Phoenix XXVI: Pain in the AZ

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
I am pretty sure at this point there will be hockey in Arizona next season and so on.

How do you figure? Are you optimitic the bonds will sell, or are you expecting the rabiit out of the hat?

The NHL just doesn't look to be bailing on this market. It's part of their grand strategy and pulling out of AZ could create negative momentum for other Southern markets too.

Agreed, but what's the solution for the NHL to remain in Phoenix? It's been years, and there is no owner willing to risk investing in ownership there.
 
Last edited:

PitbulI

Registered User
Dec 22, 2010
415
44
Lets face it. The Coyotes do not have public support. If they did, all the COG would have to do is run a front page cover story like "Save the Coyotes" and point out who to contact and let it grow from there. Instead, you have a few die hard fans but really the rest of Arizona doesn't care.

[mod delete]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

cbcwpg

Registered User
May 18, 2010
20,167
20,603
Between the Pipes
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...es-think-tank-of-game-playing/article1933813/

Glendale councillor Phil Lieberman, who has been in office for 20 years and is one of three opponents (on a council of seven) of the Hulsizer deal, said Mayor Elaine Scruggs has not provided enough information to the public throughout the process and that she is attempting to “stuff this down taxpayers’ throats†because the city has no Plan B.

“I may sue the city in attempt to find out,†Lieberman said.


More lawsuits. :laugh:
 

Retail1LO*

Guest
I saw it as positive for the Coyotes. He said everything is done "except the bonds" which we all know is a big part of it. And, he didn't seem angry at all like some other posters have suggested. He is frustrated that this GI entity has created a cloud over what 2 different law firms have said is a legal and doable deal. I think being this close to keeping the Coyotes in Glendale (what the NHL wants) is what is frustrating.
We want our Coyotes. They are not the Jets. Our Coyotes want to stay. The NHL wants them to stay. The fans want them to stay. Everyone has their reasons why but being hockey fans, no matter what side of the border you're on, should be a good enough reason to get behind the team.
I went to the game last night. OMG, even more signs of life from the fans there. Coyotes fans. Things are turning around, finally.

Your Coyotes are only yours because of another markets failure to perform. Fast forward to the present, and your Coyotes are in the same position. If anything Phoenix is no better or no worse than Winnipeg.

They were the Jets before they were the Coyotes. You want your Coyotes...they want their Jets back. I can't imagine how your desire to keep a team in any way trumps their desire to get their team BACK.

The NHL wants them to stay because they'd rather have a struggling team in Phoenix than a team with any degree of success in Canada. The U.S. audience is what drives this show, and Canadian teams have always been less marketable in the states.

Coyotes want to stay? I'm guessing you didn't see the interview with Bissonnette? LOL http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/03/08/coyotes-bissonnette-thinks-move-to-winnipeg-wouldnt-be-all-bad/

The fans want them to stay? Really? I know you said you were at the game, but I watched it on Center Ice last night, and it was arguably louder in that arena when the Canucks scored than when the Yotes did. I was also hard pressed to see anymore than a handful of people even wearing Coyote jerseys. It looked like they yanked every pedestrian off the street they could find and crammed them in the lower bowl. Were tickets 3 for a buck last night?

And lastly "OMG, even more signs of life..." And it only took how long? Just for a SIGN of life? The point is, if it takes talks of relocation before people notice there's a hockey team in town that doesn't play half bad...it's beyond too late.
 

Ward Cornell

Registered User
Dec 22, 2007
6,390
2,600
Bettman's doing his best to make sure everyone knows who the scapegoat is for this. Let's not forget that.

One thing that ppl have to remember is that GWI hasn't done anything yet.
They've have only talked what they could do.
If it's just because of "talk" that Bettman is getting antsy then maybe this was a shady deal to begin with.
 

Snarky Coyote

Registered User
Sponsor
May 3, 2009
692
211
Now with more snark
Okay, what is a realistic and quick alternative then?

