Prospect Info: Pick #78 - Shayne Gostisbehere, Defenseman, Union College (NCAA)

[hatcher]

The players are far more important than the system.

A perfect system with the wrong players will do nothing.

I agree but playing the same way every night to the best of the teams ability if what pages you over the top.

 

[Adtar02]

All coaches have strengths & weaknesses.

How many points do you think the Flyers should have had last season? Keep in mind Mrazek gave them 17 games with an .891 save percentage.

I don’t think 98 points was underachieving.

For how much Hakstol gets painted as a moron & among the worst coaches in the league, his results with a mediocre team in a league with great parity suggest he does some things right.

I don’t think he’s a great coach. But I don’t think he’s anywhere near as bad as most of the “regular posters” portray. They’d have you believe he does nothing right & everything wrong. I can’t get on board with that extreme negative take on him.

see this is where I struggle with you. I dont think 98 points was underacheiving from the team. But I do think Hak is having serious growing pains in the NHL

I dont Believe he is a bad coach. I do think there has been a major difference in talent from the first line to the 4th line. More so than other playoff team. I dont look at the team as mediocre team. Where I see the issues is he keeps pluging away using players in specific roles as though he has better depth. One of the reason I wanted to wait to more g from center, as i thought even if he played like the year before its still a better center than Filpula.

This my issue with him he seems to have role and use players for those role that dont fit the role well enough. So instead of adapting an changing he keeps going and you get the split coach sucks and the talent isnt good enough.

Filp and Lehtera fit this. As well as the the original forth line. Was talked about as a great forth line then he mucked with it.

 

[Striiker]

I agree but playing the same way every night to the best of the teams ability if what pages you over the top.

No team has ever, or will ever, do that. It's simply not possible to be consistent every night.

That's why you've never seen a team go undefeated. Even if they're close in quality, there has to be a "best" roster... but you can never tell who that is because it's impossible to be 100% consistent. Even the best teams in the league have bad games where they look like trash.

Caps won the cup last year and I guarantee if you go through their GDTs there will be plenty of complaints.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

As has been explained to you multiple times, the bench management is what causes the change.

By benching everyone who has the ability to move the puck, the remaining trash players on the ice end up in a shell and then just dump the puck out and hope they can change before the opponent gets the puck back. It's indisputable that the team abandons any chance at scoring at the end of the game and just goes into the shell. That's all guys like Hagg, Mac, Filppula, Lehtera, Manning, etc could do.

I doubt Hakstol literally says the words "don't try to score a goal" but that's EXACTLY what his actions say.

You sure like repeatedly explaining things to people.

Except when you accuse someone of misrepresenting your opinion, & then refuse to explain what you were claiming was misrepresented. (LOL, don’t worry, everyone knows why you’re dodging that one.)

Btw, Where do you think the Flyers’ roster ranks talent-wise in the league, from 1-31?

You can’t play Couturier & Provorov for 60 minutes, sadly.

Hakstol doesn’t have a lot at his disposal.

I get you think he should play TK & Ghost in the last 5 minutes protecting a lead. I don’t necessarily disagree. But I can see why he doesn’t trust them that late when one big mistake can cost you a lead. And my point, as you are well aware, is that those who contend the “Hakshell” is a system change are wrong. You’ve adjusted and say it refers to personnel usage. Fine. But many are still laboring under the delusion that Hakstol changes his team’s system to a passive shell & it’s just flat-out incorrect.

 

[Striiker]

You sure like repeatedly explaining things to people.

Except when you accuse someone of misrepresenting your opinion, & then refuse to explain what you were claiming was misrepresented. (LOL, don’t worry, everyone knows why you’re dodging that one.)

Btw, Where do you think the Flyers’ roster ranks talent-wise in the league, from 1-31?

You can’t play Couturier & Provorov for 60 minutes, sadly.

Hakstol doesn’t have a lot at his disposal.

I get you think he should play TK & Ghost in the last 5 minutes protecting a lead. I don’t necessarily disagree. But I can see why he doesn’t trust them that late when one big mistake can cost you a lead. And my point, as you are well aware, is that those who contend the “Hakshell” is a system change are wrong. You’ve adjusted and say it refers to personnel usage. Fine. But many are still laboring under the delusion that Hakstol changes his team’s system to a passive shell & it’s just flat-out incorrect.

If people stop saying incorrect things then they won't need to be corrected so often. And you're the one dodging. I gave you an opportunity but you refuse to admit a simple concept. If you had, we could have moved on. But you just can't be honest.

Where do the Flyers rank in talent? Don't know, don't care. Completely irrelevant.

All that matters is they have enough talent to do better than they have been, but the coach is holding them back by under-using the talent he does have. You can say he doesn't trust them, but that's just another Hakstol flaw. If he views guys like TK and Ghost as less trustworthy than Hagg/Mac/Manning/Filp/Lehtera then you're admitting he can't evaluate players. But we both know you're too biased in his favor to admit this fault.

And who said it was a system change? I've only seen people mention the shell when talking about the focus/mentality change at the end of games, which is obvious when you see his player usage. By changing who he plays, he changes the focus/mentality. By changing the focus/mentality, he decides he's OK with spending the rest of the game in the defensive zone and hoping to survive. That's how I've always described it and that's how most others have too, so there's no "adjustment".

 

[Adtar02]

You sure like repeatedly explaining things to people.

Except when you accuse someone of misrepresenting your opinion, & then refuse to explain what you were claiming was misrepresented. (LOL, don’t worry, everyone knows why you’re dodging that one.)

Btw, Where do you think the Flyers’ roster ranks talent-wise in the league, from 1-31?

You can’t play Couturier & Provorov for 60 minutes, sadly.

Hakstol doesn’t have a lot at his disposal.

I get you think he should play TK & Ghost in the last 5 minutes protecting a lead. I don’t necessarily disagree. But I can see why he doesn’t trust them that late when one big mistake can cost you a lead. And my point, as you are well aware, is that those who contend the “Hakshell” is a system change are wrong. You’ve adjusted and say it refers to personnel usage. Fine. But many are still laboring under the delusion that Hakstol changes his team’s system to a passive shell & it’s just flat-out incorrect.

How many Leads did we give up late doing it his way????

 

[Magua]

It’s a shame we can’t look at stats with the Flyers leading/tied/trailing to see how they perform relative to the league. Nuts.

Kelowna is full of animals these days LOl. never look for trouble but if it comes your way you gotta be ready.

Just replace Kelowna with whatever town, and I’m 97% sure this is a quote from some 80s movie. Every 80s movie. There’s no way Kurt Russell or Patrick Swayze didn’t say this.

 

[Garbage Goal]

It’s a shame we can’t look at stats with the Flyers leading/tied/trailing to see how they perform relative to the league. Nuts.



Just replace Kelowna with whatever town, and I’m 97% sure this is a quote from some 80s movie. Every 80s movie. There’s no way Kurt Russell or Patrick Swayze didn’t say this.

Well, hatcher is from an 80’s movie so that makes sense.

 

[Hiesenberg]

All coaches have strengths & weaknesses.

How many points do you think the Flyers should have had last season? Keep in mind Mrazek gave them 17 games with an .891 save percentage.

I don’t think 98 points was underachieving.

For how much Hakstol gets painted as a moron & among the worst coaches in the league, his results with a mediocre team in a league with great parity suggest he does some things right.

I don’t think he’s a great coach. But I don’t think he’s anywhere near as bad as most of the “regular posters” portray. They’d have you believe he does nothing right & everything wrong. I can’t get on board with that extreme negative take on him.

His awfulness came full circle when he broke apart one of the best lines in hockey to make two terrible lines.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

View attachment 136605

Holy shit @ the weise/horse head. This is pure gold!!

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Where do the Flyers rank in talent? Don't know, don't care. Completely irrelevant.

LMAO.

Yeah, if you’re going to complain that the team is underperforming because of the coach, it’s pretty damn relevant to ask where you think the roster ranks in the NHL. More dodging.

 

[deadhead]

Where do the Flyers rank in talent? Don't know, don't care. Completely irrelevant.

