in the first round, they won when they added little Kevin Shattenkirk. They were also an elite offense built around...undersized players

more recent cup winners than not have had normal size defences.

so again, big>good is a fallacy that you should stop believing in
 
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JT AM da real deal

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Tampa had to make their D corps smaller to win, the guys you're referencing were there in the year they underperformed and got bounced in the first round, they won when they added little Kevin Shattenkirk. They were also an elite offense built around...undersized players

more recent cup winners than not have had normal size defences.

so again, big>good is a fallacy that you should stop believing in
Exact reason why our defense has sucked for 60+ years ... Horton ruled NHL with an iron fist and if you got hit by it you were done ... like lights out done ... until we fix our defense and its philosophy we ain't winning diddly ... da more things change da more they stay da same
 

Randy Randerson

Registered User
Jul 28, 2016
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Hamilton
Exact reason why our defense has sucked for 60+ years ... Horton ruled NHL with an iron fist and if you got hit by it you were done ... like lights out done ... until we fix our defense and its philosophy we ain't winning diddly ... da more things change da more they stay da same
haha, our defense sucking is the reason that our defense sucked, they were big in lots of those years. Let's re-convene on this in 5 years, if the cup winner has the biggest defense in the league each of those years then I'll concede, fair?
 
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