Either the bonds sell in the next 10 days and Glendale takes its chances on a lawsuit that is problably without merit by the GWI and then countersues and hopes for damages or the team moves. I just dont think it will be winnepeg. Now thats just my opinion, I dont have someone like Shoalts that can make up sources "close to the matter" and I am not going to pretend that also. As far as quick .... nothing having to do with this mess has been quick

Just remeber that lots of people would love to buy a portable NHL team. A portable NHL is a lot more valuable, so why when the NHL has been all about making money (ie selling the team so they dont lose a penny) off the Phoenix transaction would they suddenly not want to maximize there profits from a sale? Cause Gary is such a nice guy and they owe Winnepeg?
 

ps241

The Ballad of Ville Bobby
Sponsor
Mar 10, 2010
34,881
31,242
Any chance we can get back to focusing on the sale of this team? This thread had once again become overrun by the same old discussions on Winnipeg and Bettman.

that would be nice but the chances are zero, the way this works Jesse is the fate of the Yotes is not really being decided by the CoG, the NHL, and Matt vs. GWI....its actually going to be decided on HFboards by whom ever wins the argument here!!!........you must have missed the memo :sarcasm:
 

Ludwig Fell Down

Registered User
Feb 19, 2005
3,729
2,480
South Shore, MA
I think that the most important thing we learned in the past couple of days is that neither the NHL nor Hulsizer have any intention of modifying their negotiating position vis-a-vis the lease or the sale of the Coyotes. That has two implications. First, it means that since the GWI is apparently of the opinion that the deal as currently configured is unconstitutional, they don't have any basis for changing their stance. Second, I think that this could be an important talking point for the GWI in their PR battle with the COG, NHL and Hulsizer. They can point to their intransigence as the reason why the GWI has not felt compelled to stand down.

I thought that one of the avenues for making this deal happen was for either Hulsizer or the NHL to alter the terms of the deal somewhat to make it more palatable for the GWI, but that now appears out of the question. Frankly, that is very surprising to me.

I was surprised as well, with all of the speculation over the last couple of days about revising the deal.

Two avenues appear to be closed: MH adding more capital to the deal, and GWI changing their stance.

That leaves only the option: COG selling the bonds despite the legal threat, and I assume that would have to happen this week or next based on the comments from MH and Bettman.

The one item that wasn't made clear last night (from what I could tell) is the status of the bond sale. I have no idea how a private bond sale works. Does COG set the interest rate?
 

bleuet

Guest
I would suggest that there is little financial difference for the NHL between the Coyotes relocating (if it comes to that) to another market, or that market getting a team through expansion.

Either way, the NHL would be receiving approximately $160-180m imo.

But, who buys the Coyotes? The league keeps them?

If I was CoG, I'd go ahead with the bonds to find out. I'm not CoG so..
 

saskganesh

Registered User
Jun 19, 2006
2,368
12
the Annex
Nawww, I don't think so.


I think that under the guise of being "accountable to the taxpayers" they are just piling onto the swelling tea party movement and see this as an easy victory that will get them wide spread attention and in some way shape or from promotions.

We already have the CRTC........:shakehead

CRTC is an arm's length government agency. Not the same.

The equivalent would be the Canadian Taxpayer's Federation (who are backed up intellectually by the Fraser Institute thinktank)
 

bleuet

Guest
I am sorry, MH says himself he is fed up with all this. This gotta move forward now or never.
 

Jesus Christ Horburn

Registered User
Aug 22, 2008
13,942
1
Phil Lieberman was just interviewed on Winnipeg radio station CJOB and made a few points:

-Bettman met with the COG yesterday and wanted COG to "raise" an additional 40 million for Hulsizer to buy the team (I'm guessing to cover the losses for this year)
-Lieberman shot down the idea. He said he's more interested in protecting the people of Glendale than the Coyotes
-He believes that neither COG or GWI will ultimately file lawsuits
-He believes no one will buy the bonds because of the lingering threat of the lawsuit.
 

AllByDesign

Who's this ABD guy??
Mar 17, 2010
2,317
0
Location, Location!
Whether you like them or not, Goldwater IS providing a public service. I'm FAR from a right winger, but I wish we had the equivalent here in BC.

You do. You have the Fraser Institute. Not as active in the courtroom as GW, but similar goals and philosophies. We also have the Canadian Taxpayers Federation on a national level.

That's not the league's call. As part of the support league management gives to every one of its teams, it backs whatever deals they try to negotiate. COG and MH agreed to this deal, so the league backs it, however they can.

You are correct it isn't the leagues responsibility to be concerned with what is good for the taxpayers. I must state that Bettman's view on the deal and his opinion of the impact of those taxpayers is one-sided.

But, Bettman wants Winnipeg to have a team so should Glendale fail to come through, it will. It is just sad that he won't get any credit for it. We'll see how many people give credit where it is due when the time comes, but the behavior here, this attitude that because Bettman tries to help a currently existing franchise, it means he hates Canada or other BS, it doesn't bode well for that.

You might be surprised.

