Pierre Dorion's trade tracker

[Agent Zub]

We want a pile of riches when we trade away good players, but don't expect to give a pile of riches to get good players.

Classic HF.

are you not seeing the difference between the two lists?

 

[Benjamin]

Just what we paid for the Duchene, I loved the trade then, and still love it now. It doesn't mean that I don't recognize that next year's pick could be a good one for the Avs, but we got the player the Avs hope their assets can be as good as, and as long as we extend him he's worth the assets in my mind.

I'm ok with Zibs return (obvious cash/pick stuff aside), and the sweet run makes the Burrows trade palatable for me despite his drop off this year (I know people think we could have done it anyways, but I'm definitely a bird in hand kind of guy with my sports) And I was a fan of Burrows in Van seeing as how it's technically my home team.

I'm not happy with the return on Havlat, Spezza, Heatley, or Hoffman, but each of these players screwed us. We must have the worst luck with good players tanking their value for us before leaving, and that's spanning over three GM's!

I see. With the added depth to what you mean, I agree. We got what we wanted and have to trade something away for it to happen.

The individual trades aren't so bad. Grouped together they are terrible.

 

[Shruggs Peterson]

Just what we paid for the Duchene, I loved the trade then, and still love it now. It doesn't mean that I don't recognize that next year's pick could be a good one for the Avs, but we got the player the Avs hope their assets can be as good as, and as long as we extend him he's worth the assets in my mind.

I'm ok with Zibs return (obvious cash/pick stuff aside), and the sweet run makes the Burrows trade palatable for me despite his drop off this year (I know people think we could have done it anyways, but I'm definitely a bird in hand kind of guy with my sports) And I was a fan of Burrows in Van seeing as how it's technically my home team.

I'm not happy with the return on Havlat, Spezza, Heatley, or Hoffman, but each of these players screwed us. We must have the worst luck with good players tanking their value for us before leaving, and that's spanning over three GM's!

I'm sure part of it is just poor circumstance (Heatley was a bum) but there is a common theme with all of those players even with the different GM's....it's the guy at the top of organization.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I see. With the added depth to what you mean, I agree. We got what we wanted and have to trade something away for it to happen.

The individual trades aren't so bad. Grouped together they are terrible.

Man, if we had received fair value for Havlat, Spezza, Heater, and Hoffman, those assets would likely still be paying forward to this day.

Just Brutal, do other teams have to trade from such a disadvantage so often?

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm sure part of it is just poor circumstance (Heatley was a bum) but there is a common theme with all of those players even with the different GM's....it's the guy at the top of organization.

Well I won't argue with you there

 

[Ice-Tray]

are you not seeing the difference between the two lists?

Context is important obviously.

 

[Micklebot]

Dorion had a bunch of trades that you could potentially justify based on team needs, budget constraints, and what not, but it seems many end up going south.

- Condon for a 5th, ok, great deal, probably saved the season, then we re-sign him and he's terrible and overpaid.
- Dahlen for Burrows, ugh, don't like losing a quality prospect for an aging vet, oh wait, we had to re-sign him for two years too, jeez that's tough, but we need the depth, and hey look, we had a great playoff run with him in the lineup for most of it, oh wait, he's terrible now. Crap.
- Zibanejad and 2nd for Brass, ok, so a playoff performer, left hand center that was great on NYR PP, could be that creative guy we need and balances out the RHC and LHC in the top 6 with Turris, he was producing more than Zib in NY, hate that we paid a 2nd for them to eat Brass' bonus, and oh crap, he wildly under-produced and while ok in the playoffs, didn't really provide that big game clutch performance we expected. At least we managed to flip him for some promising futures.
- Turris, Bowers, a 1st, Hammond and third for Duchene, wow that's a lot to give up and why did we have to pay them a 3rd to still have Hammond taking up a spot in Belleville, well at least we got a great center back and the 1st round pick should be a late one, wait what's that? Oh crap we just went on a massive slump and went from being on a 100 pts pace to 2nd worse team in the league, that first went from mid twenties to top 10... why do you hate us hockey gods....
- 3rd to move up one spot in the draft... really? that's just odd. Who does that?
Phaneuf and Thompson for Gaborik and Shore, ok, so Shore looks like a younger Thompson, maybe we can re-sign h.. oh we traded him too. Why did we want Gaborik again? Man he's terrible, at least Phaneuf could play, oh and look at that, he's been decent in LA.

I mean, there's some logic to most of the deals he makes, so you can rationalize what he's doing, but man things inevitably go south.

 

[pzeeman]

Context is important obviously.

I think context is vital to understanding that Dorion isn’t a drooling moron.

