Phoenix, worst case scenario

Grudy0

Registered User
Mar 16, 2011
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Maryland
Do some Google mining and tell me how well pre-season games were received in:
- Phoenix
- Nashville
- Atlanta
- Miami
- Raleigh
- San Jose
- Anaheim
- Los Angeles
- Columbus
- Dallas
- Tampa Bay

And any other similar markets. Go show me how these markets were "tested" and how well they did.

Bogus logic here. Pre-season neutral site locations mean absolutely nothing. This is actually the "growing the game"....Gary took it to a whole new level and started awarding...NO!!...not pre-season games....but FRANCHISES to locations that would have been on the "Pre-Season Game Radar".
Well then let's try this for extra credit, shall we?

The NHL's Board of Governors awards expansion franchises, and also approves franchise relocations. Not Gary Bettman. However, let's also simply "pile on" with the assumption that Mr. Bettman was responsible...

From the Sun-Sentinel.com, in an article dated 18 June, 1997:
That's because if the league's plan to expand to Nashville by 1998, Atlanta by 1999 and Minneapolis-St. Paul and Columbus, Ohio, by 2000 is ratified next week as expected, next season will be the Panthers' last in the Atlantic Division. After that, they will be part of the new Southeast Division, along with Carolina, Tampa Bay, Washington and - beginning in 1999 - Atlanta.

On June 25, the NHL Board of Governors will meet in New York to vote on the Expansion Committee's recommendations. A three-fourths vote, or 20 teams, is required for admission into the league.
So let's blame Mr. Bettman for something that more than three-fourths of the NHL's teams wanted. This takes care of the forays into Minnesota (part 2), Atlanta (part 2), Nashville and Columbus.

Minnesota North Stars to Dallas? Norm Green was looking to get out of Minnesota, and that was after the previous owners ditched the team and setup an expansion franchise in San Jose in 1991.

Franchises awarded to Miami (Florida Panthers) and Anaheim (Ducks)?

Franchises awarded to Tampa Bay and Ottawa?

Franchise awarded to San Jose?

Timeline
San Jose awarded franchise in late 1990.
Franchises awarded to Ottawa and Tampa Bay in 1991
Franchises awarded to Florida and Anaheim in December, 1992
Norm Green negotiating to move the North Stars out of Minnesota throughout 1992 and announced move to Dallas at beginning of March, 1993
Gary Bettman takes over as Commissioner of NHL 1 February, 1993.

That only leaves Raleigh, Phoenix and Los Angeles on the list. Since the Kings were awarded the Los Angeles expansion franchise in 1966, I don't think Bettman has anything to do with that. Then again, with the "Next 6" expansion, the Flyers are the only team from that expansion that never faced one iota of financial difficulty. Yet I certainly don't see anyone blaming Clarence Campbell for his "failed" expansion, where one of the teams went Tango Uniform after relocating (Seals/Barons), another three had large financial difficulties with one relocating (Blues, Penguins, Stars), one filed bankruptcy just to get rid of their fraudulent owner (Kings), and only one that has been solid (Flyers).

Raleigh? Phoenix? Just point to the owners. Karmanos couldn't survive in Hartford without a new arena, and the State of Connecticut didn't care, so they moved. Shekarow couldn't afford the losses in Winnipeg without a new arena, and the team was sold to the highest bidder. Minnesota almost got the Jets, but the owner/operator of the Phoenix Suns, Colangelo, ended up with the team.

And none of this has anything to do with worrying about a preseason (or during the early 1990's the regular season neutral site games). This is the Business of Hockey forums. Fan support of a game (preseason or regular season) where neither team is the "home" team does not necessarily relate to "growing the game".

For the very last point, I'd suggest looking at the "hockey history" of each market on that list. Each of the listed markets had some semblance of minor league hockey history, save the Florida franchises.
 

LeftCoast

Registered User
Aug 1, 2006
9,052
304
Vancouver
2nd worst case scenario is the NHL folds the Coyotes, and goes looking for an expansion candidate to even things up. There is no difference between hanging on to the Coyotes for 2 or 3 years, and getting X dollars for the sale, versus folding the Coyotes and getting X dollars for an expansion franchise 2 or 3 years down the road. Yes, you'd have unbalanced schedules, with one conference having 14 teams and the other having 15.

Worst case scenario is the NHL folds the Coyotes and another team next spring. The result is 4 divisions of 7 teams each. It's nicely balanced, and we'd see fewer 4th line goons, with their positions being taken by better players from the folded teams.

Actually, folding the team is the absolute worst case scenario. There is absolutely no way the NHL would do this, relocation is much preferred to contraction / expansion.

  • The NHL has now invested more in Phoenix - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they are approaching $200M - than they would get from expansion fees.
  • Contraction would send a chilling message to the market (for expansion) and devalue all of the teams in the league. The Phoenix and Atlanta situations are already doing this, but contraction would be even worse.
  • The NHL would not want to poison the expansion market by using up an expansion city just to replace a team they folded. When the league chooses to expand they want to bring in new money, not just pay back the sunk costs from the Phoenix franchise.
  • Gary Bettman has put a lot of his personal stake into Glendale. Relocation would be blow, but folding the team would be total failure.


The upside to the whole protracted process with Glendale is that the NHL must have a stalking horse purchase / relocation bid in order to keep the pressure on Glendale to negotiate in good faith on the lease. This stalking horse bid can also be used (as with TNSE) to measure the viability of a future expansion or ownership group for other struggling franchises. It's good to have demand.
 

rkp

Registered User
Mar 31, 2011
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2,271
Actually, folding the team is the absolute worst case scenario. There is absolutely no way the NHL would do this, relocation is much preferred to contraction / expansion.

  • The NHL has now invested more in Phoenix - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they are approaching $200M - than they would get from expansion fees.
  • Contraction would send a chilling message to the market (for expansion) and devalue all of the teams in the league. The Phoenix and Atlanta situations are already doing this, but contraction would be even worse.
  • The NHL would not want to poison the expansion market by using up an expansion city just to replace a team they folded. When the league chooses to expand they want to bring in new money, not just pay back the sunk costs from the Phoenix franchise.
  • Gary Bettman has put a lot of his personal stake into Glendale. Relocation would be blow, but folding the team would be total failure.


The upside to the whole protracted process with Glendale is that the NHL must have a stalking horse purchase / relocation bid in order to keep the pressure on Glendale to negotiate in good faith on the lease. This stalking horse bid can also be used (as with TNSE) to measure the viability of a future expansion or ownership group for other struggling franchises. It's good to have demand.


kinda disagree with you..they were 10 minutes from being relocated last season...so it doesnt seem bettman is afraid of pulling the plug if he has to....if glendale had not put up another 25 mill...they were gone
 

Grudy0

Registered User
Mar 16, 2011
1,878
122
Maryland
Actually, folding the team is the absolute worst case scenario. There is absolutely no way the NHL would do this, relocation is much preferred to contraction / expansion.

  • The NHL has now invested more in Phoenix - correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they are approaching $200M - than they would get from expansion fees.
  • Contraction would send a chilling message to the market (for expansion) and devalue all of the teams in the league. The Phoenix and Atlanta situations are already doing this, but contraction would be even worse.
  • The NHL would not want to poison the expansion market by using up an expansion city just to replace a team they folded. When the league chooses to expand they want to bring in new money, not just pay back the sunk costs from the Phoenix franchise.
  • Gary Bettman has put a lot of his personal stake into Glendale. Relocation would be blow, but folding the team would be total failure.


The upside to the whole protracted process with Glendale is that the NHL must have a stalking horse purchase / relocation bid in order to keep the pressure on Glendale to negotiate in good faith on the lease. This stalking horse bid can also be used (as with TNSE) to measure the viability of a future expansion or ownership group for other struggling franchises. It's good to have demand.
kinda disagree with you..they were 10 minutes from being relocated last season...so it doesnt seem bettman is afraid of pulling the plug if he has to....if glendale had not put up another 25 mill...they were gone
I don't believe you two are in disagreement...

LeftCoast mentions that the "stalking horse bid" is keeping the City of Glendale funding the arena management fee (read: subsidy) to the NHL. During the summer of '10, yes the Coyotes were about 10 minutes away from being moved, until the CoG agreed to fund the losses. That's because TNSE was still behind the scenes waiting to purchase the team...

Fast forward another year, and the exact same scenario played out again, but this time the CoG knew TNSE was in the background waiting to swoop in.

Next year, the NHL isn't as lucky, unless some groups start to come forward to replace TNSE as the stalking bidder. And since it appears the CoG may not have the intestinal or testicular fortitude to fund the losses again, and since it appears no one is interested in keeping the Coyotes in Glendale as everyone has balked, it's likely we will hear much more about the interest in the pruchase of the Coyotes this season.
 

SoCalShark

Registered User
Apr 1, 2007
217
0
The OC
Do some Google mining and tell me how well pre-season games were received in:
- Phoenix
- Nashville
- Atlanta
- Miami
- Raleigh
- San Jose
- Anaheim
- Los Angeles
- Columbus
- Dallas
- Tampa Bay

And any other similar markets. Go show me how these markets were "tested" and how well they did.