I think you're starting to get the point now. It appears once again I must remind people that membership in the NHL is not a god-given right, not for a city or any of the fans in said city. For the league's members, Winnipeg doesn't do squat. It's too small a market to significantly impact CBC deals, will do nothing but reduce US TV deals, its short term bump will raise costs for everyone else, and the fact it already failed once makes it a leery chance in the future should the CAD crash again and stands a very good chance of being a welfare recipient long before that point.

I believe a safe argument could be made that adding Winnipeg would have a similar impact to the CBC as an "Edmonton" or "Calgary" adds.


Now that I am through with all of that.

It's nice to see all of the new people who have decided to come to the party. Some of you may remember that once upon a time ago, I stated that at 9% I would be willing to spend my own money on "Coyote Bonds". After the offer memorandum was put forth I made a complete flip-flop on my initial statement. I will now share why with you.

In the press conference, Mr. Bettman asserted that if not for the GW interference the Bonds would have easily sold easily. I say "nay-nay". My flip flop was not based upon the threat of litigation. My flip-flop was solely based on the business plan in the outline of how the Bonds were to be serviced. The business plan is folly. I am not a big player investor, but with what I do invest in, I take an active role. Some choose to leave it up to their planner and hope for the best. I want to look at the prospectus before I commit. What this Bond offering is faced with is an immediate servicing shortfall. Why would I lend my money to a business plan that from the outset, shows that revenues will not be sufficient to repay the loan? The only way that Glendale shows that they can make good on their loan is by attaching tax revenues. I have a problem with this as well. Not for the tax payer, but for the integrity of the group charged with devloping their business plan. I'll give you an example.

Mr. Chin runs a successful Chinese take out restaraunt. He would like to open a Pizzaria to better take control of the "take-out food" market. Mr. Chin is looking to finance 2/3rds of this venture and is looking for $500,000 start up capital. I look at Mr. Chin's business plan, and his intent is to pay back the loan over a 10 year span with a 7% interest rate. His forecasts show that after costs he projects to be short about $1,000.00 each month after servicing the debt. Of course as the business grows, it shows a decreasing shortfall to break-even by the end of the term. To make it work he pledges revenue from his Chinese food restaraunt to cover the shortfalls.

I look at the numbers and think at first glance, well as long as he is pledging revenue I stand to receive my loan and interest back. Ater letting it all sink in I start to wonder... why is Mr. Chin getting into the Pizza Business? At the end of the day I don't invest in Mr. Chin. It is a bad investment for me, and a bad investment for Mr. Chin.

This is not designed to be akin to the Coyotes Parking in parallel, but a simplistic breakdown of the structure of the business plan. If the numbers are designed for failure, failure will follow. My instinct is that if GW wasn't involved here, Glendale would be hard pressed to sell these bonds. I know there are valid argument to the contrary, and I don't discount that. We should have a prospective from someone who invests and see if they would put their own cash into the deal. I know I wouldn't.
 

RECCE

The Dog House
Apr 29, 2010
3,203
0
Margaritaville
And....what's the "big news"? :)

I'll tell ya when in interview is over, can't read minds. :sarcasm:

EDIT
Basically stating that they believe the deal is in violation, the CoG still dragging their feet.

CoG gave additional 600 pages of doc's.

"Looks like classic corporate welfare to us (GWI)"


Sounds like GWI standing firm,
 
Last edited:

Mr. Canucklehead

Kitimat Canuck
Dec 14, 2002
40,335
30,679
Kitimat, BC
Just a quick reminder to everyone - I know that the fate of Phoenix/the hopes of Winnipeg are somewhat intertwined, but let's try to keep Winnipeg's pros and cons as an NHL location contained to the TNSE thread for now. When/if a transaction is completed involving Coyotes to Winnipeg, if it comes to that, it will be more appropriate for this thread.

But for the moment, let's keep the discussion related to the Coyotes/COG/GWI.
 

Alberta Yote

Owns the Yotes
Dec 31, 2004
14,435
1,212
In your kitchen
I'll tell ya when in interview is over, can't read minds. :sarcasm:

EDIT
Basically stating that they believe the deal is in violation, the CoG still dragging their feet.

CoG gave additional 600 pages of doc's.

"Looks like classic corporate welfare to us (GIW)"
So the "big news" is that there is no new news. Still in a stand off. What a surprise.
 

MaskedSonja

Registered User
Feb 3, 2007
6,546
84
Formerly Tinalera
I'll tell ya when in interview is over, can't read minds. :sarcasm:

EDIT
Basically stating that they believe the deal is in violation, the CoG still dragging their feet.

CoG gave additional 600 pages of doc's.

"Looks like classic corporate welfare to us (GIW)"

So noting really big to us-but "big news" to get the radio listeners to tune in on the dial....
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad