Phoenix, worst case scenario

[Killion]

If Balsillie is done with the NHL, then wouldn't you think he'd be offering opinions and comments every now and then? Surely he's been sought by the media for such comments.

I think he's got bigger fish to fry right about now HT. He's also extremely reclusive when it comes to making public comments of any kind regarding the NHL or team acquisitions. Always controlled & scripted. Apparently he will talk candidly but only if its off the record, the tapes & mikes turned off; paper & pens put away; anonymously. Frankly, I just cant imagine any scenario over the next 12mnths that would see the NHL pulling a 180, giving up the Ghost & reversing course in selling the franchise to JB after all thats been wrought, written & said. They have other options, as I believe that waiting in the wings are very likely several other parties who can and likely will be stepping out of the shadows championing Hamilton (and likely elsewhere) should the Coyotes continue to twist in the wind, some Im sure with business cards on Gary Bettmans desk, numbers inserted into his rolodex....

 

[Canadiens1958]

Realignment

I think he's got bigger fish to fry right about now HT. He's also extremely reclusive when it comes to making public comments of any kind regarding the NHL or team acquisitions. Always controlled & scripted. Apparently he will talk candidly but only if its off the record, the tapes & mikes turned off; paper & pens put away; anonymously. Frankly, I just cant imagine any scenario over the next 12mnths that would see the NHL pulling a 180, giving up the Ghost & reversing course in selling the franchise to JB after all thats been wrought, written & said. They have other options, as I believe that waiting in the wings are very likely several other parties who can and likely will be stepping out of the shadows championing Hamilton (and likely elsewhere) should the Coyotes continue to twist in the wind, some Im sure with business cards on Gary Bettmans desk, numbers inserted into his rolodex....

Realignment. Opportunity to put a new coat of paint on the mistakes during Bettman's reign to date while creating openings in GTA / Southern Ontario.

 

[MoreOrr]

Realignment. Opportunity to put a new coat of paint on the mistakes during Bettman's reign to date while creating openings in GTA / Southern Ontario.

If I put my faith in the opinion of someone who blames Bettman for everything, my faith would be very misguided... As is your opinion that Bettman is responsible for everything you think he is.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

... I believe that waiting in the wings are very likely several other parties who can and likely will be stepping out of the shadows championing Hamilton ...

I'm sure a bidding war for the lucrative Hamilton/southern Ontario market would be a nice change for the GB and the BOG.

Works for me too, Balsillie or no Balsillie.

Who knows, maybe he'd be welcome as a minority partner.

 

[Killion]

Realignment. Opportunity to put a new coat of paint on the mistakes during Bettman's reign to date while creating openings in GTA / Southern Ontario.

Well, to date C58 it would appear that most of the members of the NHL are rather enamored with Mr. Bettman. Under his watch, revenues have gone through the roof, avg. franchise values increased exponentially, a new broadcast deal. He over-saw their pre-planned expansions, ushered in an era of so called cost-certainty. I dont believe there will be any "admission" of "mistakes" having been made, revisionist history perhaps, as they all walk in lock-step into the 21st century. As per one of your earlier posts, there is no question that the issue of Southern Ontario needs to be addressed, and soon. I cant help but speculate that with the change in ownership pending in Toronto; the new addition in Buffalo, the problems elsewhere & relo's a very real possibility (despite Mr.Bettmans remonstrations to the opposite that Atlanta was a "one-off") that "realignment" is a port within site. Though we all bemoan the lack of transparency in the leagues dealings, from a strictly reactive & organic perspective I cant see them growing or going in any other direction.

 

[Killion]

:Who knows, maybe he'd be welcome as a minority partner.

Perhaps, though I think its gone beyond personal & even in that pursuit he'd be rejected and likely run the risk of having the majority partner rejected. Guilt through Association. A man known for the company he keeps. Thats one of Jims' biggest flaws; permitting Richard Rodier to run wild with what can only be described as tortious interference in Nashvile in particular. Very lucky he wasnt sued right down to his dentures over that one. Craig Leipold can be a Viper.

