Phoenix XXIX: What's the next act? I'm tired of the dog & pony show

[RAgIn]

Why all the public statements from MH? What other remedies could the NHL have? Maybe another owner?

Hulsizer and Reinsdorf tag-team ownership. Ice Edge would be the manager. Finding a nickname would be tricky. The gaurantors?

 

[ps241]

wow soon to be 1000 posts in a little over 2 days (cue the Killion 48 hours reference)

is it just me or are we out of control? is there some group therapy we can register for

 

[crazed323]

The CoG simply cannot afford to drag this out into a lawsuit, as it'll cost them the team in the process.

Both are trying to play the best interest card, only the elected officials have been sincere about it, whereas Goldwater has been saying one thing and forcing interest rates up at the same time.



Their city council has changed in the past 8 years.

Then those who were not on council then need not worry. With your assertion you would think the whole city council has changed since. The biggest proponent of this deal has been Mayor Scruggs. I wonder why? Because it was her dog and pony show to begin with. To see this fail is to see the end of her illustrious Mayoral career. Count it.

 

[Dado]

If the elected representatives felt that this was simply a way to spend 2x dollars to make X dollars, then they wouldn't do it.

Bread and circuses, mate, bread and circuses.

Your contention above runs contrary to the roughly 400 years of history N.A. has had with democracy.

 

[RAgIn]

The CoG simply cannot afford to drag this out into a lawsuit, as it'll cost them the team in the process.

Both are trying to play the best interest card, only the elected officials have been sincere about it, whereas Goldwater has been saying one thing and forcing interest rates up at the same time.

I agree, the NHL will likely bail. How do you know the COG has been sincere? Im speechless.

 

[seanlinden]

Bread and circuses, mate, bread and circuses.

Your contention above runs contrary to the roughly 400 years of history N.A. has had with democracy.

My contention is that the CoG is doing what they think is best for the CoG, exactly what democracy is designed to do.

I agree, the NHL will likely bail. How do you know the COG has been sincere? Im speechless.

Because their actions have been workign towards putting the best possible deal on the table that keeps the lifeblood of a major part of their city in place.

 

[Grumpz]

Fiscally, you are probably correct in your assumptions. However from a legal perspective you are incorrect.

In the scenario you described above, the transaction between CoG and Company X is $50M for item Y. How CoG obtains obtains the $50M to purchase item Y is irrelevant to the application of the gift clause. For example, in MH's case, he is not receiving the bond interest, the bond buyers are. All MH is receiving is the $100M.

GWI touts the total cost of the bonds as means to justify their position from a PR standpoint. It's likely that MH's concession (and once we learn the true detail of its structure) would be enough to withstand a legal challenge from GWI. However GWI has been able to block the deal without a formal legal challenge, and will continue to do so until the deal closes or the deal collapses.

A couple of the self-proclaimed lawyers on the boards have been vetted as such by the mods, so put aside your bias and listen to their insights as it is valuable and best of all - free to all of us on the boards.[/QUOTE]


How am I being biased? I've got lawyers stating one thing, and members of a forum who do NOT practice law in Arizona stating another. So I asked the question with NO bias at all.

 

[Donwood]

with all due respect for yote fans, keeping in mind imo its 50/50 whether they move, but Maloney (coyote GM) said hes falling behind other teams in terms of signing players bc he doesn't know where they will be next year and Aucoin stated its finally starting to affect players and there families. At what point does TNSE step in and make it known that it is in their best interests to have a team that isn't totally torn apart by the time they arrive here. Or does TNSE just sit back and let the NHL and Glendale make a mess of this team? The NHL won't say anything until all home games are played, in order to cover some losses. So we sit by and let the NHL make a few more bucks at the expense of the team that we have been waiting 16 years for...? I for one am not "just happy to be here" TSNE needs to grow some balls, without pulling a Ballsile... lastly I would rather not have a NHL team in WPG if it moves here only to lose the whole time then move after everyone gets sick of losing.

I'd love to know what has been said/promised by the league to TNSE.
Bettman really can't afford to have True North walk away with 2 shaky franchises.
One would think that gives them some clout. At the very least i would think True North could put on a deadline such as they need an answer by no later then May 1.

 

[RECCE]

If this team bails....I hope it isn't to Winnipeg.

Im with you on this one Jeff , although I think the Peg is the mandate if this falls through.

So where do you's think it should go to?

 

[Kismet]

Both are trying to play the best interest card, only the elected officials have been sincere about it, whereas Goldwater has been saying one thing and forcing interest rates up at the same time.

You have repeatedly suggested that it is only the voice of elected officials that matters. Given that, what weight do you give to these comments from March 15:

Hulsizer could not immediately be reached for comment but he has argued in the past that Glendale will get fair value for its payment over the life of the lease.

Lieberman does not agree. He says the city is already using excise taxes, which were also pledged to be used for bond payments if there were any shortfalls in parking revenue, to cover shortfalls in sales taxes for the debt on Jobing.com Arena. The city is also facing the same problem in covering the debt for a spring-training facility built for the use of major-league baseball teams.

