Phoenix, worst case scenario

[RR]

Not much of a (closure) one though. Still all kinds of finger-pointing, acrimony, rumors & innuendo's swirling around that crater.... If Gary Bettman remains true to his words that "Atlanta was a one-off" then all this talk about viable relo options could well be moot, and hope still floats the boat in Phoenix...... Thanks for the update, and any idea what the ST's renewal rates are at for 2011-12?.

If you listen to the, "my rep told me..." or, "my friend's fiancee whose ex-husband is dating a woman who used to be married to the 2nd cousin of a Coyotes ticket sales manager..." rumors the most optimistic I've heard is a 90% renewal rate along with >1,000 new STH.

If you want hard, accurate numbers, no clue.

Hope that helps.

 

[goyotes]

I agree with RR. What we hear is the renewals and new sales are "solid". Does that mean the base is now 6,000 or so? What I do know is that if a new owner had been announced before the end of the season, even with a bad playoff performance, STs would be substantially better. I think at around the top of attendance back in the old AWA days, season ticket numbers were around 11,000.

At 5 or 6k, there is no point in arguing that fan support exists. If MH does take over, I think he is hoping to get the ST holder base back up immediately to over 10,000. The real challenge will be the corporate sponsorship dollar. Phoenix isn't a hugh corporate headquarters base. Atlanta is far stronger than Phoenix in that regard.

All I know is everyday of uncertainty is another strike against the team turning around its fortunes.

 

[Killion]

I agree with RR.

You'd better agree with him if you ever wanna post another thought on these boards goyotes.

Hope that helps.

Ya. Thanks for shining a light on that one. Crystal.......

According to the ESPN Fan Poll in Phoenix, the Coyotes give the "best bang for the buck" of the lot. What a shame ownerships not in place to capitalize on some positives through the summer.

 

[Crayton]

Would there be any point in splitting time between two cities?

Playing 20 games each in Houston and Kansas City would help lift prices a little by decreasing supply.

This would also be opportunity for each city to drum up a single ownership group.

 

[WingsFan95]

The Houston K.C. Travellers??




I think Quebec City gets done, I feel that arena will start construction this fall and a team will be moved in 2012 to their to play temporarily in the crap shack.

 

[saffronleaf]

What about Milwaukee?

The NBA team has an arena. Wisconsin is a great state for hockey.

 

[Alex The Loyal]

What about Milwaukee?

The NBA team has an arena. Wisconsin is a great state for hockey.

Some have said it's saturated. They'd have to compete with the Packers (Good luck with that), the Brewers and the Bucks, oh and College Sports.

Though I do agree, Hockey in Wisconsin would be great. Though it's probably too late sadly. Kind of like with Seattle. If the NHL wants to succeed over there, they have to get a team their before the NBA wises up.

 

[LeftCoast]

Would there be any point in splitting time between two cities?

Playing 20 games each in Houston and Kansas City would help lift prices a little by decreasing supply.

This would also be opportunity for each city to drum up a single ownership group.

Players Association would freak.

 

[PaganKnight]

The Houston K.C. Travellers??




I think Quebec City gets done, I feel that arena will start construction this fall and a team will be moved in 2012 to their to play temporarily in the crap shack.

Poeple can correct me if i'm wrong but the problem right now is not the arena the arena will be build by Quebec city and the province of Quebec. The main problem's in the selling of the name in the arena to Quebecor without offering it to other poeple (mainly the Bell, Molson) But anyway the bill i'm pretty sure the bill will be vote in september Charest did not do anything because PQ was broken because of the decision of Pauline Marois to follow the project. Charest just wanted to make the more damage to the PQ.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Poeple can correct me if i'm wrong but the problem right now is not the arena the arena will be build by Quebec city and the province of Quebec. The main problem's in the selling of the name in the arena to Quebecor without offering it to other poeple (mainly the Bell, Molson) But anyway the bill i'm pretty sure the bill will be vote in september Charest did not do anything because PQ was broken because of the decision of Pauline Marois to follow the project. Charest just wanted to make the more damage to the PQ.

I thought this whole deal relied on part of that? Not that the naming rights would be sold to Quebecor ...but they would hold the rights to sell to somebody else. That's ducats in Quebecor's pockets.....for doing nothing and nobody else was allowed to throw their hat in the ring to get that free money.

That along with, supposedly, a myriad of other issues seem to make this deal....well....I'll just say it. Like every other deal made within Quebec...this one is just getting more attention because it is hockey related. The politics in that province are riddled with corruption....this deal is no different, it is just being reported on.

 

[Jeffrey93]

That was not my point, meaning that KC was mentioned as a relocation spot for Islanders and the Penguins, since the lock-out. Houston was a possible relocation spot for the Oilers some time ago. London, Ontario has never been mentioned individually except when discussing Southern Ontario as a whole. Pre-season games that have occurred on a regular basis in non-NHL locations like Quebec and Las Vegas which have been mentioned as relocation targets. Sharks and Kings have had pre-season games in California cities with similar populations as London, Ontario.

London, Ont. - 352,395
Fresno, CA - 502,303
Bakersfield, CA - 347,483
Sacramento, CA - 466,488
Ontario, CA - 170,373

I was referring to locations that have not had annual pre-season games that have been mentioned as relocation targets now having a pre-season game this year. The 2009 NY Islander / King game in KC was rumored to be a market test for Wang.

Do some Google mining and tell me how well pre-season games were received in:
- Phoenix
- Nashville
- Atlanta
- Miami
- Raleigh
- San Jose
- Anaheim
- Los Angeles
- Columbus
- Dallas
- Tampa Bay

And any other similar markets. Go show me how these markets were "tested" and how well they did.

Bogus logic here. Pre-season neutral site locations mean absolutely nothing. This is actually the "growing the game"....Gary took it to a whole new level and started awarding...NO!!...not pre-season games....but FRANCHISES to locations that would have been on the "Pre-Season Game Radar".

 

[Jeffrey93]

Uh oh. Now youve' done it. London Ontario; nearly 500,000 strong including surrounding environs; home to several H.O.'s in the IT & Bio-Med sectors; Ford, Toyota & aftermarket mfgs' by the dozen in the auto sector; 3M, the UWO; one of the highest income levels per household in Canada; the John Labatt Center holding 9100 for hockey with the possibility of reno's & buildouts to accommodate another 5500. Convenient to the 401.

That building could be doubled in size easily....because there is room for it. That thing in Winnipeg would be jealous.

But seriously....can we not rile up the wing nuts that thing any Canadian city over 250,000 can support an NHL team? Even sarcasm gets them going!

 

[Jeffrey93]

Let's stop beating around the bush here...it's not the NHL (who just voted to unanimously allow Winnipeg in the club) that doesn't want a team in Winnipeg.. It's YOU.

What exactly were their other options? When you only have one....it is a pretty easy decision.

I want you to post a link to a genuine article where the NHL is quoted as saying " We really don't want Winnipeg ".

Atlanta has been looking for a buyer for over 5 years. How long has TNSE been looking for an NHL team?
There is your "link".

The other thing I want is every other city from now on that is looking at getting a team has to have a ticket drive like Winnipeg. Don't care if it's in Canada or the U.S.... Show me the money.

Hilarious. The only reason that is required is because the NHL wanted it....because there are so many factors going against a team in Winnipeg..they needed guarantees. Other markets that the NHL actually wants....they don't need to go through that crap.

As far as Phoenix... We all know the what the worst case is... Pack your bags.

Pack their bags to where? From what a very few posters have told me....Winnipeg could handle the Coyotes too right?

 

[knorthern knight]

According to the ESPN Fan Poll in Phoenix, the Coyotes give the "best bang for the buck" of the lot. What a shame ownerships not in place to capitalize on some positives through the summer.

Errrr, uhmmm, I think that "best bang for the buck" might be more appropriately described as "the least buck for the bang", due to ridiculously low ticket prices.

• According to court documents from the Coyotes 2009 bankruptcy filing posted at
  http://fromtherink.sbnprivate.com/2009/7/28/966675/calculating-the-coyotes-67-million the Coyotes made $13.328 million ticket revenue for the 2008-2009 season
• According to http://espn.go.com/nhl/attendance/_/year/2009 the Coyotes attendance for the 2008-2009 season was 609,907.
• Fire up the spreadsheet...
  $13.328 million / 609,907 tickets = approx $21.85 average ticket price!!! Hello!!!
• Actually, it was even worse, because the ticket revenue included exhibition games, but the ESPN site didn't include attendance for exhibition games. I estimate average ticket price around $21

This is why Phoenix is losing money hand over fist.

 

[uhlaw97]

I think that Houston has a sporting chance!

Gang,

If the 'Yotes were to be relocated to Houston, they would have to be owned by Les Alexander IF they wanted to play in the 18,000 seat hockey-ready Toyota Center (home of the AHL Houston Aeros).

That's why the decision to play a pre-season game in Reliant Stadium is so intriguing. Besides just gauging fan interest in NHL hockey in town, it might also be a "test" to see whether or not Reliant could be configured for NHL hockey, and if so, whether billionaire Houston Texans owner Bob McNair, or perhaps current billionaire AHL Aeros owner Chuck Watson might be ALTERNATE choices to purchase the franchise over Les Alexander.

In any event, with a Metropolitan Area population of over FIVE MILLION, the media market in Houston is far too large for the NHL to ignore, especially when compared to the alternatives that have been discussed on this string.

As for hockey-specific interest, consider this:

The old WHA Aeros with Gordie Howe (see the Avatar) used to OUTDRAW the NBA Houston Rockets in Houston by a factor of two or three thousand PER GAME!!!

NEVER underestimate interest in NHL hockey in Houston. Remember, as America's energy capital, and the home to the second most Fortune 500 company HQ in the country behind only NYC, A LOT of transplanted Northerners live in Houston, and they provide the city with a READY-MADE fan base for NHL hockey.

 

[knorthern knight]

Poeple can correct me if i'm wrong but the problem right now is not the arena the arena will be build by Quebec city and the province of Quebec. The main problem's in the selling of the name in the arena to Quebecor without offering it to other poeple (mainly the Bell, Molson)

The main problem is who gets the arena management contract. A stand-alone NHL team is NOT viable if it has to pay going market rate to the arena, and doesn't get the concession and parking revenue. That was a major reason the first incarnation of the Winnipeg Jets failed in the 1990's. The current version will be owned by the owner of the arena. For Nordiques II to be financially viable, they MUST be owned by the same person who owns or manages the arena. Since PKP appears to be the only local candidate with enough money to buy a franchise, he must be given the management rights to make the team viable. That was the reason for no bidding on the contract.

Also, another bidder might offer better terms on an arena management deal, but would not get an NHL team. Between the Ramparts and selling 10,000 seats for concerts/etc, another potential manager might not want an NHL team. Think ASG in Atlanta.

 

[Jeffrey93]

Gang,

If the 'Yotes were to be relocated to Houston, they would have to be owned by Les Alexander IF they wanted to play in the 18,000 seat hockey-ready Toyota Center (home of the AHL Houston Aeros).

That's why the decision to play a pre-season game in Reliant Stadium is so intriguing. Besides just gauging fan interest in NHL hockey in town, it might also be a "test" to see whether or not Reliant could be configured for NHL hockey, and if so, whether billionaire Houston Texans owner Bob McNair, or perhaps current AHL Aeros owner Chuck Watson might be an ALTERNATE choices to purchase the franchise over Les Alexander.

In any event, with a Metropolitan Area population of over FIVE MILLION, the media market in Houston is far too large for the NHL to ignore, especially when compared to the alternatives that have been discussed on this string.

As for hockey-specific interest, consider this:

The old WHA Aeros with Gordie Howe (see the Avatar) used to OUTDRAW the NBA Houston Rockets in Houston by a factor of two or three thousand PER GAME!!!

NEVER underestimate interest in NHL hockey in Houston. Remember, as America's energy capital, and the home to the second most Fortune 500 company HQ in the country behind only NYC, A LOT of transplanted Northerners live in Houston, and they provide the city with a READY-MADE fan base for NHL hockey.

Take all your characters in this post....fire them in a reality machine....and what gets puked out is .... 'It is a suitable venue in a large market'

And that is it. I swear....that is IT!

Nobody gives a rat's rear end how a market does for pre-season games.

The BEST markets know these games suck and won't pay top dollar for them anyway. So I could formulate a SOLID argument that the lower attended or lower gate revenue neutral site games would signal the better hockey market.

If you ask folks in Cleveland to pay $120 a seat to see a pre-season game of St. Louis against Miami.....well....the less people that show up...the better I think that market is. Because no sane person would pay more than twenty bucks to see that game.

 

[knorthern knight]

2nd worst case scenario is the NHL folds the Coyotes, and goes looking for an expansion candidate to even things up. There is no difference between hanging on to the Coyotes for 2 or 3 years, and getting X dollars for the sale, versus folding the Coyotes and getting X dollars for an expansion franchise 2 or 3 years down the road. Yes, you'd have unbalanced schedules, with one conference having 14 teams and the other having 15.

Worst case scenario is the NHL folds the Coyotes and another team next spring. The result is 4 divisions of 7 teams each. It's nicely balanced, and we'd see fewer 4th line goons, with their positions being taken by better players from the folded teams.

 

[Jeffrey93]

2nd worst case scenario is the NHL folds the Coyotes, and goes looking for an expansion candidate to even things up. There is no difference between hanging on to the Coyotes for 2 or 3 years, and getting X dollars for the sale, versus folding the Coyotes and getting X dollars for an expansion franchise 2 or 3 years down the road. Yes, you'd have unbalanced schedules, with one conference having 14 teams and the other having 15.

Worst case scenario is the NHL folds the Coyotes and another team next spring. The result is 4 divisions of 7 teams each. It's nicely balanced, and we'd see fewer 4th line goons, with their positions being taken by better players from the folded teams.

Could you name some current "goons" that the removal of a team would get rid of?
The "goons" of today are basically the Shanahan's of the "old days".....guys that can play but also rough it up. The player that can ONLY fight went away about 8 years ago.