Bogus logic here. Pre-season neutral site locations mean absolutely nothing. This is actually the "growing the game"....Gary took it to a whole new level and started awarding...NO!!...not pre-season games....but FRANCHISES to locations that would have been on the "Pre-Season Game Radar".

Not saying that any of this testing was done in the past (i.e. before Bettman) but the NHL has to look for a plan B now that Winnipeg is no longer there for the NHL in that capacity. "Bogus logic here" this isn't a debate just a discussion, lighten up!
 

cbcwpg

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May 18, 2010
20,099
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Between the Pipes
Just throwing this out there and seeing if it sticks to the ceiling, but has anyone ever looked at revamping the old arena where the Coyotes use to play?

According to comments... the sitelines were not all that great but maybe the location was OK. So if the location is better than in Glendale, is it possible to renovate the arena to make it suitable for the Coyotes. Given that the goal here is to avoid the "worst case scenario" and keep the team in Phoenix, is this an option.
 
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Space Herpe

Arch Duke of Raleigh
Aug 29, 2008
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0
Okay...

So...

The CoG doesn't pony up $Xmillion during the 12-13 season.

What happens to the Yotes?
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
Just throwing this out there and seeing if it sticks to the ceiling, but has anyone ever looked at revamping the old arena where the Coyotes use to play?

According to comments... the sitelines were not all that great but maybe the location was OK. So if the location is better than in Glendale, is it possible to renovate the arena to make it suitable for the Coyotes. Given that the goal here is to avoid the "worst case scenario" and keep the team in Phoenix, is this an option.

No, the AWA wouldnt work at all as the Coyotes would be denied access to the revenues required to sustain a franchise; wouldnt have any control; dates would also be a problem. The only other building suitable but requiring massive reno's would be the old Veterans Memorial Arena, where the original WHA Roadrunners & IHL team played out of, a location that IMO the team shouldve used when they moved to Phoenix in 96 instead of the AWA for a whole host of very good reasons. Abandoning the job is not an option. Financial suicide to do so at this juncture, though of course many argue that staying there or in Arizona period is anyway. With the job the owners at least have a fighting chance, provided they can win back the fans, corporate sector, and substantially increase non-hockey revenues. The lease itself is no longer an issue per se', as witness the COG's more than generous contortions in trying to provide as much support as is possible without running afoul of the Gift Clause's.
 

goyotes

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May 4, 2007
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0
Arizona
Okay...

So...

The CoG doesn't pony up $Xmillion during the 12-13 season.

What happens to the Yotes?

They move to a NHL hockey ready arena in another City with an ownership group willing to pay probably upwards of $200 million. They either get it done sometime next season, or the Coyotes are gone.
 

goyotes

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May 4, 2007
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Arizona
No, the AWA wouldnt work at all as the Coyotes would be denied access to the revenues required to sustain a franchise; wouldnt have any control; dates would also be a problem. The only other building suitable but requiring massive reno's would be the old Veterans Memorial Arena, where the original WHA Roadrunners & IHL team played out of, a location that IMO the team shouldve used when they moved to Phoenix in 96 instead of the AWA for a whole host of very good reasons. Abandoning the job is not an option. Financial suicide to do so at this juncture, though of course many argue that staying there or in Arizona period is anyway. With the job the owners at least have a fighting chance, provided they can win back the fans, corporate sector, and substantially increase non-hockey revenues. The lease itself is no longer an issue per se', as witness the COG's more than generous contortions in trying to provide as much support as is possible without running afoul of the Gift Clause's.

If AWA could have been renovated (it was estimated to cost around $60 million) to correct the 3500 obstructed view seats, and the Suns would have been willing to play nice with the Coyote ownership, that would have been ideal. It is downtown, and way better than Westgate for a host of reasons. If all that had happened, people would be talking about Phoenix as a "success" just as they do with LA and Dallas. I know it is hard to believe for most, but this market could have really developed into a solid hockey market had a series of unfortunate errors not occurred over the last 15 years. But what happened has happened, and the market would need some real investment by a solid ownership group, and some very good success on the ice beyond just making the playoffs, for Phoenix to ever be considered a stable, much less successful market for the NHL.
 

JMROWE

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Apr 2, 2010
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Hamilton Ontario
The only person I can see putting up 200 million + for the coyotes is Jim Balsille & also I think the NHL. is at the end of its rope when it comes to the coyotes so they just might let Balsille buy the coyotes & move them to Hamilton & tell MLSE. / Buffalo look where at the end of our rope with coyotes so let us all get together make a deal move the coyotes to Hamilton so we can put this fiasco all behind us .
 