Up until about 6 months ago, he was trying to win now, willing to reduce the odds of winning in 18-19, 19-20 and 20-21 to win in 16-17 and 17-18. Clearly the strategy didn’t work, but it’s why it all looks so awful on June 21, 2018. If you look at each trade and try to see what it was trying to accomplish, I don’t think it looks nearly as bad. Yeah, the future looks a little bleak (a lot bleak without EK) but that’s the price you pay when you push all your chips in.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Well we went from a playoff team (at least) to a bottom of the league team and now we got pennies on the dollar for Hoffman ... No 2nd , 3rd this year (and rebuilding/retooling) .. no 1st next year (likely a high pick and a high end player) or no 4th overall this year.... In a results oriented business which pro sports is .. this is just not good enough. I have no confidence in Dorion's decision making regarding trades , or building a winner.

 

[Micklebot]

I think context is vital to understanding that Dorion isn’t a drooling moron.

Up until about 6 months ago, he was trying to win now, willing to reduce the odds of winning in 18-19, 19-20 and 20-21 to win in 16-17 and 17-18. Clearly the strategy didn’t work, but it’s why it all looks so awful on June 21, 2018. If you look at each trade and try to see what it was trying to accomplish, I don’t think it looks nearly as bad. Yeah, the future looks a little bleak (a lot bleak without EK) but that’s the price you pay when you push all your chips in.

At the end of the day, he's the one who decided to go all in when we lack the resources to realistically win it all. It was a good run, but it came at a horrific cost.

The biggest issue to me though, is he made the right trades at the wrong times. Had he gone out and made the Duchene trade instead of flipping Zibanejad for Brass, I would have made a ton more sense. Acquiring Brassard is a great move for a team looking to add the final piece (albeit, not at the cost we paid imo). Woould have made more sense to go after Brass the year after going to the cup final, or as a deadline acquisition.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Well we went from a playoff team (at least) to a bottom of the league team and now we got pennies on the dollar for Hoffman ... No 2nd , 3rd this year (and rebuilding/retooling) .. no 1st next year (likely a high pick and a high end player) or no 4th overall this year.... In a results oriented business which pro sports is .. this is just not good enough. I have no confidence in Dorion's decision making regarding trades , or building a winner.

It's a good thing we have a bunch or great prospects on the way, a 40a and 22oa this year, a couple of top prospects that graduated last year, and a couple of top tier forwards in their prime who have stated that they want to stay. missing a 1st a 2nd and 3rd really isn't that big of a deal.

I wouldn't trade back Duchene to have whatever we could draft next year. the chance of that pick being a top pick is questionable, and the player picked is not likely to ever be as good as Duchene. The future is only bleak if you're wearing your bleak glasses.

We aren't missing our first next year, we have a prime number one centre instead of it.

 

[pzeeman]

At the end of the day, he's the one who decided to go all in when we lack the resources to realistically win it all. It was a good run, but it came at a horrific cost.

The biggest issue to me though, is he made the right trades at the wrong times. Had he gone out and made the Duchene trade instead of flipping Zibanejad for Brass, I would have made a ton more sense. Acquiring Brassard is a great move for a team looking to add the final piece (albeit, not at the cost we paid imo). Woould have made more sense to go after Brass the year after going to the cup final, or as a deadline acquisition.

That is a fair and interesting take.

I really liked your breakdown of how the well-intentioned big moves all blew up in his face. I’d like to say none of it was really his fault (except the Burrows extension), but is he really the most unlucky GM ever? Or is there something more?

 

[Micklebot]

That is a fair and interesting take.

I really liked your breakdown of how the well-intentioned big moves all blew up in his face. I’d like to say none of it was really his fault (except the Burrows extension), but is he really the most unlucky GM ever? Or is there something more?

There was clear risk in every trade he's made, and in many cases, imo the odds were against him. The Duchene one though appears to be really unlucky.

 

[BondraTime]

That is a fair and interesting take.

I really liked your breakdown of how the well-intentioned big moves all blew up in his face. I’d like to say none of it was really his fault (except the Burrows extension), but is he really the most unlucky GM ever? Or is there something more?

Most definitely something more

 

[Ice-Tray]

At the end of the day, he's the one who decided to go all in when we lack the resources to realistically win it all. It was a good run, but it came at a horrific cost.

The biggest issue to me though, is he made the right trades at the wrong times. Had he gone out and made the Duchene trade instead of flipping Zibanejad for Brass, I would have made a ton more sense. Acquiring Brassard is a great move for a team looking to add the final piece (albeit, not at the cost we paid imo). Woould have made more sense to go after Brass the year after going to the cup final, or as a deadline acquisition.

Horrific cost? Dahlen and a second is now Horrific?

We tanked last year because EK was bad, goaltending was bad, and the locker room was in shambles due to EK and Hoffman. We didn't have a bad season because we had Brass instead of Zib, Duchene instead of Turris, and lost Methot in the expansion draft.

The picks we paid had no effect on our performance last year either.

We had no business being as bad as we were last year, circumstances and goaltending sunk us. Coming to work every day to that toxic room, must have been brutal for everyone including our tender. I think we'll rebound to the bubble again after taking our handy 4OA, and hand over a mid round first to the Avs next year.

Ownership is horrific, a thin front office is horrific, the optics surround the organization due to off ice antics is horrific, once again a good player screwed us over on his way out, but the team is not in a horrific state, a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd are not going to ruin us, especially when we used the most meaningful of those assets to bag us a top line centre going forward.

We have all the pieces to be a young, fast, exciting team next year.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

It's a good thing we have a bunch or great prospects on the way, a 40a and 22oa this year, a couple of top prospects that graduated last year, and a couple of top tier forwards in their prime who have stated that they want to stay. missing a 1st a 2nd and 3rd really isn't that big of a deal.

I wouldn't trade back Duchene to have whatever we could draft next year. the chance of that pick being a top pick is questionable, and the player picked is not likely to ever be as good as Duchene. The future is only bleak if you're wearing your bleak glasses.

We aren't missing our first next year, we have a prime number one centre instead of it.

Our drafting is much better than our pro asset management. The way things are spiraling this summer the possibility that Duchene would want to move on could increase.. losing him or having to overpay .. could be where we are at... I admit it is possible it all works out well re Duchene... If EK gets traded .. Ceci ,is our #1 D and needs to be signed and could get overpaid as a result. Mark Stone another cornerstone piece is also an RFA due a hefty raise... Things could continue to spiral if we lose more top players. He could go to arbitration and take a 1 year deal. ... Yup I admit my view is bleak... sorry ... I am having a hard time finding the light.

 

[Micklebot]

Horrific cost? Dahlen and a second is now Horrific?

We tanked last year because EK was bad, goaltending was bad, and the locker room was in shambles due to EK and Hoffman. We didn't have a bad season because we had Brass instead of Zib, Duchene instead of Turris, and lost Methot in the expansion draft.

The picks we paid had no effect on our performance last year either.

We had no business being as bad as we were last year, circumstances and goaltending sunk us. Coming to work every day to that toxic room, must have been brutal for everyone including our tender. I think we'll rebound to the bubble again after taking our handy 4OA, and hand over a mid round first to the Avs next year.

Ownership is horrific, a thin front office is horrific, the optics surround the organization due to off ice antics is horrific, once again a good player screwed us over on his way out, but the team is not in a horrific state, a 1st a 2nd and a 3rd are not going to ruin us, especially when we used the most meaningful of those assets to bag us a top line centre going forward.

We have all the pieces to be a young, fast, exciting team next year.

You seem to be under the impression that one trade is the cost. It's everything. We decided to go all in, that meant trading Zib and a 2nd for Brassard, it meant flipping futures like Dahlen for a washed up vet that we had to sign an extra 2 years beyond his best before date, it also didn't end with the playoff run. I'm taking about the entirety of the decision to go all in, that includes last season where we kept buying up until the bottom fell out. The cost is what you see now, and it might mean losing Karlsson. It certainly means losing our 1st this year or next so that we could get a #1 center that we now have to convince to stick around. it means swapping Zibanejad at 23 years old and a 2nd for a 28 year old guy we've already shipped out for futures.

There is no way to describe our current situation other than horrific and a large part of that is because we went all in while clearly not being a team that any rational person really considered contenders.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

You seem to be under the impression that one trade is the cost. It's everything. We decided to go all in, that meant trading Zib and a 2nd for Brassard, it meant flipping futures like Dahlen for a washed up vet that we had to sign an extra 2 years beyond his best before date, it also didn't end with the playoff run. I'm taking about the entirety of the decision to go all in, that includes last season where we kept buying up until the bottom fell out. The cost is what you see now, and it might mean losing Karlsson. It certainly means losing our 1st this year or next so that we could get a #1 center that we now have to convince to stick around. it means swapping Zibanejad at 23 years old and a 2nd for a 28 year old guy we've already shipped out for futures.

There is no way to describe our current situation other than horrific and a large part of that is because we went all in while clearly not being a team that any rational person really considered contenders.

All the while disrupting the hell out of any chemistry the team had. I like Duchene and would love it if his true value could be maximized but .. it will be a few years before it could be and then.. guess what happens .. this is not considered management. This is tunnel vision.

 

[Bevans]

Can we spend a minute talking about how smart Dorion thinks he is? That's a big part of his problem running this team.

First of all, this insane "I get to pick which first you get" is a PR nightmare.