Lieberman said the Coyotes’ arena only provided $5.1-million last year to cover the $13.2-million annual debt service on it. The rest came from excise taxes.

“There is no possible way parking [revenue] can pay for [the bonds],†Lieberman said. “We can’t afford it.â€

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...uit-winnipeg-watching-closely/article1943436/

What of the 3/7 that voted against the deal? Certainly Ol' Phil is the extreme...but if the elected officials truly represent the views of the people, at 3 opposed - this is no slam dunk.

 

[Confucius]

Then those who were not on council then need not worry. With your assertion you would think the whole city council has changed since. The biggest proponent of this deal has been Mayor Scruggs. I wonder why? Because it was her dog and pony show to begin with. To see this fail is to see the end of her illustrious Mayoral career. Count it.

Well, give a woman enough rope...
Thinking about the MH letter...........Give a man enough rope.........

Indeed it was an appropriate YT link

 

[RAgIn]

My contention is that the CoG is doing what they think is best for the CoG, exactly what democracy is designed to do.

Because their actions have been workign towards putting the best possible deal on the table that keeps the lifeblood of a major part of their city in place.

Might be the best possible deal, but that doesn't make it legal. I agree, they've been trying to climb an uphill battle since day 1, however, sometimes you have to learn to give up and cocede. Can't win em' all. It seems like it will come to the NHL's actions.

 

[GSC2k2*]

I skimmed through the last 1000 posts. This is no longer about the Business of Hockey. The educated opinions expressed by unbiased observers have been replaced by monotonous arguments between two fan bases hopelessly promoting their agenda. Did all of the other outlets for these mindless, factually void rants disappear? Is that why all of this imprudence has ended up here on the Business of Hockey?

I agree.

Well, I DID try to drum up some substantive discussion by providing an analysis of Hulsizer's letter, but it got drowned out by competing analyses of Hulsizer's grammar, spelling and choice of fax machines.

You might go back there and check that out, and we could at least discuss that.

 

[Larabee]

I'd love to know what has been said/promised by the league to TNSE.
Bettman really can't afford to have True North walk away with 2 shaky franchises.
One would think that gives them some clout. At the very least i would think True North could put on a deadline such as they need an answer by no later then May 1.

They already have... the deadline is mid April. By that time, Chipman says they need to commit to their current business partners... namely the Vancouver Canucks and the AHL.

 

[Navin RJ]

I'd love to know what has been said/promised by the league to TNSE.
Bettman really can't afford to have True North walk away with 2 shaky franchises.
One would think that gives them some clout. At the very least i would think True North could put on a deadline such as they need an answer by no later then May 1.

No doubt in my mind that WPG is still just a last resort senario for the NHL, and it doesn't sit well with me to start a franchise in that environment, but one part of me wants it so bad i couldnt care less how the team gets here

 

[Killion]

wow soon to be 1000 posts in a little over 2 days (cue the Killion 48 hours reference) is it just me or are we out of control? is there some group therapy we can register for

I dont watch that one ps241. But your right. Ive never seen the like of this. Phenomenal volumes. Surreal. On a PPC basis Google would need an office floor full of accountants & chad checkers to stay on top it. The sites gonna crash.

 

[crazed323]

I would think that with only 2 new members to the city council they all have a vested interest in not looking a fool. Below are the years that they were elected. The westgate fiasco was built in 2003. Pulled all of these dates from COG website.


Mayor Scruggs - 1993 - present
Yvonne J. Knaack - 2006 -present
Manny Martinez - 1996 - present
Phil Lieberman - 1992 - present
Norma Alvarez - 2010 - present
Vice Mayor Steven Frate - 2000 - present
Joyce Clark 1992-1996 elected again in 2000 - present

City Manager Ed Beasely - 2002- present


Collectively the dog and pony show. Count it

 

[Jack Bauer]

My contention is that the CoG is doing what they think is best for the CoG, exactly what democracy is designed to do.



Because their actions have been workign towards putting the best possible deal on the table that keeps the lifeblood of a major part of their city in place.

How is keeping an NHL team that has never....EVER.....even broke even a good deal for tax pay......actually....never mind, you're actually trying to convince people that politicans are acting in the publics best interest showing your lack of even the most common sense.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Well I'll try to reply maturely, something you've failed to do.

Awwww....that's cute.

If the elected representatives felt that this was simply a way to spend 2x dollars to make X dollars, then they wouldn't do it. They are privy to much more information than you or I and feel that it's best to spend X dollars now to make Y dollars over time, where the present value of Y is greater than X.

Your blind faith in your elected representatives is amazing. Giving them a free pass to spend freely without any regard for the Arizona Constitution. It is really impressive.

Goldwater is also acting outside of the taxpayers best interest and in an illegal fashion. Their opinion on something is far from credible.