All that matters is they have enough talent to do better than they have been,

Well, how do you know that if you don't know where they rank talent wise?
If they're 20th in overall talent, then making the playoffs is overachieving.
If they're 5th, then not getting to the 2nd rd is underachieving.

Every team can "do better than they've been," "if only . . . " - so that's essentially the same nitpicking every fan base, empowered by the gift of hindsight (and blessed with ignorance) engages in.

I agree with the odds makers, going into last season they were 15-20th in talent, a marginal playoff team that could be expected to garner 90-92 points, ranked with teams like the Devils, Carolina and the Islanders. And going into the playoffs they were paired with the Devils and Avalanche as the least talented of the 16 teams by a sizeable margin.

(there is no evidence that outside of Philly that odds makers or anyone else thinks this team underachieves due to the HC - when outside observers doubt this team's chances it's due to lack of depth and shaky goal tending, not coaching).

 

[Ghosts Beer]

The oddsmakers had the Flyers tied for 21st out of 31 teams in preseason Stanley Cup odds.

Seems a pretty good estimate of where their roster ranked in the league to me.

They finished tied for 12th in the league.

The way people rant & rave about how Hakstol is holding them back you would never guess it possible.

 

[Rebels57]

Same reason as you make these kinds of posts all the time.

You see something you disagree with, so you make a post about it. That’s the whole point of a forum.

My posts like this require no thought or effort and are not a wall of text though.

 

[Striiker]

LMAO.

Yeah, if you’re going to complain that the team is underperforming because of the coach, it’s pretty damn relevant to ask where you think the roster ranks in the NHL. More dodging.

I'm not comparing their performance to another team, I'm comparing them to their own potential. So no, their league-wide rank isn't relevant here.



Try to follow along here...

Hypothetically, if they had the most skilled roster in the entire league (imagine 6 McDavid clones), but the coach healthy scratched those top 6 most skilled players, you wouldn't see the most skilled team on the ice and the results wouldn't be what you would expect from the the most skilled team. That would be the fault of the coach and obviously worthy of criticism.

Now, imagine you instead had the least skilled roster in the league and the coach still scratches the top 6 most skilled players on the team. The overall expectations for the team would have been far lower, but the coach would still deserve blame for making winning even harder than it had to be. Nobody is saying the least skilled team would have won the cup if those top 6 players were in the lineup (they'd still have been the worst team), but that doesn't excuse the coach for making the team even worse than it already was.

Fact is, no matter what the Flyers rank in skill would be, top of the league or bottom of the league, it isn't going to be reflected in their results if they don't properly use whatever amount of skill is available to them. And that's the problem, Hakstol didn't properly use the talent he had.

That deserves criticism and anyone who isn't blindly pro-Hak can admit that. So let's see if you're as unbiased as you keep pretending you are or if you'll be a liar.

 

[hatcher]

It’s a shame we can’t look at stats with the Flyers leading/tied/trailing to see how they perform relative to the league. Nuts.



Just replace Kelowna with whatever town, and I’m 97% sure this is a quote from some 80s movie. Every 80s movie. There’s no way Kurt Russell or Patrick Swayze didn’t say this.

maybe but in real life Ill never be the one wishing I was trained man. Kelowna is beautiful but has a high crime rate and allot of f*** heads in it lol.

 

[Tripod]

The oddsmakers had the Flyers tied for 21st out of 31 teams in preseason Stanley Cup odds.

Seems a pretty good estimate of where their roster ranked in the league to me.

They finished tied for 12th in the league.

The way people rant & rave about how Hakstol is holding them back you would never guess it possible.

Are those the same oddsmakers that had the Oilers #2 and Vegas as dead last?

We finished right around where I expected, but sometimes you need to look at how we got there. Besides guys who have been stars in lower leagues, we don't get great years from anyone else.

 

[Tripod]

maybe but in real life Ill never be the one wishing I was trained man. Kelowna is beautiful but has a high crime rate and allot of **** heads in it lol.

You need to become Sheriff!

 

[hatcher]

You need to become Sheriff!

f*** that. Lol

 

[Striiker]

My posts like this require no thought or effort and are not a wall of text though.

