Prospect Info: Pick #78 - Shayne Gostisbehere, Defenseman, Union College (NCAA)

[Magua]

Is anyone confident in saying what Gostisbehere's ceiling might be?

A perennial 50+ point top 4 d man. No reason he can't be a quality PKer too. PKing is even less physical defending than 5v5....more about skating and instincts and stickwork.

But considering Hakstol (and Murphy) treats him as an unreliable, sheltered, bottom pair PP specialist not allowed to play in close games unless behind, who knows if he'll become the player he can potentially be under his tutelage.

 

[Striiker]

I'd rather he play a ton of PP and 5v5 than PK. We have enough other options for the future PK, I think.

Provorov, Gudas, Morin, Sanheim, Myers?, Hagg?, or MacDonald.

 

[Magua]

I'd rather he play a ton of PP and 5v5 than PK. We have enough other options for the future PK, I think.

Provorov, Gudas, Morin, Sanheim, Myers?, Hagg?, or MacDonald.

If 5 d men were in the box, he wouldn't PK. So it doesn't matter. If he doesn't do it now, he won't when better d-men come along. I'm just saying he could do it and do it well.

Personally, I think your best players should play in the highest leverage situations of the game. PK is a higher leverage situation than 5v5. And there'd be no real reason he couldn't do both. Erik Karlsson does. There's no reason he can't be as good -- or better -- than many of those names listed. It's just an old school mentality that PKers must be big and tough, when in reality they're not often engaged in physical play anyway there.

Here's the biggest issue: Ghost is 7th among Flyers' d-men in 5v5 ice time this season. So what ton of 5v5 ice time is he getting as is?

 

[FLYguy3911]

I don't think you'll have to worry about Ghost PKing as long as Hakstol is here. I won't forget the game against NYR last year where they had 3 defensemen available for one particular PK, one of them being Ghost. Hakstol just left the other two defensemen on the ice to kill the 2 minute powerplay.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Given that Gostisbehere has less 4v5 time than VdV has PP time over the last 2 years, I would tend to agree.

 

[Striiker]

If 5 d men were in the box, he wouldn't PK. So it doesn't matter. If he doesn't do it now, he won't when better d-men come along. I'm just saying he could do it and do it well.

Personally, I think your best players should play in the highest leverage situations of the game. PK is a higher leverage situation than 5v5. And there'd be no real reason he couldn't do both. Erik Karlsson does. There's no reason he can't be as good -- or better -- than many of those names listed. It's just an old school mentality that PKers must be big and tough, when in reality they're not often engaged in physical play anyway there.

Here's the biggest issue: Ghost is 7th among Flyers' d-men in 5v5 ice time this season. So what ton of 5v5 ice time is he getting as is?

That's why I said I'd rather he played a ton at 5v5. As in, he isn't playing that much now and if he's increasing his playing time, it should be there.

What's really puzzling is that he's not playing at the end of games when we have the lead. Sitting back and defending is an awful idea, they should be trying to move the puck out of the zone instead of accepting that it's in there and just trying to avoid a goal. Best defense is a good offense, right?

 

[deadhead]

A perennial 50+ point top 4 d man. No reason he can't be a quality PKer too. PKing is even less physical defending than 5v5....more about skating and instincts and stickwork.

But considering Hakstol (and Murphy) treats him as an unreliable, sheltered, bottom pair PP specialist not allowed to play in close games unless behind, who knows if he'll become the player he can potentially be under his tutelage.

Really? D-men don't clear guys out of the crease on the PK?
Just stand there and watch the action.
Also, a good PK D-man needs to block shots, not sure I want Ghost in that role.

if I were playing Ghost on the PK, I'd have him at forward chasing the puck.

Now Morin should eventually be a great PK guy, he can clear the crease by breathing down the forward's neck, and with his reach, disrupt those cross ice passes.
Same with Myers, who also has the speed to be disruptive.
Sanheim when he grows up and isn't so scrawny.
Provorov of course.
I'd even prefer Hagg over Ghost in that role.

 

[Tripod]

With who we have coming, Ghost won't be needed to PK at all. But him being 7th in ES TOI is just plain stupid when you dress AMac and Manning every night.

 

[Magua]

Really? D-men don't clear guys out of the crease on the PK?
Just stand there and watch the action.
Also, a good PK D-man needs to block shots, not sure I want Ghost in that role.

if I were playing Ghost on the PK, I'd have him at forward chasing the puck.

Now Morin should eventually be a great PK guy, he can clear the crease by breathing down the forward's neck, and with his reach, disrupt those cross ice passes.
Same with Myers, who also has the speed to be disruptive.
Sanheim when he grows up and isn't so scrawny.
Provorov of course.
I'd even prefer Hagg over Ghost in that role.

Is this a poem?

 

[whitstifier]

Really? D-men don't clear guys out of the crease on the PK?
Just stand there and watch the action.
Also, a good PK D-man needs to block shots, not sure I want Ghost in that role.

if I were playing Ghost on the PK, I'd have him at forward chasing the puck.

Now Morin should eventually be a great PK guy, he can clear the crease by breathing down the forward's neck, and with his reach, disrupt those cross ice passes.
Same with Myers, who also has the speed to be disruptive.
Sanheim when he grows up and isn't so scrawny.
Provorov of course.
I'd even prefer Hagg over Ghost in that role.

Gostisbehere anticipates play well. He could create more rushes on the PK by poaching mistakes. Haven't looked at the numbers, but it seems like the Flyers are lousy at creating shorthanded opportunities on net.

 

[whitstifier]

With who we have coming, Ghost won't be needed to PK at all. But him being 7th in ES TOI is just plain stupid when you dress AMac and Manning every night.

Yeah, he's one of the top shooters from the blue line on the Flyers. If his s% normalizes, Gostisbehere should score 15+ goals. It's stupid to limit icetime for a player like that. That means fewer shots and potential goals

 

[deadhead]

Ghost limited his own ice time, he was hobbled by the surgery (as was Giroux, but it was more obvious when Ghost got his legs back), but he was also careless - which isn't unexpected - Ghost needed that one year in the AHL to learn how to play defense. He certainly didn't learn it in college, where he could outskate 99% of opposing players.

His biggest enemy is his own talent, the last couple months after he got told to sit in the corner he played better defense, not great, but at least he was trying and not as many brain dead plays. Ghost still has a way to go, scoring is half the game, keeping the other team from scoring is the other half. He's not going to be Kimmo, but at least if he works on it and gets a little stronger and smarter he can be average. Which is good enough given his offensive talents.

There is a reason they call them "defense" men.

 

[Tripod]

Also not playing with **** D partners helps.

 

[whitstifier]

Ghost limited his own ice time, he was hobbled by the surgery (as was Giroux, but it was more obvious when Ghost got his legs back), but he was also careless - which isn't unexpected - Ghost needed that one year in the AHL to learn how to play defense. He certainly didn't learn it in college, where he could outskate 99% of opposing players.

His biggest enemy is his own talent, the last couple months after he got told to sit in the corner he played better defense, not great, but at least he was trying and not as many brain dead plays. Ghost still has a way to go, scoring is half the game, keeping the other team from scoring is the other half. He's not going to be Kimmo, but at least if he works on it and gets a little stronger and smarter he can be average. Which is good enough given his offensive talents.

There is a reason they call them "defense" men.

Before his first benching, as has been referenced multiple times to you, Gostisbehere was on pace to match his production from last season. Can't recall his defense looking bad during that stretch...

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Ghost limited his own ice time, he was hobbled by the surgery (as was Giroux, but it was more obvious when Ghost got his legs back), but he was also careless - which isn't unexpected - Ghost needed that one year in the AHL to learn how to play defense. He certainly didn't learn it in college, where he could outskate 99% of opposing players.

His biggest enemy is his own talent, the last couple months after he got told to sit in the corner he played better defense, not great, but at least he was trying and not as many brain dead plays. Ghost still has a way to go, scoring is half the game, keeping the other team from scoring is the other half. He's not going to be Kimmo, but at least if he works on it and gets a little stronger and smarter he can be average. Which is good enough given his offensive talents.

There is a reason they call them "defense" men.

 

[Tripod]

Ghost at worst will finish at a 41 point pace. Not bad for a "down" year.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Not even Hakstok can stop him.

 

[NYCFlyer]

A perennial 50+ point top 4 d man. No reason he can't be a quality PKer too. PKing is even less physical defending than 5v5....more about skating and instincts and stickwork.

But considering Hakstol (and Murphy) treats him as an unreliable, sheltered, bottom pair PP specialist not allowed to play in close games unless behind, who knows if he'll become the player he can potentially be under his tutelage.

Like many discussions it depends on the team and style of pp. Against a heavy team they will easily body him out of the way down low.Ghost is tiny and weak. When we have all the young guys in the lineup in the next few years, imo all will be better on the pk than ghost. Myers,Sanhiem,Provorov Morin and probably Hagg. Against a quick finesse team I think he would do well on the pK and maybe you sub him in.

 

[Rebels57]

A perennial 50+ point top 4 d man. No reason he can't be a quality PKer too. PKing is even less physical defending than 5v5....more about skating and instincts and stickwork.

But considering Hakstol (and Murphy) treats him as an unreliable, sheltered, bottom pair PP specialist not allowed to play in close games unless behind, who knows if he'll become the player he can potentially be under his tutelage.

Ghost will be here long after Hakstol is fired next season. Hopefully the next coach allows him to spread his wings.

 

[Rebels57]

Before his first benching, as has been referenced multiple times to you, Gostisbehere was on pace to match his production from last season. Can't recall his defense looking bad during that stretch...

Hes full of ****. No point in even replying at this point.

 

[deadhead]

You could see Ghost's physical limitations on the holding call he picked up, Provorov would have simply sealed the guy off using good leverage (does it all the time) Ghost grabbed on to try and stop him.

You can love his offensive skills without having to make excuses or deny his defensive limitations, he has the highest GA other than Manning and worst GArel of any defenseman (which accounts for who he plays with).

MacDonald has the best GA and GArel (along with Schultz) on the team, which just shows he may not be pretty but he gets that part of the job done, unfortunately he's an offensive black hole (see MacDonald skate the puck into the O-zone, see him shoot it into the midsection of the nearest defenseman).

And that's why Ghost is glued to the bench when they have a lead in the 3rd period.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

MacDonald has the best GA and GArel (along with Schultz) on the team, which just shows he may not be pretty but he gets that part of the job done

The only thing that shows is that stats can be misleading, or misinterpreted.
He is a turnover machine.
He's garbage at everything except farming.
Fair play to him, he can grow some corn.
But he's **** at hockey the vast majority of the time.

 

[flyersfan187]

It would have been nice to be able to have Ghost play a full year in the AHL to work on the basics of the game. He gave up way too many 2 on 1's this season and while his passing is great he tended to not pass the puck and look for the home run too often when someone else is wide open to keep the puck moving. Those things hopefully he will improve on in the future and turn into a reliable 5v5 defender. He should stay a top PP guy that will be sheltered some 5v5 until he improves more and but you keep him off the PK and let him concentrate on other areas of his game.

 

[Striiker]

So penalties show Ghosts limitations?

OK so then I guess Provorov has the same limitations since they have the same amount of penalty minutes this year? It's not like he got those minutes from fighting majors.

Double standards are fun.

Every kind of player takes penalties, no matter the size, you can't use that to craft a narrative about Ghost.

 

[deadhead]

I just pointed out that a SPECIFIC penalty illustrated the limits placed on Ghost by his size, he can't use his body to shield off a forward in the corner BECAUSE HE'S SMALL.

Provorov makes that play all the time b/c he's 200+ lbs and plays with great anticipation and leverage. When he shields off an opposing player, he's hard to move (harder than Gudas, for example). Ghost physical struggles in those situations, and at 24 years old, he's unlikely to get much stronger.

This is an advantage Friedman will have over Ghost, he's short, but like MV, he's stout, so he can use leverage to handle bigger players, the way Kimmo used to do. Size matters in certain situations.