JMROWE

Registered User
Apr 2, 2010
1,372
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Hamilton Ontario
Hamilton might be the only option for the coyotes right now .

Hamilton - Copps Coliseum needs a few upgrades but other than that Hamilton is all set to go for the NHL.

Quebec City - Political delays might set back Quebec City another year or 2 before they get a shovel in the ground for there new arena .

With the bad economy in the USA. we might not see teams in Kansas City , Houston , Portland & Seattle for a whille until the USA. economy turns around .
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Well goyotes, theres the rub; the Suns werent about to "play nice". It would almost be as funny as Jim Carreys' portrayal of Lemony Snicket and a Series of Unfortunate Events over the orphaning of pups, human or canine, if it wasnt so sad in terms of lost potential. And yet here we are, still waiting stuck in Hangar 18 hoping for a miracle, and Im a little too old & long in the tooth to be believing in miracles, faeries & leprechauns, despite the overwhelming evidence that they all do actually exist. :)

Hamilton might be the only option for the coyotes right now.

Right now, and more than ever upon conclusion of the 2011-12 season if nothing transpires in terms of a local sale. The only place a franchise would be worth north of $200M+++ is Southern Ontario, and the only building able to make-do is Copps. I cannot imagine any scenario whereby the ACC would be used as a temporary home while a half a billion or more is spent building a new facility to compete directly with the ACC out at Woodbine, Downsview or wherever else smack dab within the midst of the Leafs territory.
 

Confucius

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Feb 8, 2009
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Worst case scenario, the team keeps staying in Phoenix year after year. Fans continue to get in for $20 and the rest of us can just keep paying through the teeth, while Phoenix gets relatively speaking free hockey.
 

Canadiens1958

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Arranging the Dominos

Taking this further and looking at the big, long term picture.

The NHL has to come up with a clearly defined plan for the GTA / Southern Ontario market. Until it does, the NHL will have to deal with all the attendant stop gap issues with a Dutch Boy approach. After Phoenix is resolved one way or another which franchise is next ? Florida, Tampa Bay, NY Islanders are fragile and some of the others are not that far removed. Dallas, Nashville, New Jersey, Buffalo, Minnesota and Carolina have the potential to falter. We saw what happens in Canada when the economy falters. If the US economy does not bounce back what happens to the vulnerable teams. If the Us economy bounces back how do the weaker Canadian teams manage once the Canadian dollar drops?

The NHL and the "Stalking Horse", an approach that works once or twice, but do not expect people with money to fall for it every 2 or 3 years when another NHL team enters the critical stage.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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Worst case scenario, the team keeps staying in Phoenix year after year. Fans continue to get in for $20 and the rest of us can just keep paying through the teeth, while Phoenix gets relatively speaking free hockey.

.... insuring a lock on Gary Bettmans' eventual induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame for such a munificent, magnanimous & magnificent an act of benevolence. And you have a problem with this HH?. :laugh:
 

Ryan34222

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Mar 19, 2010
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Hamilton
The only person I can see putting up 200 million + for the coyotes is Jim Balsille & also I think the NHL. is at the end of its rope when it comes to the coyotes so they just might let Balsille buy the coyotes & move them to Hamilton & tell MLSE. / Buffalo look where at the end of our rope with coyotes so let us all get together make a deal move the coyotes to Hamilton so we can put this fiasco all behind us .
me thinks Saint Jimmy has no more interest in buyin a Team unfortunately.

After the court ruling he said something like, all he wanted was a fair shot in court and he got it..
i took that as 'thats it thats all folks'..
 

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
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.... insuring a lock on Gary Bettmans' eventual induction into the Hockey Hall of Fame for such a munificent, magnanimous & magnificent an act of benevolence. And you have a problem with this HH?. :laugh:

Maybe insuring a lockout.....:laugh:
 

Confucius

There is no try, Just do
Feb 8, 2009
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Toronto
me thinks Saint Jimmy has no more interest in buyin a Team unfortunately.

After the court ruling he said something like, all he wanted was a fair shot in court and he got it..
i took that as 'thats it thats all folks'..

Sort of like the Glendale people not wanting to let go of JR.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
36,763
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The NHL and the "Stalking Horse", an approach that works once or twice, but do not expect people with money to fall for it every 2 or 3 years when another NHL team enters the critical stage.

Yes, I completely agree. The NHL will forever be running around with bucket & mop in hand in reaction to spill's as opposed to being proactive, as they should be, in mitigating potential "accidents". The Stalking Horse gambit wears thin, an ethereal specter easily dispelled when the light of day shines on it. An act that can grow tired quickly & often creates a lot more acrimony than the exercise is ever worth.