If he'd just lottery protected it like every other gm in history he wouldn't have to publically decide whether he thinks his team will suck next year. He cannot win with his choice, he'll piss off half the fan base no matter what he chooses (and the right choice is keeping it, so lottery protecting it would have has same result).

Second, there's a reason why three-way trades never happen. But dorion thinks he's smarter than everyone else and can pull off two of the most complicated trades of the cap era. GMs have him on speed dial at this point and happily use him as a pawn (see Tallon and Wilson).

Dorion refuses to keep it simple and he's burying this team in unnecessary details.

 

[pzeeman]

Would we be crying that Dorion didn’t try hard enough, to show Karlsson he was willing to go for it if he didn’t go all in taking risky moves? Would we be concerned that he wouldn’t re-sign because the Senators will never try?

It all seems like a no-win job to me.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Can we spend a minute talking about how smart Dorion thinks he is? That's a big part of his problem running this team.

First of all, this insane "I get to pick which first you get" is a PR nightmare.

If he'd just lottery protected it like every other gm in history he wouldn't have to publically decide whether he thinks his team will suck next year. He cannot win with his choice, he'll piss off half the fan base no matter what he chooses (and the right choice is keeping it, so lottery protecting it would have has same result).

Second, there's a reason why three-way trades never happen. But dorion thinks he's smarter than everyone else and can pull off two of the most complicated trades of the cap era. GMs have him on speed dial at this point and happily use him as a pawn (see Tallon and Wilson).

Dorion refuses to keep it simple and he's burying this team in unnecessary details.

Dorion grew up as a rink rat.. His father was a NHL scout. Now Dorion has the keys to the hockey ops. Its his dream job for sure. He is a kid in a candy store. Flip this , include that pick, get this guy no matter what, make jokes with other GMs.. play manager with Randy Lee and Guy Boucher .. hands off approach ... Its his dream come true..He just isn't very good at it (imo).

 

[Shruggs Peterson]

Can we spend a minute talking about how smart Dorion thinks he is? That's a big part of his problem running this team.

First of all, this insane "I get to pick which first you get" is a PR nightmare.

If he'd just lottery protected it like every other gm in history he wouldn't have to publically decide whether he thinks his team will suck next year. He cannot win with his choice, he'll piss off half the fan base no matter what he chooses (and the right choice is keeping it, so lottery protecting it would have has same result).

Second, there's a reason why three-way trades never happen. But dorion thinks he's smarter than everyone else and can pull off two of the most complicated trades of the cap era. GMs have him on speed dial at this point and happily use him as a pawn (see Tallon and Wilson).

Dorion refuses to keep it simple and he's burying this team in unnecessary details.

That's one way to look at it...

It's not so much smugness that I see from Dorion, but desperation and overplaying his hand. That first point I don't think is accurate. He's been fairly consistent about using that pick and all the side noise about giving it up is not coming from him (or at least not directly).

Doing media hits is certainly not a strength of his, Ian Mendes commented on Dorion saying the culture of the room will be changed for the better without being asked directly about it. Nevertheless, I also think the position that he is in now would be difficult for anyone to manage. The mandates put forth by the guy above him give a lot of explanation to the framework of the trades he's made, but the specifics signals he's pulling at both ends of the string with each move he makes.

He's spent a decade in hockey as an amateur scout, and for the most part I've liked the drafting of the team, but the trades he makes don't reflect anything reminiscent of that. Throwing around picks to close out deals is a characteristic of his dealings, and it's baffling given his background.

Regarding the Hoffman deal, that wasn't a 3 way trade...that was the Sens wanting to avoid trading their top line winger to a division rival for bodies rather than picks and Doug Wilson taking advantage of that to flip the asset for picks.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Most of the deals were designed to save money. Put the money in and it looks more balanced.

2018/19 Salaries:

Duchene (6.5M), Gaborik (4.575M), Boedker (3M), Burrows (2.5M), Condon (2.5M) = 19.075M

for

Turris (6M), Hoffman (5.65M), Zibanejad (5.5M), (Phaneuf (4.875M), Thompson (1.65M) = 23.675M

Team is in shambles but at least Dorion managed to save 4.6M

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Would we be crying that Dorion didn’t try hard enough, to show Karlsson he was willing to go for it if he didn’t go all in taking risky moves? Would we be concerned that he wouldn’t re-sign because the Senators will never try?

It all seems like a no-win job to me.

Karlsson would be much more willing to stick around on a team with a plan. This "must win now at all costs" thing is not how you keep young elite players around, it's how you attract aging/short-term UFAs.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

Regarding the Hoffman deal, that wasn't a 3 way trade...that was the Sens wanting to avoid trading their top line winger to a division rival for bodies rather than picks and Doug Wilson taking advantage of that to flip the asset for picks.