However, to get back on topic, if RIMS' able to successfully launch its new product & re-gain its value, even minimally, then Id see his role as more of a "partner" to the NHL in terms of league wide sponsorships, which quite honestly is a role I think he's quite enjoying. One can take as much pride & place of importance in that as one can in team ownership, though you'll never have your name inscribed on the Stanley Cup. Still, maybe he could sponsor a Bobby Orr / Blackberry Award or some other such award if it be immortality that so many overachievers seem to seek no?.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Balance

Well, to date C58 it would appear that most of the members of the NHL are rather enamored with Mr. Bettman. Under his watch, revenues have gone through the roof, avg. franchise values increased exponentially, a new broadcast deal. He over-saw their pre-planned expansions, ushered in an era of so called cost-certainty. I dont believe there will be any "admission" of "mistakes" having been made, revisionist history perhaps, as they all walk in lock-step into the 21st century. As per one of your earlier posts, there is no question that the issue of Southern Ontario needs to be addressed, and soon. I cant help but speculate that with the change in ownership pending in Toronto; the new addition in Buffalo, the problems elsewhere & relo's a very real possibility (despite Mr.Bettmans remonstrations to the opposite that Atlanta was a "one-off") that "realignment" is a port within site. Though we all bemoan the lack of transparency in the leagues dealings, from a strictly reactive & organic perspective I cant see them growing or going in any other direction.

On balance Gary Bettman has done an excellent job. Never claimed otherwise.

However the mistakes that have been made get painted over and the issues get redefined. Colin Campbell takes one for the team. Being way behind the NFL re concussions and the resulting equipment issues gets spun into taking the time to get it right even though Don Cherry figured it out years ago.

Realignment addresses other issues. Returning to Canada from the deep south requires as much, Winnipeg, strong possibility in Quebec.. Also the revenue potential from an expansion or relocation to the GTA / Southern Ontario market needs an opening that presently does not exist.

Ultimate irony is that Quebecor may become its own biggest competitor for the franchise in Quebec City.

 

[Killion]

If I put my faith in the opinion of someone who blames Bettman for everything, my faith would be very misguided... As is your opinion that Bettman is responsible for everything you think he is.

Dont think that particular poster meant to infer GB was the 2nd coming of Beelzebub #4. Quite frankly, and ya, Im willing to defend him, I think Bettmans actually done a pretty decent job of managing the mess he inherited from Stein, Ziegler & Campbell, and by rote, Eagleson.

On balance Gary Bettman has done an excellent job. Never claimed otherwise.... However the mistakes that have been made get painted over....

I agree. Time to turn the Etch-A-Sketch upside down, shake the sand from its dormancy; start anew. Might even change the players on my circa 1962 Topps TableTop hockey game from Torointo vs.Montreal to a couple of the newer teams, say, Oakland & Kansas City?. Always liked that Bart Crashley fella,

 

[uhlaw97]

Hamilton might be the only option for the coyotes right now .

With the bad economy in the USA. we might not see teams in Kansas City , Houston , Portland & Seattle for a whille until the USA. economy turns around.

How do you figure that? Houston, unlike Hamilton has a relatively new, 18,000 seat arena READY TO GO...with no need for upgrades!!!

Not only that, but with a metro area population of around 6 million, it represents a MUCH larger market than Hamilton would sans Toronto, and plus, Houston doesn't have a nearby rival city that would resent intrusion into their market.

I think that you're over-estimating Hamilton's case. When you consider arena and market, Houston currently has the edge over any American city, and Hamilton or Quebec. Even in a bad economy, an area as large a the Houston metro will have plenty of people willing to shell out the dough to see a game.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Expansion Franchise

How do you figure that? Houston, unlike Hamilton has a relatively new, 18,000 seat arena READY TO GO...with no need for upgrades!!!

Not only that, but with a metro area population of around 6 million, it represents a MUCH larger market than Hamilton would sans Toronto, and plus, Houston doesn't have a nearby rival city that would resent intrusion into their market.

I think that you're over-estimating Hamilton's case. When you consider arena and market, Houston currently has the edge over any American city, and Hamilton or Quebec. Even in a bad economy, an area as large a the Houston metro will have plenty of people willing to shell out the dough to see a game.

All well and good.