It's a testament to my level of boredom that sometimes it's worth whatever amount of effort it takes.

 

[deadhead]

So with a real coach we'd have garnered 105 points and made it to the 2nd round?
Which basically implies we were more talented than Toronto last year. Because they have a real coach.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

You need to become Sheriff!

 

[Ghosts Beer]

I'm not comparing their performance to another team, I'm comparing them to their own potential. So no, their league-wide rank isn't relevant here.



Try to follow along here...

Hypothetically, if they had the most skilled roster in the entire league (imagine 6 McDavid clones), but the coach healthy scratched those top 6 most skilled players, you wouldn't see the most skilled team on the ice and the results wouldn't be what you would expect from the the most skilled team. That would be the fault of the coach and obviously worthy of criticism.

Now, imagine you instead had the least skilled roster in the league and the coach still scratches the top 6 most skilled players on the team. The overall expectations for the team would have been far lower, but the coach would still deserve blame for making winning even harder than it had to be. Nobody is saying the least skilled team would have won the cup if those top 6 players were in the lineup (they'd still have been the worst team), but that doesn't excuse the coach for making the team even worse than it already was.

Fact is, no matter what the Flyers rank in skill would be, top of the league or bottom of the league, it isn't going to be reflected in their results if they don't properly use whatever amount of skill is available to them. And that's the problem, Hakstol didn't properly use the talent he had.

That deserves criticism and anyone who isn't blindly pro-Hak can admit that. So let's see if you're as unbiased as you keep pretending you are or if you'll be a liar.

Dear God, the mental gymnastics you’re going through.

If you are contending the Flyers underachieved because of Hakstol, it’s 100% relevant to ask where the overall talent he had at his disposal ranks in the league.

You’re trying to obfuscate a simple question, as is your wont when you know the answer doesn’t jive with your extreme position.

Preseason Cup odds don’t factor in lineup decisions. Just the overall rosters. The Flyers were ranked in the bottom 10 teams in the league. Is it a perfect evaluation method? Of course not. But it’s the most objective rough estimate you’re going to get.

They finished 12th in the NHL. You think, regardless of lineup decisions, the players on the Flyers’ NHL roster were better than 12th in the league? With the goaltending situation, to boot? I sure don’t.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Are those the same oddsmakers that had the Oilers #2 and Vegas as dead last?

We finished right around where I expected, but sometimes you need to look at how we got there. Besides guys who have been stars in lower leagues, we don't get great years from anyone else.

They are far from perfect, but the best objective rough estimate you’re going to find. Of course they ranked the expansion team last. They’d have been stupid not to based on history.

Edmonton made it to the 2nd round the year before & had the best young player in hockey. I don’t think it was outlandish to have them tied for second in the odds with....Cup winner Washington.

Seems like Edmonton’s coach was in charge of a lot more underachieving than Hakstol. The insane part is I bet you’d argue for MacLellan over Hakstol.

 

[Striiker]

Dear God, the mental gymnastics you’re going through.

If you are contending the Flyers underachieved because of Hakstol, it’s 100% relevant to ask where the overall talent he had at his disposal ranks in the league.

You’re trying to obfuscate a simple question, as is your wont when you know the answer doesn’t jive with your extreme position.

Preseason Cup odds don’t factor in lineup decisions. Just the overall rosters. The Flyers were ranked in the bottom 10 teams in the league. Is it a perfect evaluation method? Of course not. But it’s the most objective rough estimate you’re going to get.

They finished 12th in the NHL. You think, regardless of lineup decisions, the players on the Flyers’ NHL roster were better than 12th in the league? With the goaltending situation, to boot? I sure don’t.

So, to be clear, this means you can't admit it? I notice you dodged the question.

And there's no mental gymnastics required. Just a simple concept that had to be explained since you're too biased and dishonest to admit the obvious.

The Flyers had a certain amount of talent, that talent was underused, which means the team could have been better than it was. And who decided to underuse that talent? The coach. Super simple.

The fact that you won't admit it is a giant flare shot into the sky, signalling that you're so far away from the middle you claim to be in. But we already knew that, since you said Hakstol was an above average coach.