Sportsnet: Pierre Dorion Talks NHL Draft Picks

[Ice-Tray]

December 2017 or January 2018, when signs already pointed to Karlsson looking forward towards UFA, before the team went into a complete tailspin, and before the locker room conflict surfaced.

You would have gotten a lot more value for a (at the time) top-10 player who was signed at 6.5 million per season for the next 1.5 years.

Would it have been a difficult decision to make? Yes, but it's the type of proactive decision that should have been made.

It's not like Karlsson turning down the Senators offer in July was a surprise that caught them off guard. Everyone in the world knew he wasn't re-signing.

Except I don’t think you’re considering that it’s not the best time for other teams.

I mean it’s easy to say that we should trade EK when he’s at his best and available. The reality is that it always takes two to tango, and it takes even more than two to get a bidding war going.

Teams would need cap space, they would need to know if they were playoff bound, and then they would have to be willing to make an offer that is acceptable. Not an easy set of circumstances to line up, and certainly not as easy as you’re making it.

Teams weren’t lining up for EK when he actually did come available, and this was at a time when teams had space and were forming their rosters as opposed to being set like they would be when you’re suggest was a better time, what makes you think more teams would have lined up at an even worse time roster-wise?

Then of course there is the thought that we actually have no idea whether PD had an idea of what and who was interested at the time you mentioned. Perhaps it was considered and was not deemed optimal.

It’s fine to have an opinion, but there really is no reason to be so sure about it. It’s not like the time frame you mentioned is a time when most such deals are made normally anyways.

In the end the trade is tarting you look really strong, sooooo maybe the GM traded EK at just the right time?

 

[stempniaksen]

Lol, no.

I mean, every team that has to trade a pending UFA trades from a very similar position. It is what it is. It’s not a weakness, it’s just the realities of the contract position. We traded all three stars at the time where they garnered the most interest.

Given EKs injury history, and the way he starts slow, I think PD would have been making a massive mistake to start the season with him on the roster.

Anyways, we have opposing opinions, and both think that we hold common sense.

I think Dingle nailed it earlier on a different subject. Every team thinks their GM did it wrong when they don’t like the trade. Heck, SJ fans aren’t far from hating the EK trade, and wishing Wilson had not traded from a position of weakness when seemingly having no serious competition, yet selling off the farm anyways.

Just wait, we’re soon to come to the conclusion from both fan bases that the EK trade was a mutually bad trade made by two teams both in a position of weakness.... Haha!

Thanks for sharing your differing opinion.

I don't think there's a case to be made that the Sharks made the deal from a position of weakness, but I'm more than willing to hear the case if you've got one. Certainly different circumstances around the re-signing, but that's different than the trade itself.

 

[DaveMatthew]

Except I don’t think you’re considering that it’s not the best time for other teams.

I mean it’s easy to say that we should trade EK when he’s at his best and available. The reality is that it always takes two to tango, and it takes even more than two to get a bidding war going.

Teams would need cap space, they would need to know if they were playoff bound, and then they would have to be willing to make an offer that is acceptable. Not an easy set of circumstances to line up, and certainly not as easy as you’re making it.

Teams weren’t lining up for EK when he actually did come available, and this was at a time when teams had space and were forming their rosters as opposed to being set like they would be when you’re suggest was a better time, what makes you think more teams would have lined up at an even worse time roster-wise?

Then of course there is the thought that we actually have no idea whether PD had an idea of what and who was interested at the time you mentioned. Perhaps it was considered and was not deemed optimal.

It’s fine to have an opinion, but there really is no reason to be so sure about it. It’s not like the time frame you mentioned is a time when most such deals are made normally anyways.

I mean, you have no idea what teams were offering in 2017, what they offered at the draft, or what they offered later on in the summer. All we know is what he ended up being traded for.

You give Dorion the benefit of the doubt that he took the best offer, and I don't.

I think it's safe to say that Erik Karlsson's value was a lot higher in December 2017 than it was in August 2018, though. In December, most people would have considered him a top 10 player in the entire league. In August, that was no longer the case.

Personally, I think Dorion has made a series of very bad decisions, all of which have contributed to the Senators becoming the worst team in the entire league over the last 3 seasons. If he had made good decisions, we wouldn't be a last place team. How he handled Karlsson and Stone were two of those decisions.

You don't think Dorion had anything to do with the situation the team has found itself in, so there's really no point debating.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Thanks for sharing your differing opinion.

I don't think there's a case to be made that the Sharks made the deal from a position of weakness, but I'm more than willing to hear the case if you've got one. Certainly different circumstances around the re-signing, but that's different than the trade itself.

Of course you don’t. I suppose I could make up a bunch of stuff to explain why the Sharks were in a position of weakness, but I think the idea is foolish when folks in here do it in regards to the Sens, so I won’t bother.

Maybe keep checking in on the SJ board if you’d like to see a fan bases adjust their understandings to suit their mood.

I think the ‘position of weakness’ is just another board created but of silliness used to bash management because some fans are aimlessly disgruntled and can’t find a constructive way to deal with their emotions.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

DO a search; GCK had a fantastic time line. Factor in injuries, etc. There was no good time..Once word got out of his injury...it was over..Remember, he had suffered the stomp 3 years earlier.

Sadly, and I do not say this in nasty way..he was partly damaged goods. Given what he wanted for a contract and his injuries and his age...The time to trade him, really was the playoffs. Which is not realistic. In fact, his max value was the deadline 2016.

Ya, I did see it. I pretty much read everything posted to HFSens at some point.

My point was not to argue that Dorion put himself in a "position of weakness" all by himself as was disputed by Sweatred, but more that the fact is these guys were sold at the lowest values of their careers for various reasons and some of those reasons I attribute to Dorion like the competitiveness of the team and the previous allocation of the budget.

Their strategy with the budget flexibility they have is flawed imo. They can't compete with the big boys, nor are they going to be able to convince enough players to take home town discounts.

My "budget team strategy" I've posted about before and the only route I personally think a team spending ~70% of the cap with no year-to-year flexibility can potentially have sustained success with... You ALWAYS trade players worth anything while under contract, every time, full stop. Never do you let them walk or even enter their UFA season unless they're just filler players. Call it a perpetual rebuild, you are never "loading up" and you are never fully "tearing it down". You shuffle in and out pieces based on the trade market and you constantly target youth. You use ELC's and the bargain bin summer UFA market to fill holes, and you use trad-able assets to fill those holes as little as possible. You would have unavoidable down years that don't go so well because of the constant change, but you would never be "selling low" on a player. Two or three years from UFA? Time to start the process of moving you out while you still hold high value. The key to this strategy is always holding to it, you can't lose sight of the ultimate plan to keep the machine greased. A factory line of players you're never loyal to once essentially.

This team may be able to afford the contract after ELC, but that's it and they have to adapt to that inability going forward. For example, Chabot is not a member of this team beyond his current contract and you plan for exactly that. Tkachuk would be same story, White, etc. You never re-sign a "UFA" value contract for a player on your team.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I mean, you have no idea what teams were offering in 2017, what they offered at the draft, or what they offered later on in the summer. All we know is what he ended up being traded for.

You give Dorion the benefit of the doubt that he took the best offer, and I don't.

I think it's safe to say that Erik Karlsson's value was a lot higher in December 2017 than it was in August 2018, though. In December, most people would have considered him a top 10 player in the entire league. In August, that was no longer the case.

Personally, I think Dorion has made a series of very bad decisions, all of which have contributed to the Senators becoming the worst team in the entire league over the last 3 seasons. If he had made good decisions, we wouldn't be a last place team. How he handled Karlsson and Stone were two of those decisions.

You don't think Dorion had anything to do with the situation the team has found itself in, so there's really no point debating.

No, you have it wrong.

I think PD was instrumental in getting the team where it is right now.

I LIKE where the team is right now, a lot. I have high hopes for the culture and playing style of this new iteration of the Sens.

Looking back I am happy to have traded all of those players, especially EK, and am happy with the returns for the most part.

 

[DaveMatthew]

No, you have it wrong.

I think PD was instrumental in getting the team where it is right now.

I LIKE where the team is right now, a lot. I have high hopes for the culture and playing style of this new iteration of the Sens.

Looking back I am happy to have traded all of those players, especially EK, and am happy with the returns for the most part.

Great success!

Keep in mind that the majority of the prospects that we're excited about were hear before the "rebuild" started, like Brown, Batherson, Formenton, etc.

We could have been more competitive and still had a bright future.

 

[Ice-Tray]

View attachment 311647

Great success!

Keep in mind that the majority of the prospects that we're excited about were hear before the "rebuild" started, like Brown, Batherson, Formenton, etc.