Maybe insuring a lockout.....:laugh:

Man, thats the last thing in the World this league needs..... :scared:
 

LeftCoast

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Aug 1, 2006
9,052
304
Vancouver
Yes, I completely agree. The NHL will forever be running around with bucket & mop in hand in reaction to spill's as opposed to being proactive, as they should be, in mitigating potential "accidents". The Stalking Horse gambit wears thin, an ethereal specter easily dispelled when the light of day shines on it. An act that can grow tired quickly & often creates a lot more acrimony than the exercise is ever worth.



Man, thats the last thing in the World this league needs..... :scared:

It's Gary's favorite tactic, and given the real reticence for most communities to pony up 8 or 9 figure amounts to subsidize professional sports teams, it's a pretty good tactic.

  • Jim Balsillie was the stalking horse during the Penguin's bankruptcy sale (except that he thought he had a legitimate offer).
  • "Boots" DelBagio and his Kansas City connection was originally the stalking horse player in Nashville, except that Balsillie put himself in the picture and Gary Bettman had to change the lineup a bit, bringing Boots into the local coalition.
  • TSNE was simultaneously the stalking horse for both Atlanta and Phoenix.
  • Tom Gagliardi has a stalking horse offer for the Dallas Stars.

And unless the NHL, Glendale and Hulsizer are on the verge of a bulletproof deal, Gary will almost certainly bring in another outside party to apply pressure on Glendale. Without TNSE, there is no way Glendale would have paid the $25M to keep the 'Yotes another year.
 

Killion

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Feb 19, 2010
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It's Gary's favorite tactic.. unless the NHL, Glendale and Hulsizer are on the verge of a bulletproof deal, Gary will almost certainly bring in another outside party to apply pressure on Glendale. Without TNSE, there is no way Glendale would have paid the $25M to keep the 'Yotes another year.

And look how thats turned out?. Balsillie is persona non grata, Del Biaggio pounding hot metal into license plates, the Jury is still out on Gagliardi in Dallas (though in here in Vancouver with a none too flattering Verdict), leaving but one triumph, if you can call the 2nd loss of Atlanta a "Victory" by any stretch of the imagination. Sure the COG ponied up, though just how much pressure was applied to the COG to cough up,be they threatened and or frightened by the specter of TNSE's stalking is questionable, the merry spendthrifts they seem to be.
 

goyotes

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May 4, 2007
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0
Arizona
And look how thats turned out?. Balsillie is persona non grata, Del Biaggio pounding hot metal into license plates, the Jury is still out on Gagliardi in Dallas (though in here in Vancouver with a none too flattering Verdict), leaving but one triumph, if you can call the 2nd loss of Atlanta a "Victory" by any stretch of the imagination. Sure the COG ponied up, though just how much pressure was applied to the COG to cough up,be they threatened and or frightened by the specter of TNSE's stalking is questionable, the merry spendthrifts they seem to be.

Remember, the $25 million to CoG puts up removes from them the obligation to run the arena at a cost THEY estimate at approximately $17 million (not saying I agree with the estimate - it is what they claim as the cost on average). They also get rent, plus all the sale's tax associated with the increased business at Westgate by having the Coyotes present 42 nights a year, and potential lost sales taxes if businesses leave because the Coyotes leave. Even Liebo on the council sees the payment as better than the alternative (although he remains against the MH deal that included purchasing the parking rights).

All is quite on the Southwestern front since the ATL move. We die a slow death in the heat of summer. Not even any interesting trades to get excited about, and we may have our bones picked in the form of tender offers.:rant:
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
36,763
3,211
....and we may have our bones picked in the form of tender offers.:rant:

Yes, its' quiet, far too quiet for comfort. Im unfortunately a life-long Leaf fan so maybe you should try what most of us wound up doing in order to deal with disappointment, inactivity, watch your beloveds being ripped apart by Vultures off-season, real hockey teams during. Tequila. Copious amounts of tequila, And Camels'. Camel's by the truck load. Unfiltered. Midnights at the Oasis. Harachi's & ukulele's..... after awhile, it really doesnt matter. Comfortably numb.
 

Hamilton Tigers

Registered User
Mar 20, 2010
1,374
4
Hamilton
If Balsillie is done with the NHL, then wouldn't you think he'd be offering opinions and comments every now and then? Surely he's been sought by the media for such comments.

I think his silence and quick exit from the scene immediately after the BK hearings concluded just might be an indicator of something. :hockey:
 

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