Not allowing the government to purchase something it already owns....or permit a private business to purchase something using the city's credit....give out taxpayer gifts, etc. isn't in the best interest of taxpayers?
Why is their opinion "far from credible"? It seems credible enough that investors are buying it....also seems credible enough to cause great concern to Hulsizer, Glendale & the NHL.
How are they doing anything in an illegal fashion? Wouldn't these wise people in the City of Glendale (that you have propped up to do everything that is in the best interest of the taxpayer at all times) file a lawsuit against Goldwater if that was the case??

Then why are you posting here? Do you really want to see Phoenix lose it's team? Do you really want to see some rogue 3rd party get in the way of a good deal for all sides?
Governments should be allowed to do what is in the best interest of the citizens unless the law prevents them from doing so... but again, that's 100% irrelevant to the discussion at hand, as whether or not they'd be breaking the law is highly debatable at best.

That is 100% irrelevant to the discussion?!?! It IS the discussion. You give so much credit to the City Council of Glendale that they would only ever make the right decision...and that they know more than us so obviously they know what they are doing and are making the right/best decision. But you simultaneously feel Goldwater is full of mindless people that can't tie their shoes and their claim of this deal violating Arizona law is "highly debatable at best".
If it was highly debatable at best....investors wouldn't even bother to take notice of Goldwater's rumblings.

Again....Leafs revenues...tens of millions a year to Glendale....a mere 48 laws need to be broken. Good deal?

Your refusal to answer this very simple question is quite funny. It is hard to say for you isn't it? To admit that the government shouldn't be permitted to break the law in an effort to minimize the financial damages their previous decisions may eventually cause.

 

[Donwood]

They already have... the deadline is mid April. By that time, Chipman says they need to commit to their current business partners... namely the Vancouver Canucks and the AHL.

I've only seen speculation before, not a direct quote, Thanks.

 

[Jarqui]

I might have missed this but I looked a few pages back and did not see it:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...phoenix-coyotes-buyer-guarantee-glendale.html

What is the guarantee?

It guarantees Glendale's direct revenue, most based on hockey-game attendance, would meet annual projections up to a set amount. Otherwise, Hulsizer's team said it would make up any shortfalls to the city every five years, up to a total of $75 million in today's dollars or over the 30-year lease.

The annual projections would include streams of revenue going directly to Glendale, such as team rent, ticket surcharges, shared money if the team makes a profit and parking fees.

Hulsizer also promised to pay Glendale $25 million up front that the city had pledged to pay the NHL this season to cover team and arena losses.

"We are in the process of revising the lease with the city of Glendale to include a schedule of targeted revenue," said Jay Coppoletta, an attorney for Hulsizer.
...
Why make the guarantee?

Hulsizer is trying to move forward the deal, which has stalled as the city experiences difficulty selling bonds because of Goldwater's threat it will sue.

Hulsizer wants to show Goldwater that Glendale would receive benefits from the deal worth about as much as, or more than, the city's payments. Goldwater argues that's a must for the deal to be legal.

Hulsizer said the guarantee, as well as consultant studies projecting the benefits Glendale would receive from keeping the Coyotes, makes the deal legally airtight.

A personal guarantee?

Hulsizer in a letter to Goldwater said his Delaware limited liability company, Arizona Hockey Holdings, would be responsible for any shortfall.

Goldwater contends Glendale taxpayers have no protection should the team later be put into bankruptcy. Glendale representatives counter that the lease contains strong language to prevent Hulsizer from breaking terms by declaring bankruptcy.t

 

[crazed323]

They already have... the deadline is mid April. By that time, Chipman says they need to commit to their current business partners... namely the Vancouver Canucks and the AHL.

Got a link? Or a source?

 

[RAgIn]

I might have missed this but I looked a few pages back and did not see it:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/artic...phoenix-coyotes-buyer-guarantee-glendale.html

I knew of it, but I was waiting for the new thread

 

[LeftCoast]

Well, I DID try to drum up some substantive discussion by providing an analysis of Hulsizer's letter, but it got drowned out by competing analyses of Hulsizer's grammar, spelling and choice of fax machines.

You might go back there and check that out, and we could at least discuss that.

What was your take on the letter?

When MH announced that he had sent a letter to the Goldwater Institute and CoG stating that he would guarantee the losses from parking, I figured that would pretty much put this thing to bed, but when I saw the letter, I was like - is this a joke?

My take on the letter was similar to Goldwater's.

• The $25 million he is "giving" back to the city was money that they put up a year ago to cover the losses if the sale couldn't compete.
  
• The letter is general and not very specific, but it DOESN'T say that he will cover annual parking revenue shortfalls.
  
• It does seem to imply that all he is guaranteeing is that all of the revenues that are due the city as a result of the deal (rent, City Surcharge, Arena Recovery fees and parking) will total $75M over the next 30 years.
  
• It appears that he is looking to guarantee the returns on the back end of the deal, as in 30 years from now. Using the 6% (most optimistic) discount rate, that $75M is only worth $43M.

Or is there more to this and the letter was only a cover letter on a more specific and detailed proposal.

 

[LadyStanley]

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