We could have been more competitive and still had a bright future.

No, those are the prospects that YOU are most excited about.

I’m most excited about BT, Norris, Pinto, JBD, and Tompson. I definitely like the guys you mentioned as well, and am glad we have moved away from the previous core that bottomed out two years straight.

You don’t have to be excited about the future of this team dude, I understand, and it explains your natural perspective on most things Sens related. I might share some of them too if I was attached to the old core, and didn’t really like the new direction we’re taking.

But I’m not, and I do, so here we are

 

[Ice-Tray]

Tired take? So because it happened and you dont like it but its been brought up for years because IT HAPPENED it now doesnt count. You are a joke.

Lol, context and circumstances dude, the realistic alternatives would have destroyed the future of this team.

So yes, it’s a tired and ridiculous take. Having or not having a first round pick had no bearing on the time frame of the rebuild, it was an unfortunate coincident.

Lol, look at you running to the mods Bert, the rudest and most insulting poster on our boards can dish it but can’t take it.... Fitting.

 

[bert]

Lol, context and circumstances dude, the realistic alternatives would have destroyed the future of this team.

So yes, it’s a tired and ridiculous take. Having or not having a first round pick had no bearing on the time frame of the rebuild, it was an unfortunate coincident.

Lol, look at you running to the mods Bert, the rudest and most insulting poster on our boards can dish it but can’t take it.... Fitting.

I cant believe someone seriously lacks the intelligence to not understand that Dorion is responsible for creating a scenario where they were the worst team in the NHL without their first round pick proceeding to trade all the teams stars while backed against a wall and dealing from a position of weakness.

Your shitty argument about the team needing to rebuild so just give away all the assets at their lowest possible value was a plausible and smart way to go about it.

CONTEXT AND CIRCUMSTANCE are you kidding me.... This is exactly what you refuse to look at.

 

[DaveMatthew]

I cant believe someone seriously lacks the intelligence to not understand that Dorion is responsible for creating a scenario where they were the worst team in the NHL without their first round pick proceeding to trade all the teams stars while backed against a wall and dealing from a position of weakness.

Your ****ty argument about the team needing to rebuild so just give away all the assets at their lowest possible value was a plausible and smart way to go about it.

"It's not Dorion's fault that he traded that 1st round pick to Colorado! You can't blame him, he had no idea the team would be bad!"

2 minutes later...

"Getting a 1st round pick from San Jose was amazing! Dorion deserves all the credit, he knew San Jose was going to be bad!"

That's the perspective of some posters.

Dorion has made perfect decisions (just make sure to ignore the standings, Dorion has no impact on the team's actual on-ice performance).

 

[BatherSeason]

Lol, context and circumstances dude, the realistic alternatives would have destroyed the future of this team.

So yes, it’s a tired and ridiculous take. Having or not having a first round pick had no bearing on the time frame of the rebuild, it was an unfortunate coincident.

Lol, look at you running to the mods Bert, the rudest and most insulting poster on our boards can dish it but can’t take it.... Fitting.

Gotta say, the "Dorion walks on water" takes are the most tired and ridiculous takes IMO.

 

[Ice-Tray]

I cant believe someone seriously lacks the intelligence to not understand that Dorion is responsible for creating a scenario where they were the worst team in the NHL without their first round pick proceeding to trade all the teams stars while backed against a wall and dealing from a position of weakness.

Your ****ty argument about the team needing to rebuild so just give away all the assets at their lowest possible value was a plausible and smart way to go about it.

Bert, you ran to the mods when I criticized your opinion, and then turn around and insult me personally. Careful, your character is showing.

Anyways, your inability to understand alternate opinions is not my problem.

You have consistently argued that we shouldn’t have started a rebuild because we didn’t have a first last year, and yet, given that none of the pending UFAs intended to sign here it’s doesn’t really leave an alternative does it? EK left the season before of his own free will.

To suggest that we sign all of those guys to the deals they got, just to avoid a rebuild because we didn’t have OUR first that year (we did of course have a first rounder) would have been the biggest disaster to have befallen our franchise in my opinion. We would have had the joy of watching that bottoms feeding team, with stars, entertain us for the next 8 years.

But again, signing any of those guys was not happening, because it turns out the players have a say, so how exactly were we to avoid the rebuild?

And why exactly? For Byram?

Yes, it’s a ridiculous take.