How much would anyone in Houston be willing to pay for an NHL expansion franchise?

Quebecor with Pierre Karl Pelodeau lost out on the Canadiens when Gillette, sale price was well over $500,000 Million:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/06/20/sp-hockey-canadiens-sale.html

A second team into the GTA / southern Ontario market as an expansion franchise would see groups ready to step up with a minimum of $500.000 Million.

Quebecor having undergone a massive media services expansion in the province of Quebec needs a "Star Product" to drive contact and generate eyeballs. Effectively they are competing with themselves for the Quebec City market. and would pay more for an expansion franchise right away then for Phoenix or another distressed US based team down the road.

If Houston wants an NHL team then they have to step-up for an expansion framchise like the Canadian interests would. If they want a distressed franchise same considerations apply.

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

I think that you're over-estimating Hamilton's case. When you consider arena and market, Houston currently has the edge over any American city, and Hamilton or Quebec. Even in a bad economy, an area as large a the Houston metro will have plenty of people willing to shell out the dough to see a game.

The league, in determining a potential relocation fee, cited studies conducted for the NHL by the Barrett Sports Group and Sports Value Consulting.

The Barrett study concludes that the franchise in Hamilton would be worth $261.8 million to $279.8 million. Sports Value's figure was a whopping $315 million.

Meanwhile, Barrett said the Coyotes in Glendale would be worth $163 million to $176 million and Sports Value places the figure at $120 million.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4453259

the NHL entered in court that a Hamilton team would be the league's fifth-most valuable franchise.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326830

Could the same be said about the NHL in Houston?

 

[bacon25]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=4453259


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=326830

Could the same be said about the NHL in Houston?

Houston could work and do well, I could see Florida Panthers moving here. Are there any potential owners in Houston willing to buy a team?

 

[uhlaw97]

Billionaire Les Alexander, current owner of the Houston Rockets, and part owner of 18,000 seat Toyota Center, is the logical first choice to own an NHL team.

In the past, he has attempted to buy and relocate both the Penguins and the Edmonton Oilers to Houston.

That's why it's interesting that this exhibition game is being played in Reliant Stadium instead of the Toyota Center. That may be an indication that the NHL is trying to advertise the Coyotes to other possible Houston buyers, such as billionaire Bob McNair, current owner of the NFL Houston Texans, which play in Reliant. It'll be interesting to see whether or not that NFL stadium can be configured for hockey easily.

If either Bob McNair or Chuck Watson (current billionaire part-owner of the AHL Houston Aeros) were to buy the team, then a hockey-only arena might be in order, or pehaps Reliant could be configured for hockey, since Les Alexander would be able to extract rent from any other owner that might want his team to play in the Toyota Center.

 

[berklon]

I think that you're over-estimating Hamilton's case. When you consider arena and market, Houston currently has the edge over any American city, and Hamilton or Quebec. Even in a bad economy, an area as large a the Houston metro will have plenty of people willing to shell out the dough to see a game.

I think you're severly under-estimating the Hamilton/Southern-Ontario market for hockey. Did you see what happened in Winnipeg? Think bigger than that. You see that Toronto Maple Leaf team down the highway from Hamilton? They suck. They've sucked for 40+ years, and they will continue to suck for a very long time. Not doing too shabby financially, huh? Southern Ontario has the population and the love of hockey. It's pretty much the hockey capital of the world.

With that said, I think Houston would do decently to support a team. I'd like to see a team from one of those horrible markets move there.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Well, to date C58 it would appear that most of the members of the NHL are rather enamored with Mr. Bettman. Under his watch, revenues have gone through the roof, avg. franchise values increased exponentially, a new broadcast deal. He over-saw their pre-planned expansions, ushered in an era of so called cost-certainty. I dont believe there will be any "admission" of "mistakes" having been made, revisionist history perhaps, as they all walk in lock-step into the 21st century. As per one of your earlier posts, there is no question that the issue of Southern Ontario needs to be addressed, and soon. I cant help but speculate that with the change in ownership pending in Toronto; the new addition in Buffalo, the problems elsewhere & relo's a very real possibility (despite Mr.Bettmans remonstrations to the opposite that Atlanta was a "one-off") that "realignment" is a port within site. Though we all bemoan the lack of transparency in the leagues dealings, from a strictly reactive & organic perspective I cant see them growing or going in any other direction.

Average franchise values have grown huh? Seems Tampa was sold for a bag of chips....Phoenix can't sell....and Atlanta had to sell to people that are moving the team. How exactly does that make values higher? For almost half the league I'd say their value is that of an expansion franchise.

 

[BuffaloAZ]

Not sure if this is the right place for this link, I miss seeing the roman numerals!

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...0110624phoenix-coyotes-glendale-nhl-deal.html

It seems to me that COG is ok waiting until after their summer break to get something done. I guess they still don't see the urgency.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Value

Average franchise values have grown huh? Seems Tampa was sold for a bag of chips....Phoenix can't sell....and Atlanta had to sell to people that are moving the team. How exactly does that make values higher? For almost half the league I'd say their value is that of an expansion franchise.

And what would that specific value be? Especially when compared to the last expansion fee that teams like Columbus and Nashville paid which from memory was in the $80,000 Million range.

 

[Jeffrey93]

And what would that specific value be? Especially when compared to the last expansion fee that teams like Columbus and Nashville paid which from memory was in the $80,000 Million range.

I think you are right. I'm not sure what you are asking though....

 

[cbcwpg]

Not sure if this is the right place for this link, I miss seeing the roman numerals!

http://www.azcentral.com/community/...0110624phoenix-coyotes-glendale-nhl-deal.html

It seems to me that COG is ok waiting until after their summer break to get something done. I guess they still don't see the urgency.

They just bought themselves another year. Scruggs will be putting her feet up on the table and worry about this next year. The CoG won't consider this urgent until March 2012.

"We Have All the Time in the World" ... James Bond

 

[Canadiens1958]

ValueII

I think you are right. I'm not sure what you are asking though....

Asking a very basic question. What is the value of the NHL teams given the price tag of the last expansion? Certainly more than half are worth more than the baseline price of $80,000 Million.

 

[Killion]

Average franchise values have grown huh? Seems Tampa was sold for a bag of chips....Phoenix can't sell....and Atlanta had to sell to people that are moving the team. How exactly does that make values higher? For almost half the league I'd say their value is that of an expansion franchise.

When Gary Bettman was appointed Commissioner in 1994, average franchise values were around $50M. By 2000, $80M+, by 2011 the average is $200M. The "actual value" in terms of "what is someone willing to pay" in any given market wildly divergent. Toronto; $500M. Montreal; $500M. Vancouver; $200M. Winnipeg; $110M + a $60M relo fee. Phoenix; ?????

 

[Mungman]

When Gary Bettman was appointed Commissioner in 1994, average franchise values were around $50M. By 2000, $80M+, by 2011 the average is $200M. The "actual value" in terms of "what is someone willing to pay" in any given market wildly divergent. Toronto; $500M. Montreal; $500M. Vancouver; $200M. Winnipeg; $110M + a $60M relo fee. Phoenix; ?????

Bag of chips with the promise of a coupon for a bag of chips in return?

 

[Hamilton Tigers]

Ketchup chips?

 

[Ciao]

When Gary Bettman was appointed Commissioner in 1994, average franchise values were around $50M. By 2000, $80M+, by 2011 the average is $200M. The "actual value" in terms of "what is someone willing to pay" in any given market wildly divergent. Toronto; $500M. Montreal; $500M. Vancouver; $200M. Winnipeg; $110M + a $60M relo fee. Phoenix; ?????

Phoenix? It's like selling a 12-year-old car that needs repairs that exceed the value of the car. You mihgt need to pay someone to tow it away.

How much would someone pay for the privilege of absorbing ongoing losses?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Profits

Phoenix? It's like selling a 12-year-old car that needs repairs that exceed the value of the car. You mihgt need to pay someone to tow it away.

How much would someone pay for the privilege of absorbing ongoing losses?

Issue is not the loses in Phoenix. Leveraging Phoenix to generate a greater franchise fee, either expansion or relocation for GTA / Southern Ontario, Quebec City with a few other Canadian cities on the horizon if the Winnipeg move proves to be even a modest success.