If you're on the 4th line....you are a player of many different sorts. Several All-Stars were "fourth liners" at some point.......the NHL doesn't allow "goons" anymore. So lets not pretend those players even continue to exist.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

What exactly were their other options? When you only have one....it is a pretty easy decision.

Wait. You were the guy who regularly contended that Winnipeg was only one of several options for relocation. You even went on to say that WPG was likely last on the list. And now you are conceding that there werent any other options. Noted.

Atlanta has been looking for a buyer for over 5 years. How long has TNSE been looking for an NHL team?
There is your "link".

TSNE has been looking for an NHL team for less time than Jim Balsillie. How do you like them apples?

Hilarious. The only reason that is required is because the NHL wanted it....because there are so many factors going against a team in Winnipeg..they needed guarantees. Other markets that the NHL actually wants....they don't need to go through that crap.

So when Hamilton did their pre-emptive season ticket drive (which was less sucessful than WPGs) were they doing it because the NHL wanted it? Would you consider Hamilton a market that the NHL "actually wants"? Judging by their wretched AHL attendance, some might say that HAMILTON has several factors going against it. That and the fact that they have no owner or building. Phoenix to Quebec City.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Some have said it's saturated. They'd have to compete with the Packers (Good luck with that), the Brewers and the Bucks, oh and College Sports.

I'm one of 'em that says that. Oversaturation of the market is the main reason why I don't see Milwaukee getting an NHL team, much as its the reason why Indianapolis won't get a team either. Both are lovely sports towns, but they're just not big enough to handle more major teams. Milwaukee's arguably more than maxed out already with their support of (either in the city or in-state) teams in the NFL, MLB, NBA, AHL, and with the Wisconsin Badgers and Marquette Golden Eagles, and Indy's definitely maxed out with their support of teams in the NFL, NBA, International League, USHL, and their support of Butler, Notre Dame, Indiana, and Purdue.

Putting a brand new NHL team in either market would just be foolhardy at this point in time, as it would just put them head-to-head against already established, though struggling, NBA teams and likely result in a wash for both teams and low profits at best. Quebec City, Houston, Kansas City, and probably a handful of other cities all present better chances for landing an expansion or relocation franchise in the near to immediate future, and the arguments for putting a team in a market like Seattle or Hamilton make more sense if they get better arenas.

 

[RonJon]

Could you name some current "goons" that the removal of a team would get rid of?
The "goons" of today are basically the Shanahan's of the "old days".....guys that can play but also rough it up. The player that can ONLY fight went away about 8 years ago.

.......the NHL doesn't allow "goons" anymore. So lets not pretend those players even continue to exist.

Colton Orr???? Derek Boogaard (rip)??? You compare these players to Shanahan? The credit I give these 2 is that they knew their role and would not back down. The dangerous goon of today are the hit and run cowards like Downey and Cooke. Need more players?

 

[Mungman]

1)Atlanta has been looking for a buyer for over 5 years. How long has TNSE been looking for an NHL team?
There is your "link".

2)Hilarious. The only reason that is required is because the NHL wanted it....because there are so many factors going against a team in Winnipeg..they needed guarantees. Other markets that the NHL actually wants....they don't need to go through that crap.

3)Pack their bags to where? From what a very few posters have told me....Winnipeg could handle the Coyotes too right?

Ok, for point one I think your "link" actually shows the opposite. If the NHL didn't want WPG then they would have told them to pound salt at some point in the last five years

Your second point is patently false, GB and MC both said that the drive was requested by TNSE. The BoG was interested in what happened in it, but it was not a league requirement

Finally for number three, I think you need to get your hyperbole detector adjusted. There's a shop that can do that at the local mall.

 

[Eaglepride*]

Well if they relocate it will be a fight between Houston and Hamilton. Some years from now I can see both with and maybe qc with a NHL team.

 

[cbcwpg]

What exactly were their other options? When you only have one....it is a pretty easy decision.

Hilarious. The only reason that is required is because the NHL wanted it....because there are so many factors going against a team in Winnipeg..they needed guarantees. Other markets that the NHL actually wants....they don't need to go through that crap.

If the NHL really didn't want a team in Winnipeg, they could have just folded the Thrashers. There are other options. TNSE sold thier business plan to the NHL and they all approved it.

Yeah it is Hilarious. When J93 is wrong....

Go back and listen to the interviews. The drive for 13000 was done at the insistance of TNSE, NOT the NHL. Bettman was quoted as saying that the NHL did not ask TNSE to have a ticket drive.

But this is OT. Winnipeg has its team, J93 never will, and a year from now we will be watching what happens to the Coyotes. Waiting to see pictures of the dog in drag.