 

[JD1]

If I knew I wasn't going to have the financial backing of ownership? The summer after the run. The roster had taken a hit anyways and at minimum a reset was needed.

I was more splitting hairs that he was selling all of Stone, Karlsson, Duchene & Hoffman at realistically their lowest values at any point of their careers, after they'd established themselves, because of the various circumstances. Is that all Dorion's fault? No, but I would say he still had the gun to his head for all of them and technically had to sell low.

The summer after the ecf run was when Karlsson had his surgery. You'd of been trading a damaged player coming off the best team run in a decade. You sure that was an ideal time?

 

[Ice-Tray]

"It's not Dorion's fault that he traded that 1st round pick to Colorado! You can't blame him, he had no idea the team would be bad!"

2 minutes later...

"Getting a 1st round pick from San Jose was amazing! Dorion deserves all the credit, he knew San Jose was going to be bad!"

That's the perspective of some posters.

Dorion has made perfect decisions (just make sure to ignore the standings, Dorion has no impact on the team's actual on-ice performance).

Dave you’re better than this.

No one said it wasn’t PDs fault for trading the pick, you made that bit up for some reason.

Some posters blame PD because that pick ended up being a 4oa, while claiming that PD is lucky that the SJ pick may be high.

I think that’s what you meant to say.

The reasonable position that you’re searching for is that it was unfortunate how high our pick was, and it’s unfortunate for SJ how high theirs may be.

The rest is just noise.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Gotta say, the "Dorion walks on water" takes are the most tired and ridiculous takes IMO.

I can imagine how arguments to the centre must seem like walking on water from your perspective.

Maybe take a break if you’re tired.

 

[BatherSeason]

I can imagine how arguments to the centre must seem like walking on water from your perspective.

Maybe take a break if you’re tired.

I'm confused, so, you are allowed to call an opinion "tired" and "ridiculous" but no one else can? Maybe you need the break

 

[JD1]

I mean, you have no idea what teams were offering in 2017, what they offered at the draft, or what they offered later on in the summer. All we know is what he ended up being traded for.

You give Dorion the benefit of the doubt that he took the best offer, and I don't.

I think it's safe to say that Erik Karlsson's value was a lot higher in December 2017 than it was in August 2018, though. In December, most people would have considered him a top 10 player in the entire league. In August, that was no longer the case.

Personally, I think Dorion has made a series of very bad decisions, all of which have contributed to the Senators becoming the worst team in the entire league over the last 3 seasons. If he had made good decisions, we wouldn't be a last place team. How he handled Karlsson and Stone were two of those decisions.

You don't think Dorion had anything to do with the situation the team has found itself in, so there's really no point debating.

Some of your takes Dave are a bit off imo

Karlsson was spectacular in the ecf run and then had a difficult, highly unusual surgery. As of December 2017, he'd played 3 months post surgery and those 3 months were certainly not the highlight of his career. He was struggling with his skating in several areas. I doubt at December 2017 anyone with professional credentials considered him a top 10 player in the game, in fact at that point in time i suspect most were unsure what the future held for him. By the end of that season he had recovered somehat and was clearly better than at the start of the year, but still not at 2017 ecf levels. Many here were arguing that he had fully recovered if you recall (i wasn't one of those people). As a hockey player, i suspect the consensus was his future was brighter in the summer of 18 than it was in December of 17 given he'd put more time between him and that injury

Karlsson was playing at a generational level for a lot of years. No debate from me on that. Once that injury occurred though, his future outlook changed. The team was in the position of having to trade a compromised asset. That's just the way it was. And at this stage the return is starting to look pretty exciting

As for Karlsson.... some argue he has recovered. TSN released their top 50 list this week. No Karlsson. Can you imagine how f***ed up that would have been three years ago?

 

[DaveMatthew]

Some of your takes Dave are a bit off imo

Karlsson was spectacular in the ecf run and then had a difficult, highly unusual surgery. As of December 2017, he'd played 3 months post surgery and those 3 months were certainly not the highlight of his career. He was struggling with his skating in several areas. I doubt at December 2017 anyone with professional credentials considered him a top 10 player in the game, in fact at that point in time i suspect most were unsure what the future held for him. By the end of that season he had recovered somehat and was clearly better than at the start of the year, but still not at 2017 ecf levels. Many here were arguing that he had fully recovered if you recall (i wasn't one of those people). As a hockey player, i suspect the consensus was his future was brighter in the summer of 18 than it was in December of 17 given he'd put more time between him and that injury

Karlsson was playing at a generational level for a lot of years. No debate from me on that. Once that injury occurred though, his future outlook changed. The team was in the position of having to trade a compromised asset. That's just the way it was. And at this stage the return is starting to look pretty exciting

As for Karlsson.... some argue he has recovered. TSN released their top 50 list this week. No Karlsson. Can you imagine how ****ed up that would have been three years ago?

In September 2017, post-surgery, Karlsson was #3 on TSN's top 50 list: A new No. 1: McDavid edges Crosby in TSN's Top 50 player poll - TSN.ca

 

[Ice-Tray]

I'm confused, so, you are allowed to call an opinion "tired" and "ridiculous" but no one else can? Maybe you need the break

Correct!

 

[JD1]

In September 2017, post-surgery, Karlsson was #3 on TSN's top 50 list: A new No. 1: McDavid edges Crosby in TSN's Top 50 player poll - TSN.ca

Right... September 2017 ... BEFORE he skated on that ankle....that's my point Dave....once he started skating on it, it was evident he wasn't the same...today he has the league's highest AAV among defenders and his name is nowhere in sight on that list

Glad we dodged that bullet

 

[DaveMatthew]

Right... September 2017 ... BEFORE he skated on that ankle....that's my point Dave....once he started skating on it, it was evident he wasn't the same...today he has the league's highest AAV among defenders and his name is nowhere in sight on that list

Glad we dodged that bullet

Everyone knew that there would be a recovery period. I don't think a slow start after surgery and no training camp would have been that big a concern for many teams.

My point is that in early 2017, Karlsson was thought of as a top 10 player and had 2 years left on a bargain contract.
In early 2018, Karlsson was no longer thought of as a top 10 player and was a year away from UFA.

The top player had more value.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Everyone knew that there would be a recovery period. I don't think a slow start after surgery and no training camp would have been that big a concern for many teams.

My point is that in early 2017, Karlsson was thought of as a top 10 player and had 2 years left on a bargain contract.
In early 2018, Karlsson was no longer thought of as a top 10 player and was a year away from UFA.

The top player had more value.

I think maybe you thought he was top 10, I think GMs were more likely to take a wait and see approach given the severity of the injury.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

The summer after the ecf run was when Karlsson had his surgery. You'd of been trading a damaged player coming off the best team run in a decade. You sure that was an ideal time?

Ideal? No, although I think his actual play that year coming off the surgery had more of an impact on his value than the surgery itself. It went from waiting for him to recover, to, "shit, this guy might be done" after seeing him play that season. Their defense without Methot, a healthy EK, and terrible goaltending had me hopeful it was just a perfect storm that could be corrected and obviously argued as such. It is looking like Karlsson is indeed a different player post surgery and the return has developed nicely.

If we're talking the best time based on value, then it's obviously before the run or during that season. My thoughts on how such a low budget team needs to operate is that it is exactly what needs to happen to avoid these 5 year complete fan check out type rebuilds.

I don't want to wade in to this debate much and I am doing my best to stay out of the contentious mud slinging anymore. I was upset about their handling and how they chose to proceed. I was upset about who was left on the books or brought in that I would have liked to give away for free, while we watched much more desirable players leave, even though it wasn't a fixable situation. I was upset about their PR and how i felt treated as a fan, particularly by the Dorion and Nick R interviews. I was upset that I felt like they took no responsibility for the situation or had the empathy required to try to smooth it over. I was upset about a lot, but I could have lived with any trade of any player at any time and I think that's the only way forward for this team even with a clean salary slate. They don't have the funds to define and hang on to a core beyond ELC + One contract, it will need to be a fluid situation of many players under contract being dealt at prime times to keep the influx of pieces going.

 

[GCK]

I cant believe someone seriously lacks the intelligence to not understand that Dorion is responsible for creating a scenario where they were the worst team in the NHL without their first round pick proceeding to trade all the teams stars while backed against a wall and dealing from a position of weakness.

Your ****ty argument about the team needing to rebuild so just give away all the assets at their lowest possible value was a plausible and smart way to go about it.

CONTEXT AND CIRCUMSTANCE are you kidding me.... This is exactly what you refuse to look at.

Bert you are one hundred per cent right. We should have held on to those players and finished 28th without our 1st and then watch them walk.